India makes ownership of Bitcoin criminal offense - How to respond?

[magneto]

Again and again the RBI seems to come out with these absurd proposals that will have absolutely no means of enforcement.

We've been through this saga with China, India, Pakistan and a bunch of other countries that have attempted to regulate (i.e., ban) BTC to various extents. But none of them have worked - the decentralised nature of BTC at its core means that it has no central point of failure.

If, and it's a big if, the bill does get passed, then there may be short term panic. But I simply do not think that it'll affect either markets nor BTC fundamentals in the slightest in the medium to long run - people already know the Indian government's stance on BTC a long time ago, and they also know that any proposed law of such kind will not have any practical effect other than wiping out domestic regulated bitcoin businesses (the majority of which have already relocated/closed).

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[Sithara007]

Again and again the RBI seems to come out with these absurd proposals that will have absolutely no means of enforcement.

We've been through this saga with China, India, Pakistan and a bunch of other countries that have attempted to regulate (i.e., ban) BTC to various extents. But none of them have worked - the decentralised nature of BTC at its core means that it has no central point of failure.

If, and it's a big if, the bill does get passed, then there may be short term panic. But I simply do not think that it'll affect either markets nor BTC fundamentals in the slightest in the medium to long run - people already know the Indian government's stance on BTC a long time ago, and they also know that any proposed law of such kind will not have any practical effect other than wiping out domestic regulated bitcoin businesses (the majority of which have already relocated/closed).

No one expects them to arrest all of the 10 million cryptocurrency users in India. What they are planning to do is to arrest a few prominent traders, hand them extremely harsh punishments, so that the remainder would remain terrorized. Unlike the Western nations where the citizens are concerned about their personal liberty, authoritarian policies are easier to implement in India, where a large section of the population is illiterate. The government will make an announcement that they are banning Bitcoin because it is being used for terrorist financing (despite having zero evidence to support their claim) and the illiterate supporters of the ruling party would immediately support the move. Already, the pro-government social media handles are spreading their anti-Bitcoin propaganda in the social media platforms.

[Lorence.xD]

Why India bans private cryptocurrencies to support government solutions. The official currency will give the country more control to limit foreign influence, but it will also provide the kind of stability associated with conventional currencies. The prices of Bitcoin and similar currencies still tend to fluctuate wildly and are more susceptible to manipulation. In theory, India can accept pure digital currencies without digital traps.

Well, India is run by the government that is why they ban cryptocurrency, they see cryptocurrency as a threat so they have to neutralize it before it gets bigger. Your theory of India accepting pure digital currencies contradicts with your other statements which is the wild fluctuation on the prices of bitcoin and other currencies and that the official fiat currency will limit foreign influence and create a stability.

[PhoenixZephyrus]

No one expects them to arrest all of the 10 million cryptocurrency users in India. What they are planning to do is to arrest a few prominent traders, hand them extremely harsh punishments, so that the remainder would remain terrorized. Unlike the Western nations where the citizens are concerned about their personal liberty, authoritarian policies are easier to implement in India, where a large section of the population is illiterate. The government will make an announcement that they are banning Bitcoin because it is being used for terrorist financing (despite having zero evidence to support their claim) and the illiterate supporters of the ruling party would immediately support the move. Already, the pro-government social media handles are spreading their anti-Bitcoin propaganda in the social media platforms.

India has been spreading FUD on the media about Bitcoin for YEARS now. And the illiterate and less-technologically-savvy people, which compose a large chunk of our population just eat that up. No one does their own research or due diligence. The media has only ever reported negative news about BTC, like when scams/fraudsters are arrested and they have used BTC or sometimes I've just seen the argument that "cryptocurrency" is "hacker-currency" and some weird stuff like that. I remember India trying to push its own crypto in 2018 named Lakshmi, but never followed through with that. So, yeah, the buzz has been going on for quite a while but India has always failed to take a step and instead of regulating, it wants to ban crypto.

Also, the bill supposedly has vague "exceptions", which I believe will just be crypto owned by the giant corporations which will be excused. In words of Elon, India has gone corpo.

[wxa7115]

Don's panic! Nothing has been finalised yet. What we are seeing is that the crypto matter will be discussed in the upcoming parliament session. While it's most likely to be negative because majority of Indian politicians are uneducated and they simply don't want to understand what crypto is. However, Passing a law is one thing and enforcing it is another thing! If any country wants to achieve blanket ban on cryptos, internet will have to be stopped! So it is easier said than done! Just wait and watch!

I would agree with you on the voting matter! India needs to choose educated ministers. The current government is regressive in nature and sees everything new as a threat. That outlook can only be changed with education and young blood. I think India needs to choose young leaders more! 

That is the thing, laws can say whatever they want, in theory they could even criminalize people just from the act of breathing but such law will be impossible to enforce and something similar could happen to this law if it is passed as it is.

If they pass this law and criminalize holding cryptocurrencies then those that can will get out of the country and will leave with their fortunes in bitcoin, the rest will just keep silent about their bitcoin holdings and will use decentralized exchanges, so at the end they can pass whatever laws they want this is not going to stop the adoption and the rate of growth of bitcoin at all.

[Vishnu.Reang]

India has been spreading FUD on the media about Bitcoin for YEARS now. And the illiterate and less-technologically-savvy people, which compose a large chunk of our population just eat that up. No one does their own research or due diligence. The media has only ever reported negative news about BTC, like when scams/fraudsters are arrested and they have used BTC or sometimes I've just seen the argument that "cryptocurrency" is "hacker-currency" and some weird stuff like that. I remember India trying to push its own crypto in 2018 named Lakshmi, but never followed through with that. So, yeah, the buzz has been going on for quite a while but India has always failed to take a step and instead of regulating, it wants to ban crypto.

Also, the bill supposedly has vague "exceptions", which I believe will just be crypto owned by the giant corporations which will be excused. In words of Elon, India has gone corpo.

Everyone knows what the "exceptions" mean. Under the "Make in India" program, Ambani and Adani will be provided with exceptions, so that they can come up with Jiocoin or Adanicoin. The government is full of retards, if they think that everyone would flock to purchase their shitcoin if they remove the competition. Crypto industry doesn't work like that. I tried to post a few comments clarifying that there is no evidence to link cryptocurrency to terrorist funding or tax evasion in mainstream news websites such as TOI and HT. But the BJP bots immediately flagged my comments as offensive and got them deleted.

[bryant.coleman]

The idea of criminalizing holding any sort of cryptocurrencies was the mad brainchild of Subhash Garg when he came up with that first draft. I don't think they will go to this extent.
Unfortunately, everything at present is being decided by a regressive government aided by a media truly gone mad. They are always fanning the flames of chauvinism because the thing that gets the most TRP in today's India is a fake display of nationality and making everything about it.

Farmers protest become secessionist movements; A murder becomes a case of snatching civilization from Bollywood; An investigation into a manipulative journalist becomes "foreign powers" trying to suppress Indians through Congress.

If this becomes political, Bitcoiners WILL lose. So while you concern is legitimate and we all need to rally, I would advice against making this about elections or anything political.

The best option is to follow the route of law and basic human right to choose. The Supreme Court has enough knowledge to judge this. As Civil society, we have to support the nascent industry and make it about financial freedom. Making it about Modi's politics or crony capitalism of the ruling party will only lead to a quick suppression using media sensationalization.

I am not sure whether the Supreme Court will offer any relief for the Bitcoiners. From what I understand, the duty of the supreme court is to implement the existing laws. At the most, they can check the constitutional validity of the new laws that are being passed by the parliament. In case the parliament passes this "Bill" and makes it an "Act", then the only instance where Supreme Court will turn it down is if it finds the law "unconstitutional". Under current circumstances, there is only a remote chance of something like that happening. So I agree with the political move. The best response would be to organize Bitcoiners and make sure that the ruling party is defeated in the elections.

[stompix]

How to respond?

<insert gif of Homer Simpson disappearing into a bush here>

But the part you shared doesn't even mention bitcoin, it uses the term "private cryptocurrencies" which is ambiguous wording for a legal document and it is also not talking about any kind of criminal offense. It also mentioned "exceptions" which could mean bitcoin.

Unfortunately, I see it is worse, they are using this term to make sure that nothing which is not issued by the state can avoid this law. It's like rather than outlawing 400 types of drugs they make a criminal offense owning every substance that is not approved, be it a drug or goldfish food.

One thing that I'm not sure how users from India will take it.
The bad news is that obviously the one above, the good news is that the market doesn't care which brings us the second bad news, seems like the Indian influence on the price is null to negative.

Those who don't want to sell their coins immediately have very few options. They can try to travel to countries such as Qatar, which are having visa-waiver for Indian nationals

You're joking, right?
You're going to fly to a different country, exchange the coins there while taking an obvious hit from the fees, and then, what? Ride back home with a bar of gold deep inside your... you know what!
Do you think that the buys at the customs are stupid not to see what's happening when suddenly there is a spike in one day visitors? What if the Qatar authorities think this is not good and start confiscating your money? I wouldn't play around with anything over 10 000 euros inc ash here and we're in a union with near-zero border control and you envision thousands doing this? Let's be serious.

Criminal offence? Well it will take years for any government authority to track you down because they are not having proper infra or IT support really. They have to handle more serious issue within the country apart from the crypto currency use.

And yet I'm willing to bet that IF this law is passed once if you hear a knock at the door at night while not expecting any visits you will piss your pants in seconds. It will take just a  few convictions with some harsh punishments and 99% will quit. I've lived in a real dictatorship, you have no idea how effective fear is.

[bryant.coleman]

~
And yet I'm willing to bet that IF this law is passed once if you hear a knock at the door at night while not expecting any visits you will piss your pants in seconds. It will take just a  few convictions with some harsh punishments and 99% will quit. I've lived in a real dictatorship, you have no idea how effective fear is.

100% agreed. I have been to India multiple times, and I can tell you that the Indian prisons are not for the light-hearted. Even if there is only a 0.0001% chance of getting caught, the vast majority of the users are going to dump their holdings. Those users who are residing in the EU and the US can post whatever they want, about disregarding the law. They fail to understand the ground reality in India.

[posi]

The strategy used is very simple. First destroy the competition and then rollout their own product and capture the monopoly. Take the case of the telecom sector. Established brands such as Idea and Airtel were destroyed before Ambani came up with his Jio brand. And how can they let cryptocurrency out of their control? Since it is impossible to control a decentralized asset such as Bitcoin, they have decided to ban it. Once the vacuum is created, the pro-government corporates will come up with their own version of the cryptocurrency (which will obviously be 100% pre-mined).

It so amazed sometimes the behaviour of some government towards the citizens that elected them into the office and with the above information you point out I believe the current Indian government are following the same strategy used by the Chinese government before they create their own Central Bank Digital Currency but it a shame that their decision will only affect the development of the country because there's a lot blockchain Dev from India.
With that been said, due to all this issue, the recent list of countries in the world that are communist which India was excluded is totally wrong and they need to be include.

Government and their selfish habit.

Again? Or is it serious this time?

We never can tell, let's wait cause the Wazirx Chairman and other cryptos related CEO will try to convince the government just like he once did. I have once before now that cryptocurrency will have many enemies due to its trend during the total lockdown, the recent surge in price, and the institution which are the major investors. Besides, I am sure the banking setting and some government are not happy as we speak.

[webtricks]

~~
One thing that I'm not sure how users from India ill take it.
The bad news is that obviously the one above, the good news is that the market doesn't care which brings us the second bad news, seems like the Indian influence on the price is null to negative.

No, it isn't like that. There are around 8-9M Indian crypto traders who bought or sold cryptos at least once in last 12 months. The number is not small. The first day after the bill announcement, Indian market experienced a deep fall. Before 2018, Indian situation had direct co-relation with average International bitcoin price. But after the introduction of pegged coins like USDT, market is working in two way: Indian Rupee <--> USDT <--> bitcoin

Current price of US Dollar in Indian Rupee is Rs. 73. Now see the chart below:


(image courtesy: WazirX)

USDT price declined to Rs. 60 (-20% from international price) on 31st Jan. So, first hit was taken by pegged coin. With current Indian volume, impact on USD price of bitcoin would have started if price of USDT declined below the level of Rs. 54-56, after that USDT would have been saturated and bitcoin would have started falling in dollar value. But that didn't happen because Indians expected that Finance Minister would say something about the bill in budget speech but she didn't say anything making people believe that cryptocurrencies are just small petty item in government's list of agenda and bill most likely won't be passed. Hence, positivity once again kicked in Indian market on 1st Feb and USDT price is once again trading around Rs. 74-75 (1-2% premium).

I just wrote a post in Indian section highlighting my views on why the bill most likely won't get passed: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5313704.msg56250260#msg56250260

[yazher]

If this legislation get into becoming a bill then it will have high negative impact on the users of the already exiting cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin, for the government to issue a digital currency on it own means it will be highly centralized and the freedom of it users will be taken away. Well I don't think the Indian government will want to fight a global trend such as cryptocurrency.

Yeah, they need to be careful because of all the country in the world India has the most hostile country in terms of their national law. From the start, Indian people have faced this issue for years now and they're not gonna make it right since the bill has already been passed. However, India has also put some pressure on the investors of BTC since they implemented this bill. If I were living there I should be careful where I get or send my BTC because once it passes on some criminal address, it would be a pain in the ass.

[stompix]

No, it isn't like that. There are around 8-9M Indian crypto traders who bought or sold cryptos at least once in last 12 months. The number is not small. The first day after the bill announcement, Indian market experienced a deep fall.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that's the Indian market, and as you can see on any graphics that shows the trading in the world it had zero efect, Elon twitting one meme about bitcoin has more impact on price than the entire parliament of India and its central bank board committing seppuku.
10 million 100 million, write every number you can if all their holdings are not touching one-tenth of coinbase volume it's nothing.
Just imagine if this proposal would have come from the SEC  

With current Indian volume, impact on USD price of bitcoin would have started if price of

Before that, you would need a volume a bit higher than 10 million. I understand the reason while you try to picture things this way but that's the reality proven tens of times in the past, news from India is not making a dent in the price in any way.
Leave the patriotism aside and try to be objective, in the current situation I doubt that even news from Japan or even a few countries in Europe (except the big 5)  would swing anything, all eyes are focused on the US.

Look even on this forum, is anyone running for the hills hearing the news? Nope!

[BitcoinExchangeIndia.com]

A few days back, the Indian government announced that they will ban the usage of cryptocurrency in India. The bill is currently in queue to be presented during the budget session (which started today).

Thread title is overtly sensationalized. India has not made ownership of Bitcoin a criminal offense yet. We do not the final form of the bill yet. Whole industry is eagerly waiting to know the final form of this bill.

[emmybd]

Bitcoin is considered as a breathtaking cryptocurrency. People are preferring bitcoin more than other currencies. But it is shocking that in most of the countries, transaction of bitcoin is illegal.
Even, in India bitcoin is considered as an illegal transaction system. India is planning to introduce law to ban bitcoin. It is very difficult to operate bitcoin in India. As governments can't control bitcoin they don't like it at all. Some analysts are saying that Indian government may be planning to issue their own official cryptocurrency which will be controlled by governments or financial authorities. The main purpose behind it is to gain financially, as India has a big population, so it will certainly have impact. India has also issued punishment for using private cryptocurrencies like bitcoin. Traders and investors are not happy with this decision.

[pixie85]

If it passes it's going to be a dead law like one of those laws in the UK where you can shoot a Scott found carrying a bow and arrows in York

How are they going to prove that you hold Bitcoins? How are they going to find spots in jail to hold people if this is more a misdemeanor than a crime? Are they going to put people in jail with thieves and murderers? It's going to be counterproductive and make them a lot of enemies in a very short time.

Pretty stupid of them to even attempt it.

[Sithara007]

Thread title is overtly sensationalized. India has not made ownership of Bitcoin a criminal offense yet. We do not the final form of the bill yet. Whole industry is eagerly waiting to know the final form of this bill.

That's true. The logic is that this bill is essentially the same as the one which was formulated by Subhash Chandra Garg in 2018. Back then, he had such stupid provisions, such as 10 year jail term for owning cryptocurrency. But during the budget speech, there was no mention about cryptocurrency by Nirmala Seetharaman (finance minister). But that can't be taken as a positive sign, because the budget speech was very short (~90 mins) and it is not mandatory that the planned bill should be discussed during the speech.

[pakhitheboss]

Thread title is overtly sensationalized. India has not made ownership of Bitcoin a criminal offense yet. We do not the final form of the bill yet. Whole industry is eagerly waiting to know the final form of this bill.

That's true. The logic is that this bill is essentially the same as the one which was formulated by Subhash Chandra Garg in 2018. Back then, he had such stupid provisions, such as 10 year jail term for owning cryptocurrency. But during the budget speech, there was no mention about cryptocurrency by Nirmala Seetharaman (finance minister). But that can't be taken as a positive sign, because the budget speech was very short (~90 mins) and it is not mandatory that the planned bill should be discussed during the speech.

The budget session of the parliament runs for a month and in this session the bill will be placed in both the houses. Now it depends on the government when they want to present the bill. It all depends on the government whether they want to priotize this bill.

[Shasha80]

I can feel the disappointment from the crypto community in India regarding the fate of crypto in India, because it looks like the Indian
government is very strict on crypto. Several times planning to ban cryptocurrency, then often the Indian government issued negative
statements against cryptocurrency. Hopefully the crypto community in India can convince the government to be friendly with crypto,
because the Indian people need cryptocurrency to help restore the economy.

[Vishnu.Reang]

The budget session of the parliament runs for a month and in this session the bill will be placed in both the houses. Now it depends on the government when they want to present the bill. It all depends on the government whether they want to priotize this bill.

The budget session is divided in to two parts, and if I am not wrong the bill may be introduced during the second part. The first part is scheduled to run from 1st February to 13th February and during this session the priority will be taken up by discussion related to the current budget and the implementation of the farm laws. After that there is a recess from 14th February to 7th March.

The parliament will meet again on 8th March. The second phase of the budget session will run from 8th March to 8th April, and during this time most of the bills that are on queue will be taken up and tabled before the parliament.