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May 05, 2021, 10:22:56 PM
 #41

Higher Bitcoin price brings us higher transaction fees. No one likes that but U guess at the current Bitcoin transaction concept this is something that can't be avoided and some price has to paid.
However, I don't think that high fees are showstopper for Bitcoin and that it will not affect the overall volume of transactions.

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May 06, 2021, 01:48:06 AM
 #42


I agree with you, that a tx fee of 1000$ would make Bitcoin unusable. Not just for the lightning network, but for everybody. Now tell me, why should somebody (incl a bank) pay 1000$ tx fee? Just a rethorical question, of course nobody is going to pay a fee that high. Exactly because of this, your scenario is not going to happen, of course unless inflation ate the $ value and you pay 1000$ for a loaf of bread.

Bitcoin fees depend on people paying that fee, so we have a free market here, esp. when the 2nd layer (Lightning) fees are competing with the mainchain. Right now you can send Bitcoins for 4Sat/vb which is like half a dollar for an average tx and on Lightning this would be way cheaper.

Lightning is a solution for small payments, like buying a coffee and the mainnet has its advantages with big payments.

For the majority $1000 locking fee is a deal breaker,
but a bank can pay that $1000 locking fee and perform 1 million transactions with another bank in a month.
Which puts the banks cost per transaction at only $ 0.001 per transaction.
So for a Bank using LN, Bitcoin is still usable because of the # of transactions they can generate between other banks.
For the normal person, they make less than 50 transactions per month, and those are not between the same person or service.
Which is why LN or Liquid works best for Banks.


Who said banks would practically pay $1,000 for a “locking fee”? That’s based on assumptions, and your own biased assumptions at that. Bitcoin Exchanges, which should be, in my opinion, the biggest liquidity providers for Lightning has not adopted it yet.

Quote

Now say you lock $50 away in LN for your Coffee shop, and you paid the current $18 transaction fee.


Are you listening, or getting the context of AGD’s post? Who would be so stupid to pay $18 to open an channel for $50?


Hmm,
I know you are only 12,  it is stupid to pay $18 to lock up $50, which is why the LN coffee shop myth is blown.
Which was the point , junior.

Banks are the only ones, that LN or Liquid could ever be feasible to use , as they are the only one that make enough transactions between other banks that it could be viable at even $1000 onchain fees. They do still teach math to 12 year olds, or do you skip school alot?

Maybe you should ask Maxwell to explain it to you.
Blockstream is partnering with Banks to use Liquid.
https://www.coindesk.com/unpacking-the-avit-avanti-banks-new-digital-asset-being-built-with-blockstream
Quote
According to Blockstream CEO Adam Back, the asset will be issued on Liquid – a network developed and overseen by Blockstream that is meant to move bitcoins around more quickly than the Bitcoin blockchain itself. Assets on Liquid can be traded in atomic swaps, or smart contracts that allow for exchanging assets without an intermediary. In the traditional world, ACH payments to an exchange take several days to settle.

https://www.coindesk.com/in-first-pure-crypto-hire-silvergate-bank-recruits-blockstream-liquid-network-exec
Quote
At Blockstream, an outfit pursuing bleeding-edge tech improvements for bitcoin, Richman was responsible for the growth of Liquid, a sidechain, or parallel network sometimes used to move money between exchanges.

In his new job, Richman will be in charge of crypto customer growth for Silvergate. He is taking over the duty from the executive vice president of corporate development, Ben Reynolds, who will focus on the bank’s newer initiatives such as crypto-collateralized loans and the bank’s application for a New York trust company license.

FYI:
By Blockstream artificially limiting bitcoin onchain transaction capacity which keeps the fees high.
This gives them the potential to create profit for their company by creating offchain networks for banks.
Oh, you thought they made LN for the little guy, and you were wrong.  Cheesy
No worries the banks will still drive the price of BTC higher, but don't expect to be sending alot of bitcoins onchain unless you are rich or a bank.



Even though you are starting to become offending, I will clear up things for you about Lightning:

Quote
Now say you lock $50 away in LN for your Coffee shop, and you paid the current $18 transaction fee.

If you are an enduser, you might want to open a channel for more than just 50$ and the fee to open that channel depends on what the actual fee for a btc tx is. So right now you pay about 1000 Satoshis btc tx fee to open a channel, which will save you alot of fees in the future.
You don't need to open a channel to every coffee shop you are going to, but you would have a channel open to a well connected node and all of your payments will be forwarded by that node to your favorite coffee shop (if he is also well connected to other lightning nodes which I assume)

Quote
...Blockstream blah ...
Nobody incl Bitcoin cares about what this company and its individuals are doing (or not)

Quote
Banks are the only ones, that LN or Liquid could ever be feasible to use , as they are the only one that make enough transactions between other banks that it could be viable at even $1000 onchain fees.

You don't understand Lightning. A transaction this big would cost a fortune on Lightning, because the fees on Lightning depend on the number of Satoshis you are sending, while Bitcoin transactions depend on their size in bytes. As I said, Lightning is a solution for the enduser and not for banks.

Gotcha , you think blockstream can do no wrong.
Most Bitcoiners think that way.

As far as LN goes, keep your eyes on it,
in time it will be apparent to all , that only Banks are suitable to use LN, and since they will be running the LN hubs,
they will earn those fees, that you think they can't afford.

Have  a Nice Day.  Smiley
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May 06, 2021, 03:31:37 AM
 #43

Yes,Right,Nowadays it's really getting hard to do small transactions.
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May 06, 2021, 07:18:04 AM
Last edit: May 06, 2021, 07:28:20 AM by BlackHatCoiner
 #44

Demerited by BlackHatCoiner (2)

There are just so many things I disagree with this message, that I'll have to demerit it.  Lips sealed

Let's take them from the ground up.

1.  LN is overly Complicated.
Your opinion? That's clearly something personal. It surely is complicated for someone who doesn't know how to use Bitcoin, but someone who does? I'd rather say that he/she just lacks interest in it to say that.

2.  Losing your Bitcoins when LN is a real possibility if you don't follow the overly complicated rules of LN.
Once you open a channel you're locking your funds on a multi-sig address that requires both signatures to spend from. Every time you transact off-chain, you sign your final balance and you're free to broadcast it whether your node wants it or not. So, how can you lose money if you "don't follow the overly complicated rules"?

3.  Using an EXchange offchain transactions is cheaper and easier than LN.
But you don't have bitcoins. Your exchange keeps the keys, so they own them.

4.  Altcoins like Doge do what Bitcoin used to do, except faster and cheaper.
You do get that the block confirmation time of dogecoin has its downsides, don't you? If the block generation happens that fast, it makes decentralization harder to achieve.

LN is no real solution, the altcoins such as Doge, have more onchain transaction capacity ,
so in the end they are better for actually using as digital money.
Lightning Network is a solution. It is very practical to transact off-chain for small micro-payments instead of broadcasting them all one-by-one in the block chain. Can you please understand that once you broadcast a transaction it gets saved on hundreds of thousands of computers world wide? You can't really believe that broadcasting a transaction every time you want a coffee is a solution, because this isn't VISA. This is the Bitcoin network and decentralization costs. The Lightning Network is the closest thing we have to accomplish the scaling issue.



As for your dogecoin:  Pump it!

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May 06, 2021, 05:31:40 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2021, 06:01:36 PM by TangentC
Merited by Halab (2), fillippone (1), BlackHatCoiner (1)
 #45

Demerited by BlackHatCoiner (2)

There are just so many things I disagree with this message, that I'll have to demerit it.  Lips sealed


Thanks for the Demerits, I shall Cherish them.  Cheesy

1.  LN is overly Complicated.
Your opinion? That's clearly something personal. It surely is complicated for someone who doesn't know how to use Bitcoin, but someone who does? I'd rather say that he/she just lacks interest in it to say that.

Bitcoin is easy to use , for even the moderate PC person.
LN is the stuff , where you have to be a super nerd to even mess with.
This is not the majority of people.


2.  Losing your Bitcoins when LN is a real possibility if you don't follow the overly complicated rules of LN.
Once you open a channel you're locking your funds on a multi-sig address that requires both signatures to spend from. Every time you transact off-chain, you sign your final balance and you're free to broadcast it whether your node wants it or not. So, how can you lose money if you "don't follow the overly complicated rules"?

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/91211/how-can-someone-lose-funds-in-lightning-network
You lose your partner's revocation keys:
You lose the commitment transactions:
Losing funds from going offline

Random Bugs, not sure if the one below has been fixed yet.
https://bitcoinerx.com/bitcoin/90-of-bitcoins-on-the-lightning-network-could-be-lost-to-attackers-following-current-lightening-implementation-research-says/

Nothing a Super Nerd would worry over, but more than the rest of us will waste time with,  Smiley

3.  Using an EXchange offchain transactions is cheaper and easier than LN.
But you don't have bitcoins. Your exchange keeps the keys, so they own them.

So, I only leave the amount on the exchange, that I plan on spending.
No one should ever keep all of their eggs in 1 basket.
However if the exchange was reputable , and they lose my coins, I can sue them for damages.
So I can get something back.

If I lose my Funds in LN for any of the reasons mentioned earlier,
who do I sue, No one, it is just gone as a sacrifice to the crypto deity.


4.  Altcoins like Doge do what Bitcoin used to do, except faster and cheaper.
You do get that the block confirmation time of dogecoin has its downsides, don't you? If the block generation happens that fast, it makes decentralization harder to achieve.

I get most bitcoiners believe that,
but to me it is a line of BS.

Artificially limiting BTC onchain network , so that I can claim 12 year old kids are running full nodes and keeping the network less centralized is just plain wrong.
No matter 1 or 1 billion non-mining full nodes, it has zero effect on decentralization, because all they do is relay, they don't validate ,
so this virtue is pure imagination on the part of bitcoiners, kind of you have to believe it to join the bitcoiner cult.
This one confusion of the english language causes so many bitcoiners to repeat the decentralization myth.
Validation only occurs , when a transaction is added to a new block , only mining nodes can add new blocks , so only they validate.
Non-mining nodes, can't add new blocks all they can do is relay blocks, which is why 1 non-mining node is as good as a billion, since all they do is relay blocks.
If this makes no sense to you, no worries just means you are a loyal bitcoiner that does not question blockstream.  Wink



LN is no real solution, the altcoins such as Doge, have more onchain transaction capacity ,
so in the end they are better for actually using as digital money.
Lightning Network is a solution. It is very practical to transact off-chain for small micro-payments instead of broadcasting them all one-by-one in the block chain. Can you please understand that once you broadcast a transaction it gets saved on hundreds of thousands of computers world wide? You can't really believe that broadcasting a transaction every time you want a coffee is a solution, because this isn't VISA. This is the Bitcoin network and decentralization costs. The Lightning Network is the closest thing we have to accomplish the scaling issue.

I get you think LN is the solution.
Personally , I don't.

The only way it becomes a solution , is if you pay a bank to credit you with capital on their LN channels, and when finished they let you cash out in fiat. Notice at no point , do you actually buy or sell bitcoin in the above scenario. That is the only way you avoid the overly high transaction fees to open and close LN channels. But theses are just my opinions. In time, all will be apparent.  Smiley


FYI:
https://coingeek.com/lightning-strikes-out/
Quote
Hebrew University professors have disclosed another attack on Lightning Network,
but that is far from the first problem that BTC’s alleged “scaling solution,” has experienced this year.
Five years after the network launched, Lightning Network is still in a perpetual beta phase wrought with bugs, CVEs and frequent zero-day attacks that Bitcoin was created to solve in 2008.
But they persist on the network designed to steal Bitcoin transactions, process them for free by avoiding proof of work,
and the engineers claim Lightning solves Bitcoin’s supposed short-comings by (wait for it…) adding exponential complexity on a separate ledger.
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May 06, 2021, 06:25:36 PM
 #46

A few months ago, the price of Bitcoin was just below 10,000. Although the transaction fee was very low at that time, its value is much higher at this time. The transaction fee has now increased 6 times. The volume of transactions has increased a lot with the increase in the price of Bitcoin. Anyone who needs it will no longer move to pay the fee. Rather it will hold more.

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May 06, 2021, 06:43:24 PM
 #47

Bitcoin is easy to use , for even the moderate PC person.
LN is the stuff , where you have to be a super nerd to even mess with.
This is not the majority of people.
No you don't. You may be that "nerd" in order to understand their technical background, and LN's is obviously harder to understand, but both of them can be easily used by the averaged person. (After you show him/her how it works)

I agree that being difficult to understand is a disadvantage, since you have to understand everything you're doing on this sector, but sometimes, good stuff require complexity to work. I hope that we both agree that if you transact off-chain it is more practical.

Also, I want to point you that the majority of its users are already unaware of its technical background. They just use it, because they feel it's simple. You shouldn't be forgetting that Bitcoin was invented by those "nerds". It then delved into the market, as always...

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/91211/how-can-someone-lose-funds-in-lightning-network
You lose your partner's revocation keys:
You lose the commitment transactions:
Losing funds from going offline
Please excuse me! I am reading about LN these days, but it seems I didn't know that. Merited by BlackHatCoiner (1)

Anyway, I don't have much to say here. For the revocation keys and the commitment transactions, I can gently respond that LN is under development. I guess that there will be a solution for those two on improvement proposals. As for losing funds by going offline, I'll have to take it a better look, because I haven't fully got how can that happen.

So, I only leave the amount on the exchange, that I plan on spending.
No one should ever keep all of their eggs in 1 basket.
What exactly will you accomplish if you move your funds to an exchange? Paying even higher fees?

However if the exchange was reputable , and they lose my coins, I can sue them for damages.
So I can get something back.
So, all bets are offTongue

Not sure if you can sue them, but anyway.

Artificially limiting BTC onchain network , so that I can claim 12 year old kids are running full nodes and keeping the network less centralized is just plain wrong.

No matter 1 or 1 billion non-mining full nodes, it has zero effect on decentralization, because all they do is relay, they don't validate ,
so this virtue is pure imagination on the part of bitcoiners, kind of you have to believe it to join the bitcoiner cult.
You're lucky that I'm ran out of demerits. Ever heard of Sybil Attack? You are contributing to the harmony of the network if you run a full node. AFAIK, you aren't connecting on the same nodes each time you establish a connection, but a Bitcoin Core expert can correct me. There's that thing called peer discovery that stimulates decentralization.

The fewer the nodes the worse the decentralization.

If this makes no sense to you, no worries just means you are a loyal bitcoiner that does not question blockstream.
Just for your information, I ain't a Bitcoin fanboy, but neither a hater. I like seeing things objectively. I don't believe that Bitcoin can be used on a global scale, or in other words:  I don't believe the so called "global adoption", because realistically it can't work.

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May 06, 2021, 07:00:03 PM
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #48

Anyone who needs it will no longer move to pay the fee. Rather it will hold more.
Almost every weekend the transaction fee can drop lower than normal days. I just thought that someone might mind paying high transaction fee if the estimated bitcoin value they had was not that much and a good solution for them would be to wait over the weekend. So far, I am quite used to doing it there. Small transaction may not occur much as long as transaction fee increase, and that's normal. But in my opinion it will not be a problem for those who need fast transaction with a sizable amount of bitcoin.
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May 06, 2021, 11:18:46 PM
 #49

High transaction fees has always been the challenge associated with loads of blockchain starting from the Bitoin which is the flagship of cryptocurrencies and all other blockchains as well. Ethereum so far, has the most charged fees in the history of blockchain as loads of transactions gets to be verified within the same time and therefore attracts high ges fees.

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May 06, 2021, 11:42:33 PM
 #50

High gas fees has made loads of people to avoid the blockchains that are actually related with those gas fees. For example, ethereum has recorded the highest gas fees over the period of time when it came to play. The bitcoin network has also recorded high gas fees but not as much as it has been recorded with the ethereum network. Although it has been slashed by 50% but its quite difficult to see people pay outrageous amounts for gas.

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May 06, 2021, 11:47:24 PM
 #51

High gas fees has made loads of people to avoid the blockchains that are actually related with those gas fees. For example, ethereum has recorded the highest gas fees over the period of time when it came to play. The bitcoin network has also recorded high gas fees but not as much as it has been recorded with the ethereum network. Although it has been slashed by 50% but its quite difficult to see people pay outrageous amounts for gas.
and i am one of those people, i don't remember the last time i used bitcoin to buy something or to sell, i always look for other option with lower fees, but Ethereum seems to be doing just fine these days though, but nothing you can do with bitcoin if you have small amounts transactions to make.

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May 07, 2021, 02:39:44 AM
 #52

High transaction fees made my life very tough. I have earned many coins through airdrop or bounties in my wallet which transaction fees are more then their value. Eth transaction fees are out of this world. There is coin called tron what ever the market value would be but the transaction fees is only 1 trx. On  Other side  eth goes in price their fees are ahead of eth value.

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May 07, 2021, 03:11:17 AM
 #53



I have concluded Bitcoin is flawed unless you are rich and always make large purchases. I once considered buying bitcoin to purchase cannabis seeds overseas. Not anymore. It is not worth it because of the transaction fees. Add the volatility of the price to that. Why? Why would I bother? I think many others will conclude the same.

That is the decentralized nature of bitcoin, therefore we cannot determine the transaction fees we have to adjust them like most people. Sometimes high costs are influenced by the high price of bitcoin as it is today. The solution is, using coins at a low cost, this is why not only is there one cryptocurrency in the world, but we have more than hundreds by having their own superiority.

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May 07, 2021, 03:13:52 AM
 #54

High transaction fees has always been the challenge associated with loads of blockchain starting from the Bitoin which is the flagship of cryptocurrencies and all other blockchains as well. Ethereum so far, has the most charged fees in the history of blockchain as loads of transactions gets to be verified within the same time and therefore attracts high ges fees.

This is the biggest problem faced by a cryptocurrency, if it has a high cost then it will be immediately abandoned by the community. As well as eth, which at that time had very high transactions, they began to switch to bnb smart chain. I hope the project in the future has speed and generosity in transaction fees. it's a lot of fun for bitcoin which is too expensive nowadays.

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May 07, 2021, 03:57:24 AM
 #55

4 sats per byte fees are now confirming. The mempool is much clearer than it’s been for some time, might be a good idea to consolidate smaller amounts now if you want to.

Yeah.. a few hours back, some of my transactions got confirmed immediately, after paying as little as 11 Sat/Byte in fee. The Mempool is still quite bit, with 100 MB of transactions pending to be confirmed. But this is a big improvement when compared to the situation we had two weeks ago, when the size had swelled to around 250 MB. I hope everyone makes use of this opportunity to combine their smaller outputs, so that the fee can be reduced in the future.

When you say 11 Sat/Byte in fee, how much satoshi is that and how much USD is that approximately?
So you could send a transaction right now with 2 sat/byte and it would work but take very long?

Average transactions have a size of 100-150 Bytes, so a fee of 11 Sat/Byte translates to around 1200-1600 Satoshis in fee. That comes to around BTC0.000012 - BTC0.000016, and as per the current exchange rates, this amounts to $0.67-$0.90. But the size of your transaction decides everything. If your wallet contains a large number of small-sized transactions, then the size will be larger and therefore the total fee will be higher. And a fee of 2 Sat/Byte would be too low, IMO. It may never get confirmed.



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Rainbot
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May 07, 2021, 04:44:28 AM
 #56

High transaction fees has always been the challenge associated with loads of blockchain starting from the Bitoin which is the flagship of cryptocurrencies and all other blockchains as well. Ethereum so far, has the most charged fees in the history of blockchain as loads of transactions gets to be verified within the same time and therefore attracts high ges fees.

This is the biggest problem faced by a cryptocurrency, if it has a high cost then it will be immediately abandoned by the community. As well as eth, which at that time had very high transactions, they began to switch to bnb smart chain. I hope the project in the future has speed and generosity in transaction fees. it's a lot of fun for bitcoin which is too expensive nowadays.
But why it never happens? That even the transaction cost is high but people have no other options to take, they'll have to pay for for it or just leave their coins. But we have to be in mind that this will not be forever (as I believe), sooner or later, the fees will drop down together with the price. It was just now that the price is too high and in correlates to the situation we have. If I have just to transfer a coins worth $50 while I have to pay for $10, I never do that unless if I'm badly need of money.

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AGD
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May 07, 2021, 06:14:35 AM
 #57

4 sats per byte fees are now confirming. The mempool is much clearer than it’s been for some time, might be a good idea to consolidate smaller amounts now if you want to.

Yeah.. a few hours back, some of my transactions got confirmed immediately, after paying as little as 11 Sat/Byte in fee. The Mempool is still quite bit, with 100 MB of transactions pending to be confirmed. But this is a big improvement when compared to the situation we had two weeks ago, when the size had swelled to around 250 MB. I hope everyone makes use of this opportunity to combine their smaller outputs, so that the fee can be reduced in the future.

When you say 11 Sat/Byte in fee, how much satoshi is that and how much USD is that approximately?
So you could send a transaction right now with 2 sat/byte and it would work but take very long?

Average transactions have a size of 100-150 Bytes, so a fee of 11 Sat/Byte translates to around 1200-1600 Satoshis in fee. That comes to around BTC0.000012 - BTC0.000016, and as per the current exchange rates, this amounts to $0.67-$0.90. But the size of your transaction decides everything. If your wallet contains a large number of small-sized transactions, then the size will be larger and therefore the total fee will be higher. And a fee of 2 Sat/Byte would be too low, IMO. It may never get confirmed.


Right now 1 Sat/Byte txs are confirming.

Bitcoin is not a bubble, it's the pin!
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May 07, 2021, 06:31:57 AM
Merited by The Pharmacist (3)
 #58

No matter 1 or 1 billion non-mining full nodes, it has zero effect on decentralization, because all they do is relay, they don't validate ,
so this virtue is pure imagination on the part of bitcoiners, kind of you have to believe it to join the bitcoiner cult.
You're lucky that I'm ran out of demerits. Ever heard of Sybil Attack? You are contributing to the harmony of the network if you run a full node. AFAIK, you aren't connecting on the same nodes each time you establish a connection, but a Bitcoin Core expert can correct me. There's that thing called peer discovery that stimulates decentralization.

The fewer the nodes the worse the decentralization.


You seem more reasonable than the majority.   Smiley

Here is why I think the way I do about the non-mining nodes not helping decentralization.

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/50922/whats-a-sybil-attack
Quote
Sybil attacks are avoided in Bitcoin by requiring block generation ability to be proportional to computational power available through the proof-of-work mechanism. That way, an adversary is limited in how many blocks they can produce. This provides strong cryptographic guarantees of Sybil resilience.

Non-mining nodes can't generate new blocks. They only relay blocks generated by mining nodes.

What make BTC resistant to Sybil is that by segregating the evildoer's mining hashrate from the rest of the network, block propagating would stall without the rest of the network mining nodes hashrate.

All of the protection/security of Bitcoin network is from the Mining Pools and their mining nodes that generate blocks.

All a non-mining nodes does is provide the user with a local receipt copy of all transactions,
Here is an example to clear it up for you,
if I run 500 non-mining nodes from a different IP address is that more decentralized
than running 1 non-mining node. Trick question , because 1 or 500 neither generates blocks, so neither help decentralization.

If I run 10 mining nodes instead of 1 mining node, then the 10 mining nodes do increase decentralization.

If that makes sense to you , great,

if not, Have a Great Day anyway.  Smiley
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May 07, 2021, 08:05:38 AM
Last edit: May 07, 2021, 09:28:10 AM by BlackHatCoiner
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #59

If that makes sense to you , great
It does make sense to me and I get why that kink for dogecoin, from your side, but there's something that is missing from every other altcoin:  None of them has the first mover advantage.

Besides that, I notice a huge marketing manipulation from dogecoin.

44.51% of dogecoins are owned by 10 whales and 20.60% of dogecoins are owned by large investors, which means that 65% of the dogecoins are owned by these entities. I wouldn't call Dogecoin "for the rest of us", it looks rather an investment to me. In fees, it may be better than Bitcoin technically, but is it seemingly better? Nah. There may be better cryptocurrencies in the future, but none of the creators will convince you to switch from the first mover. It's just phenomenally impossible.

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May 07, 2021, 08:42:58 AM
 #60

Demerited by BlackHatCoiner (2)

There are just so many things I disagree with this message, that I'll have to demerit it.  Lips sealed


Thanks for the Demerits, I shall Cherish them.  Cheesy

1.  LN is overly Complicated.
Your opinion? That's clearly something personal. It surely is complicated for someone who doesn't know how to use Bitcoin, but someone who does? I'd rather say that he/she just lacks interest in it to say that.

Bitcoin is easy to use , for even the moderate PC person.
LN is the stuff , where you have to be a super nerd to even mess with.
This is not the majority of people.


2.  Losing your Bitcoins when LN is a real possibility if you don't follow the overly complicated rules of LN.
Once you open a channel you're locking your funds on a multi-sig address that requires both signatures to spend from. Every time you transact off-chain, you sign your final balance and you're free to broadcast it whether your node wants it or not. So, how can you lose money if you "don't follow the overly complicated rules"?

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/91211/how-can-someone-lose-funds-in-lightning-network
You lose your partner's revocation keys:
You lose the commitment transactions:
Losing funds from going offline

Random Bugs, not sure if the one below has been fixed yet.
https://bitcoinerx.com/bitcoin/90-of-bitcoins-on-the-lightning-network-could-be-lost-to-attackers-following-current-lightening-implementation-research-says/

Nothing a Super Nerd would worry over, but more than the rest of us will waste time with,  Smiley

3.  Using an EXchange offchain transactions is cheaper and easier than LN.
But you don't have bitcoins. Your exchange keeps the keys, so they own them.

So, I only leave the amount on the exchange, that I plan on spending.
No one should ever keep all of their eggs in 1 basket.
However if the exchange was reputable , and they lose my coins, I can sue them for damages.
So I can get something back.

If I lose my Funds in LN for any of the reasons mentioned earlier,
who do I sue, No one, it is just gone as a sacrifice to the crypto deity.


4.  Altcoins like Doge do what Bitcoin used to do, except faster and cheaper.
You do get that the block confirmation time of dogecoin has its downsides, don't you? If the block generation happens that fast, it makes decentralization harder to achieve.

I get most bitcoiners believe that,
but to me it is a line of BS.

Artificially limiting BTC onchain network , so that I can claim 12 year old kids are running full nodes and keeping the network less centralized is just plain wrong.
No matter 1 or 1 billion non-mining full nodes, it has zero effect on decentralization, because all they do is relay, they don't validate ,
so this virtue is pure imagination on the part of bitcoiners, kind of you have to believe it to join the bitcoiner cult.
This one confusion of the english language causes so many bitcoiners to repeat the decentralization myth.
Validation only occurs , when a transaction is added to a new block , only mining nodes can add new blocks , so only they validate.
Non-mining nodes, can't add new blocks all they can do is relay blocks, which is why 1 non-mining node is as good as a billion, since all they do is relay blocks.
If this makes no sense to you, no worries just means you are a loyal bitcoiner that does not question blockstream.  Wink



LN is no real solution, the altcoins such as Doge, have more onchain transaction capacity ,
so in the end they are better for actually using as digital money.
Lightning Network is a solution. It is very practical to transact off-chain for small micro-payments instead of broadcasting them all one-by-one in the block chain. Can you please understand that once you broadcast a transaction it gets saved on hundreds of thousands of computers world wide? You can't really believe that broadcasting a transaction every time you want a coffee is a solution, because this isn't VISA. This is the Bitcoin network and decentralization costs. The Lightning Network is the closest thing we have to accomplish the scaling issue.

I get you think LN is the solution.
Personally , I don't.

The only way it becomes a solution , is if you pay a bank to credit you with capital on their LN channels, and when finished they let you cash out in fiat. Notice at no point , do you actually buy or sell bitcoin in the above scenario. That is the only way you avoid the overly high transaction fees to open and close LN channels. But theses are just my opinions. In time, all will be apparent.  Smiley


FYI:
https://coingeek.com/lightning-strikes-out/
Quote
Hebrew University professors have disclosed another attack on Lightning Network,
but that is far from the first problem that BTC’s alleged “scaling solution,” has experienced this year.
Five years after the network launched, Lightning Network is still in a perpetual beta phase wrought with bugs, CVEs and frequent zero-day attacks that Bitcoin was created to solve in 2008.
But they persist on the network designed to steal Bitcoin transactions, process them for free by avoiding proof of work,
and the engineers claim Lightning solves Bitcoin’s supposed short-comings by (wait for it…) adding exponential complexity on a separate ledger.


+

So many things are gettin sold under the name of Bitcoin

but just is not Bitcoin

'high fees' for electronic cash to use is just one of it

Carpe diem  -  understand the White Paper and mine honest.
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