[2021-03-15] [Reuters] India to propose cryptocurrency ban, penalising miners

[Carlton Banks]

Why would Indian Government want to make criminals out of themselves, and what would they gain from banning crypto for regular folks?

er, because the politicians want all the BTC for themselves, and want to use lies and (threats of) violence to do so?


and because (unlike the above-mentioned Indian computer programmers), the politicians don't have any skills to sell outside of India, they already sold every last little thing they could get their thieving little hands on.


Stand tall Indians, the government are scared of how powerful Indian bitcoiners are

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[Sithara007]

I understand that technically they can pass a law, which they know how to circumvent, while ordinary people will be affected to the fullest. What I don't understand is why do they need that? Circumventing a law is kind of illegal, right? Why would Indian Government want to make criminals out of themselves, and what would they gain from banning crypto for regular folks?

Here they are not breaking the law. Politicians and powerful people are using proxy ownership, which is not illegal as per the law. Their coins are being held by their proxies who are not Indian nationals. It is allowed in the proposed legislation and therefore you can't say that they are doing something illegal. However, for the ordinary people there is no such provision. An average Indian earns $1,000-$2,000 per year and he can't afford to find proxies in foreign nations.

[Betwrong]

Why would Indian Government want to make criminals out of themselves, and what would they gain from banning crypto for regular folks?

er, because the politicians want all the BTC for themselves, and want to use lies and (threats of) violence to do so?


and because (unlike the above-mentioned Indian computer programmers), the politicians don't have any skills to sell outside of India, they already sold every last little thing they could get their thieving little hands on.


Stand tall Indians, the government are scared of how powerful Indian bitcoiners are

The worst part of the current situation with governments is that people there, in many cases, are less educated than people whom they coerce to follow their rules. It would be hell on earth if the governments had absolute power, but fortunately this is not the case in many countries already, and overall I think that in the future, wise people will find a way to rule the world, one way or another.

The ban in question, if happens, can only exacerbate the stand-off between the ignorant people in the government and educated Indian people. And, indeed, the government should be worried about the possible outcome.

[malevolent]

You forget that India is a country with almost 1.4 billion people, and what in that context is 8 million, or as we have already concluded probably more people who own or trade cryptocurrencies? If it were about 14 million, it would still be only 1% of the total population - they do not pose a danger to politicians, especially if they are not united and begin to become politically active.

The whole thing is actually on the Indian crypto community, they have to exert as much pressure on the authorities as possible and show that they oppose such a law. It may not work, but if they do not raise their voice, they will give legitimacy to government actions.

There is a saying that says “Bad government is chosen by good people who stay at home”, of course in the context of the election process.

I imagine cryptocurrency holders are disproportionately wealthy, compared to the rest of the population. If India's campaign laws permit this, theoretically <1% of the vote could have several times the power.

Here they are not breaking the law. Politicians and powerful people are using proxy ownership, which is not illegal as per the law. Their coins are being held by their proxies who are not Indian nationals. It is allowed in the proposed legislation and therefore you can't say that they are doing something illegal. However, for the ordinary people there is no such provision. An average Indian earns $1,000-$2,000 per year and he can't afford to find proxies in foreign nations.

Wouldn't they prefer if they could hold and transact with Bitcoin without having to rely on intermediaries?

[bryant.coleman]

The worst part of the current situation with governments is that people there, in many cases, are less educated than people whom they coerce to follow their rules. It would be hell on earth if the governments had absolute power, but fortunately this is not the case in many countries already, and overall I think that in the future, wise people will find a way to rule the world, one way or another.

The ban in question, if happens, can only exacerbate the stand-off between the ignorant people in the government and educated Indian people. And, indeed, the government should be worried about the possible outcome.

As a foreigner having business interests and family connections in India, I would say that doing business in this country is extremely difficult. You have to deal with all sort of shady characters. The bureaucrats are not only ignorant and corrupt, but they are also unethical and immoral. The so called standoff between the ignorant people in government/bureaucracy and educated entrepreneurs you have mentioned has existed ever since India came in to existence in 1947. You need to understand that this is a country which tried to ban computer and internet. And before that owning foreign currency without special permit was a criminal offense in India (even for Indians traveling to foreign nations).

[Betwrong]

The worst part of the current situation with governments is that people there, in many cases, are less educated than people whom they coerce to follow their rules. It would be hell on earth if the governments had absolute power, but fortunately this is not the case in many countries already, and overall I think that in the future, wise people will find a way to rule the world, one way or another.

The ban in question, if happens, can only exacerbate the stand-off between the ignorant people in the government and educated Indian people. And, indeed, the government should be worried about the possible outcome.

As a foreigner having business interests and family connections in India, I would say that doing business in this country is extremely difficult. You have to deal with all sort of shady characters. The bureaucrats are not only ignorant and corrupt, but they are also unethical and immoral. The so called standoff between the ignorant people in government/bureaucracy and educated entrepreneurs you have mentioned has existed ever since India came in to existence in 1947. You need to understand that this is a country which tried to ban computer and internet. And before that owning foreign currency without special permit was a criminal offense in India (even for Indians traveling to foreign nations).

But, unlike in North Korea, they didn't ban the Internet in India, right?

I understand what you are saying about unethical and immoral bureaucrats, I myself live in a country which is hardly better in this regard. But things used to be worse in the past, that's a fact. The world is changing for better overall, and I believe that at this point banning Bitcoin in India is impossible.

[bryant.coleman]

But, unlike in North Korea, they didn't ban the Internet in India, right?

I understand what you are saying about unethical and immoral bureaucrats, I myself live in a country which is hardly better in this regard. But things used to be worse in the past, that's a fact. The world is changing for better overall, and I believe that at this point banning Bitcoin in India is impossible.

I am not talking about the current scenario. I am talking about the situation in late 1980s, then the Indian government prohibited internet for ordinary people. It took many years for the citizens to receive access to internet. And for almost one decade, the only internet provider in India was the BSNL, which would provide dial up connections with a maximum speed of 28 Kbps. What I am trying to say is that, the mentality hasn't changed much.

[Heisenberg_Hunter]

I would say that doing business in this country is extremely difficult. You have to deal with all sort of shady characters.

This. A simple example is that, you can never build a house without bribing the local goons present in every single area of the country. On a broader scale, the civil engineers who are building the houses are forced to buy the building hardware materials from the local goons and if you didn't abide by them you would end up in getting threatened and if you move this case over to the police, the goons would bribe the police and the innocent business owner would end up in jail   Simply stating this is a shitty country run by highly corrupted politicians and their mafia like local goon gang. If you pursue an engineering degree and pass out without a higher score, you would end up working as a food packer on the road side markets and on the other side if you get a better score and finish up your engineering degree you should work as a slave for the IT sectors and you are frowned upon from starting any kind of businesses.

I imagine cryptocurrency holders are disproportionately wealthy, compared to the rest of the population.

Almost 80% of the Indian households who work in IT sectors has meagre to zero savings hence one could never invest a proportionate amount in bitcoin. But the one who saves, invest in stocks and bitcoin and they would have made some money if they had entered the market in 2020.

The only reason why bitcoin is gaining traction in India is because we can make money by investing with them but otherwise open source softwares and OS like Linux are treated as inferior to closed source expensive bloatware like Windows. BTW we need to bring more awareness among Indians and educate them on the basics of how India is totally different from rest of the well developed nations.

[Sithara007]

Almost 80% of the Indian households who work in IT sectors has meagre to zero savings hence one could never invest a proportionate amount in bitcoin. But the one who saves, invest in stocks and bitcoin and they would have made some money if they had entered the market in 2020.

Unless you have exceptional coding/programming skills, the salary can be very low in the Indian IT sector (average starting salary is around $400 per month). And that is the reason why 99% of the IT engineers try their level best to migrate to some of the developed nations (only around 1% to 2% manages to do that). Also, Bitcoin investment became popular only in 2017-18, when the exchange rates were already quite high. For comparison, in China the investment took pace during 2013-14.

[malevolent]

This. A simple example is that, you can never build a house without bribing the local goons present in every single area of the country. On a broader scale, the civil engineers who are building the houses are forced to buy the building hardware materials from the local goons and if you didn't abide by them you would end up in getting threatened and if you move this case over to the police, the goons would bribe the police and the innocent business owner would end up in jail   Simply stating this is a shitty country run by highly corrupted politicians and their mafia like local goon gang.

I heard some interesting firsthand accounts of what it takes for a power-hungry business to get connected to a power company (i.e. a shitload of money in bribes) so I'm not surprised to read stories like these.

and you are frowned upon from starting any kind of businesses.

Why is that? Potential to be extorted?

Almost 80% of the Indian households who work in IT sectors has meagre to zero savings hence one could never invest a proportionate amount in bitcoin. But the one who saves, invest in stocks and bitcoin and they would have made some money if they had entered the market in 2020.

That wouldn't be the case if they bought a bit earlier when BTC was cheaper. The Indian local board on this forum was created many years ago and it wouldn't have been created if there was 0 interest.

[Vishnu.Reang]

That wouldn't be the case if they bought a bit earlier when BTC was cheaper. The Indian local board on this forum was created many years ago and it wouldn't have been created if there was 0 interest.

It would be wrong to say that there was zero interest before 2017. My friend (who introduced me to cryptocurrency) got his first coins in 2012. However, back then there were no India-based cryptocurrency exchanges and almost 100% of the trade was done through Localbitcoins and other P2P platforms. Creating an account in international exchanges such as BTC-e, MtGox and Bitstamp was also a bit hard for Indians during that period.

[Heisenberg_Hunter]

Why is that? Potential to be extorted?

Both yes and no. First thing to note here is that, 95% of the Indian households never provides you the freedom to start businesses and a common scenario here is that, if you never get placed in a company after you passout of the college you move over to business otherwise you are entitled to work for someone. Supressing new inventions has become a common task by the government and new inventors will always be hated by the government officials or at times would end up in prison or killed by local goons.

Second the Indian education system never teaches us the entrepreneurship lifestyle. Even if you tend to start a new business, there are possibilities of being extorted. Even if an innocent citizen like George Floyd is killed in the Indian streets, we can easily bribe the police and would be released from the prison without any crime cases.

That wouldn't be the case if they bought a bit earlier when BTC was cheaper. The Indian local board on this forum was created many years ago and it wouldn't have been created if there was 0 interest.

There was interest since the earlier days but the interest wasn't on the ground breaking technology of bitcoin it was on the price mechanics. Most of the early adopters either became scammers (Nilam Doc, Amitabh S, escrow.ms) or left the scene leaving us here with just mere speculation stuff.

I was deeply involved into the torrenting and P2P file sharing community since the eMule days (2005?) but never had a chance to know about another P2P implementation (bitcoin) till 2016 and there were many like me too.

[Betwrong]

Guys, I believe what you are saying is true because you live there, and of course you know the situation better than I do. It's just ... Let me be a little more optimistic regarding India's future. What I read about India is that it's a young nation, median age is below 28 y.o., and that many of these young people are tech savvy. Also, it's a fact that currently India has the second highest number of internet users

 

I mean, even though in the nearest past things used to be bad, I believe in the bright nearest future for India.

[Vishnu.Reang]

^^^ India do have the second highest number of internet users and it is having the cheapest rates for mobile internet (3G/4G). On top of that, India is home to tens of millions of IT engineers. If the government was at least a bit more friendly towards cryptocurrency, then it could have resulted in huge number of new jobs and billions of USD in tax revenue for the authorities. But as of now, the cryptocurrency users in India face all sort of harassment from the authorities.

[IconFirm]

Any ban will fail as other countries have found out. All it does is push the prices up while traders move to decentralized/p2p exchanges in that particular country as happened in Nigeria.

In fact, if anything, it rather works in Bitcoiners favour.

[malevolent]

escrow.ms)

Has he actually been convicted and was he actually guilty? When the story first broke of his arrest it seemed he may have been a scammer but there was no certainty about it.

[Vishnu.Reang]

escrow.ms)

Has he actually been convicted and was he actually guilty? When the story first broke of his arrest it seemed he may have been a scammer but there was no certainty about it.

Don't have any recent information related to escrow.ms (his real name is Pankaj Bhardwaj). He was arrested in 2016, but he used to be one of the most trustworthy Bitcoin traders in India during the 2012-15 period. I don't know what happened after that. He used to play a very important role in Coinsecure, but they removed him after his arrest.

Here is the original thread in Bitcointalk that deals with his arrest:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1359865.0

And here is a news article which deals with the same topic:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Card-frauds-used-bitcoins-to-trade-money/articleshow/50922983.cms

[Betwrong]

^^^ India do have the second highest number of internet users and it is having the cheapest rates for mobile internet (3G/4G). On top of that, India is home to tens of millions of IT engineers. If the government was at least a bit more friendly towards cryptocurrency, then it could have resulted in huge number of new jobs and billions of USD in tax revenue for the authorities. But as of now, the cryptocurrency users in India face all sort of harassment from the authorities.

I'm sorry about that, and it was never my intention to belittle the struggle you fight there. I can't say it better so I'll cite the words by Carlton Banks from above:

~
Stand tall Indians, the government are scared of how powerful Indian bitcoiners are

I know it won't be easy, but I'm sure that sooner or later you, Indian bitcoiners, will win.

[malevolent]

Here is the original thread in Bitcointalk that deals with his arrest:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1359865.0

And here is a news article which deals with the same topic:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Card-frauds-used-bitcoins-to-trade-money/articleshow/50922983.cms

I know all about that, he was also very active here on bitcointalk, but with the updates and when he came back it didn't sound like his guilt was certain. Could have been the wrong person at the wrong time.

[Sithara007]

I know all about that, he was also very active here on bitcointalk, but with the updates and when he came back it didn't sound like his guilt was certain. Could have been the wrong person at the wrong time.

I have also the same opinion. Even after he was back (after his arrest he has made only a few posts) he continued to help users against various frauds in Indian P2P platforms. I know him as one of the most helpful Indian bitcoiners, who helped a lot of people who lost their money to scammers. Obviously when you deal in P2P, you don't know much about the criminal background of the other trader. There is a good chance that you sold your BTC for "dirty money" and I guess this is what happened to Pankaj Bhardwaj (escrow.ms).

Essentially this sums up the issue in India. Users are forced to rely on P2P platforms, because of harassment from the authorities. And this in turn makes them vulnerable to scams and frauds.