Can Ledger Prevent you from accessing your Hardware wallet?

[IggySe7ven]

Hey Guys,

Sorry If I dont understand something , but I have a question.

So Hardware wallets are supposed to be the safest way to store crypto, but my question is  when using them  for example Ledger , are we still putting our trust in them because we still need to use their software etc.

If lets say they get orders from the government  etc can they prevent us from being able to access or move our crypto  directly or by blocking access to their software.

I also read that it is possible to  get access to our private key ourselves , but we would need to use another 3rd party software to do that.

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[Rath_]

If lets say they get orders from the government  etc can they prevent us from being able to access or move our crypto  directly or by blocking access to their software.

If that ever happened, you would be able to use your Ledger with Electrum anyway. By the way, it provides more sophisticated features than Ledger Live. Ledger has recently added an experimental support for external nodes, so it will be fairly easy to bypass such restrictions once this feature is polished. Getting software updates would be the biggest problem. Unlike other popular hardware wallets, you can't flash the device on your own.

I also read that it is possible to  get access to our private key ourselves , but we would need to use another 3rd party software to do that.

Ledger generates a BIP39 compatible recovery phrase which can be restored in many popular software and hardware wallets. You would be able to restore your wallet easily.

[bitmover]

If lets say they get orders from the government  etc can they prevent us from being able to access or move our crypto  directly or by blocking access to their software.

I also read that it is possible to  get access to our private key ourselves , but we would need to use another 3rd party software to do that.

Ledger generates a BIP39 compatible recovery phrase which can be restored in many popular software and hardware wallets. You would be able to restore your wallet easily.

Rath_ gave the exactly answer to this question.

You can restore your funds in basically any wallet out there.

Ledger and and other hardware wallet are basically just a safe and convenient way to generate your private keys. Once they are generated, you can use those keys in any other software.

if for some reason you lose your device, or if the manufacturer decides not to give updates or even block all the software, you can just download a new third party software to recover your funds.

[IggySe7ven]

Thank you for replies guys, can you please clarify something,  so using recovery phrase we can get access to all BIP39  supported wallets, I read that Electeum  uses other coding language but with a help of 3rd party software we can use BIP39  coding with BIP32,  can this 3rd party software be trusted and also can we actually find out our Private key that is held on ledger or is that too risky?

[ranochigo]

Thank you for replies guys, can you please clarify something,  so using recovery phrase we can get access to all BIP39  supported wallets, I read that Electeum  uses other coding language but with a help of 3rd party software we can use BIP39  coding with BIP32,  can this 3rd party software be trusted and also can we actually find out our Private key that is held on ledger or is that too risky?

Electrum supports BIP39. Confusion stems from the fact that they didn't implement it a long time ago and instead used their own format.


You can use scripts to convert your seed phrases to BIP32 xpub or xpriv. I wouldn't recommend you to use any scripts unless you know exactly what you're doing. Using a BIP39 compatible wallet and sweeping the funds to a new wallet would be a way better idea.

[o_e_l_e_o]

can we actually find out our Private key that is held on ledger or is that too risky?

You cannot directly extract your private keys from a Ledger device. They are stored on the secure element and do not leave the secure element. All unsigned transactions or messages to be signed are passed to the secure element, and then returned to your computer after they have been signed. If you could extract the private keys from the Ledger, then there would be a risk to your keys every time you connected your Ledger to a computer, and the very point of the hardware wallet would be more or less negated.

In order to access your private keys, you must use the 24 word seed phrase which you (hopefully!) wrote down on paper and stored securely when you first set up your Ledger device. You would need to import your seed phrase in to another service such as Electrum or iancoleman.io, and then access your private keys that way. Note that this should only ever be done in an emergency, as exposing your seed phrase to other wallets or websites immediately compromises it and puts all your funds at risk. If you do need to recover from your seed phrase, you should do it on an offline computer and immediately move all your funds to a new wallet.

[bob123]

So Hardware wallets are supposed to be the safest way to store crypto, but my question is  when using them  for example Ledger , are we still putting our trust in them because we still need to use their software etc.

If lets say they get orders from the government  etc can they prevent us from being able to access or move our crypto  directly or by blocking access to their software.

Hardware wallets are not the safest way to store keys.
They are a pretty secure method which is a trade-off between security and convenience.
A completely air-gapped setup with two isolated computers would be more secure.. but way less usable for every-day spendings.

And no, you don't need to use ledger software to access your coins.
You can use ledger live, but any other software which supports HW wallets is fine (e.g. electrum, wasabi, mycelium, ...).

I also read that it is possible to  get access to our private key ourselves , but we would need to use another 3rd party software to do that.

[...] so using recovery phrase we can get access to all BIP39  supported wallets, I read that Electeum  uses other coding language but with a help of 3rd party software we can use BIP39  coding with BIP32,  can this 3rd party software be trusted and also can we actually find out our Private key that is held on ledger or is that too risky?

The private keys are derived from the mnemonic code (the 24 words you have).
Yes, you can do that without the device. But it is recommended to regard the mnemonic code as compromised after entering it anywhere else than your hardware wallet.

You should only do that if it is absolutely necessary (e.g. device broken and you don't want to buy a second one or want to access your coins without it).

[IggySe7ven]

Hey Guys,


If lets say they get orders from the government  etc can they prevent us from being able to access or move our crypto  directly or by blocking access to their software.

As a matter of fact  they can do it through the specially designed firmware that contains the code  to block/wipe off  the access to private keys. If you flash  such firmware none of the existing  software wallets will work with Ledger's private keys  either it'll be Ledger Live, Electrum or some other else.

So you are saying the government can block my access to Bitcoin I have on Ledger? Did I understand you correctly? So what is the point of trusting Ledger? Is there a safe way  to store where noone can do anything  my crypto or prevent me from accessing it ?

[bob123]

So you are saying the government can block my access to Bitcoin I have on Ledger? Did I understand you correctly?

No. Read my last reply.

So what is the point of trusting Ledger?

You don't need to trust ledger to not block you out of your coins.
They don't have any access to your coins. That's what a hardware wallet is made for.

Is there a safe way  to store where noone can do anything  my crypto or prevent me from accessing it ?

Yes.
Any kind of wallet where you hold the keys.

So, basically.. any hardware wallet, cold wallet storage, paper wallet, software wallet or mobile wallet.

[IggySe7ven]

So you are saying the government can block my access to Bitcoin I have on Ledger? Did I understand you correctly?

No. Read my last reply.

So what is the point of trusting Ledger?

You don't need to trust ledger to not block you out of your coins.
They don't have any access to your coins. That's what a hardware wallet is made for.

Is there a safe way  to store where noone can do anything  my crypto or prevent me from accessing it ?

Yes.
Any kind of wallet where you hold the keys.

So, basically.. any hardware wallet, cold wallet storage, paper wallet, software wallet or mobile wallet.

So you say I need to trust them not to block me out, so then  while they can't access my crypto they can block me out from using it and same goes for other wallets? So let's say the government decides that  they want to outlaw BTc then they can just prevent us from acess to it  through these companies as a collective or individually? So my power still lies in having to trust that Ledger or other wallet providers and not directly in the blockchain?

[ranochigo]

So you say I need to trust them not to block me out, so then  while they can't access my crypto they can block me out from using it and same goes for other wallets? So let's say the government decides that  they want to outlaw BTc then they can just prevent us from acess to it  through these companies as a collective or individually? So my power still lies in having to trust that Ledger or other wallet providers and not directly in the blockchain?

No... That literally the opposite of what he says. Hardware wallet providers should not have access to your keys. They cannot control how you spend your funds. They could possibly push out a firmware update which requires the user's participation to brick the device but your funds will be recoverable from the seeds.

If you are in sole control your seed and by extension the private keys, you are not in control of any companies and/or wallet providers. You can and will be able to import the seeds or private keys into another wallet and use it normally.

[IggySe7ven]

Ok thanks everyone for clarification.

[IggySe7ven]

So you say I need to trust them not to block me out, so then  while they can't access my crypto they can block me out from using it and same goes for other wallets? So let's say the government decides that  they want to outlaw BTc then they can just prevent us from acess to it  through these companies as a collective or individually? So my power still lies in having to trust that Ledger or other wallet providers and not directly in the blockchain?

No... That literally the opposite of what he says. Hardware wallet providers should not have access to your keys. They cannot control how you spend your funds. They could possibly push out a firmware update which requires the user's participation to brick the device but your funds will be recoverable from the seeds.

If you are in sole control your seed and by extension the private keys, you are not in control of any companies and/or wallet providers. You can and will be able to import the seeds or private keys into another wallet and use it normally.

Can you please help me understand one thing,

So the Recovery Key Phrase  that is used to restore  our wallet, so even if all the wallet operators and providers that we have now are shut down, If I want to get access to my private key I can still find someone who can decode it for me? Because sure we can use recovery phrase with other wallets but if they all get orders to shut down where can I decode it myself to get my private key?

[o_e_l_e_o]

If I want to get access to my private key I can still find someone who can decode it for me?

There are countless open source repositories, libraries, packages, etc., which will turn your seed phrase in to private keys. There is no way that they could all be shut down short of a global adversary censoring the entire internet, in which case bitcoin would be worthless anyway. And even then, the process for turning a seed phrase in to individual private keys isn't exactly top secret or even that difficult. It is essentially just a bunch of hash functions repeated multiple times. Even a complete newbie with a bit of determination would be able to figure it out without much difficulty.

If you are really concerned, then download something like https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ from the linked GitHub repository and store it on your computer, a couple of USB drives and CDs. That way, you know that you always have access to a piece of software which will recover your seed phrase for you if needed.

[IggySe7ven]

ok, thanks everyone.