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Author Topic: Mixers under the threat?  (Read 517 times)
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April 28, 2021, 03:32:53 PM
 #21

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

The thing here is that users don't have to register on that service to use it, they only have to send the coins and provide the address where they want the 'clean coins', so, it will be kind of hard for the govs to trace the users who are washing their coins.

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April 29, 2021, 10:11:07 AM
Merited by DaveF (1)
 #22

Do you want to "mix" your bitcoins. Go ahead it's simple, go to this site and they will do it for you.

Want to do it yourself, yes it's more work but it can be done.
1) Find an open public Wi-Fi
2) Register for an anonymous email account
3) Setup an account with an exchange that has fairly liberal KYC
4) Setup another account with another exchange that has fairly liberal KYC
5) Send coins to 1st exchange, exchange to another coin, send to 2nd exchange, exchange back to BTC, withdraw, done.

If the 1st exchange has XMR or another somewhat anonymous cryptonight coin you can do 2 accounts at the same exchange BTC -> cryptonight -> send to local wallet -> send back to 2nd account at exchange -> withdraw.

Both accounts should also be created under different email addresses. But it can all be in vain, exchanges etc. often share information between one another.

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April 29, 2021, 10:24:22 AM
Last edit: April 29, 2021, 11:25:58 AM by arabspaceship123
 #23

Your method for an alternative to using mixers is good but it'll break if exchanges freeze the account and ask for identification documents. I've never used mixers before but if I had to I'd prefer using your approach with desktop Electrum wallets for ease in withdrawal if I had to do it.

I have posted it before and I'll say it again.
Mixers are for people too lazy to do something themselves.

Do you want to "mix" your bitcoins. Go ahead it's simple, go to this site and they will do it for you.

Want to do it yourself, yes it's more work but it can be done.
1) Find an open public Wi-Fi
2) Register for an anonymous email account
3) Setup an account with an exchange that has fairly liberal KYC
4) Setup another account with another exchange that has fairly liberal KYC
5) Send coins to 1st exchange, exchange to another coin, send to 2nd exchange, exchange back to BTC, withdraw, done.

If the 1st exchange has XMR or another somewhat anonymous cryptonight coin you can do 2 accounts at the same exchange BTC -> cryptonight -> send to local wallet -> send back to 2nd account at exchange -> withdraw.

Never used a mixer or did the above, never saw any reason to, but it's not that difficult.

Side thought, makes you wonder if some of the exchanges that people say have faked volume are just a bunch of bots doing the above. Doubt it, but you never know.

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April 29, 2021, 11:03:51 AM
 #24

A bit time consuming, but really fine approach, I like it and definitely need to add this to my armory. Didn't get the importance of number 1. Does it  matter if instead  of public WiFi  I will use  my home WiFi + VPN? VPN provider could know  only one thing i.e.  I was in communication with exchange but they  will not knowing about transaction I made to  exchange.

To a point yes, but there is still a record of you talking to an exchange somewhere for the 1st transaction. If the VPN provider ever gave up their records then it's a small & unprovable data point but you can see someone talking to exchange "X" on this VPN from this persons location and then some coins moved to that exchange.

If you pay for your coffee and bagel in cash, except for some GPS records in your car / phone there is no proof you went to the bagel shop for breakfast and used their Wi-Fi


Both accounts should also be created under different email addresses. But it can all be in vain, exchanges etc. often share information between one another.

Never heard of that. Guess that is why XMR and other privacy coins can be handy. Any discussion on the forum about it?

Your method for an alternative to using mixers is good but it'll break if exchanges freeze the account and ask for identification documents. I've never used mixers before but if I'd prefer using your approach with desktop Electrum wallets for ease in withdrawal if I had to do it.

And a mixer can run & scam at any time too, this way if you do your own research you can find some *somewhat* trustworthy exchanges.
Not saying you are going to not get burnt at some point in time.

-Dave

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April 30, 2021, 03:22:00 PM
 #25

Both accounts should also be created under different email addresses. But it can all be in vain, exchanges etc. often share information between one another.

Never heard of that. Guess that is why XMR and other privacy coins can be handy. Any discussion on the forum about it?

Not sure if it was discussed anywhere on bitcointalk but it's easy for an outsider to deduce that they're doing it with all the source of funds questions that are popular in conjunction with the proliferation of blockchain analysis services being used by so-called VASPs. Even Binance has been using them for couple years now.

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April 30, 2021, 08:52:44 PM
 #26

Your way of using exchanges is good but exchanges reserve the right to ask for identification documents, mixers don't ask. I've heard about mixers that scammed so it's all about doing proper research to find trustworthy exchanges or mixers. If more mixer owners are arrested on suspicion of criminal activities it's going to get very interesting.


Your method for an alternative to using mixers is good but it'll break if exchanges freeze the account and ask for identification documents. I've never used mixers before but if I'd prefer using your approach with desktop Electrum wallets for ease in withdrawal if I had to do it.

And a mixer can run & scam at any time too, this way if you do your own research you can find some *somewhat* trustworthy exchanges.
Not saying you are going to not get burnt at some point in time.

-Dave

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May 01, 2021, 06:18:51 AM
 #27

Interesting and other news, which was also posted on this forum. The FBI also uses mixers to hide transactions with confiscated bitcoins.
While the authorities openly state that mixing contributes to crime, the FBI itself does not hesitate to use them. https://news.bitcoin.com/report-claims-fbi-bitcoin-mixers-btc-forfeiture-processing/
Holy shit, I don't know what to say about this kind of thing, they are really hypocritical in terms of enforcement of the law, I really wanted to side with the law against mixers/tumblers but this news even though a speculation made me change teams real quick.
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May 01, 2021, 08:41:11 AM
 #28

If Bitcoin is not money like United States regulations claims but Security and virtual currency, how can someone be charged for Money Laundering when no money was involved, but just mixing of coins?
Your mistake here is expecting the US government to be consistent. They will apply whichever rule(s) benefit(s) them most at the time. Consistency or even obeying the law is irrelevant.

-snip-
This is possible, but there are significant additional risks over using an established mixer. Either or both exchanges could freeze your accounts and demand KYC at any time, meaning you either lose your coins or you make your privacy significantly worse. Exchanges share records with each other, share records with blockchain analysis companies or even employ blockchain analysis companies, and share records with governments and associated agencies. Exchanges look backwards from deposits and forwards from withdrawals for several transaction to track where money has come from and where it is going.

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May 01, 2021, 11:36:24 PM
 #29

The latest - Roman Sterlingov has been identified as operator of bitcoin mixing service entitled as  Bitcoin  Fog and arrested by  U.S. authorities for involvement into money laundering schemes. In this regard, the question arose as to the extent of the readiness of U.S authorities  to file charges for both running and using any bitcoin mixer. I think most of them are under such threat... what about you?


So what about the bitcoin mixer services which are not US based and U.S. authorities will not be able to take any action against it. You can run an anonymous bitcoin mixer service and avoid any kind of plenty.
Also, if all the bitcoin mixer services are stopped, you can still do money laundering through exchanges which allow you to deposit withdraw without KYC.
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May 02, 2021, 04:08:20 AM
 #30

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...
That's my take on the issue of using mixer too, I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be? Bitcoin is pseudonymous enough for someone to not get tracked online.

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May 02, 2021, 11:55:55 AM
 #31

So what about the bitcoin mixer services which are not US based and U.S. authorities will not be able to take any action against it.
International laws or treaties are irrelevant to the US government. We are the world police, after all.

I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...
Nonsense. There is a difference between having nothing to hide and having nothing you want to share publicly.

I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be?
If privacy is irrelevant to you, then I'm sure you'll be quite happy sharing your real name, address, email address, phone number, bank statements, and internet browsing history publicly in this thread. No? Then what do you have against people not wanting their entire bitcoin transaction history to be public knowledge?
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May 02, 2021, 12:02:08 PM
 #32

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

The thing here is that users don't have to register on that service to use it, they only have to send the coins and provide the address where they want the 'clean coins', so, it will be kind of hard for the govs to trace the users who are washing their coins.

this is a question equal to the question of possession of weapons. some people argue that civilian people cannot have weapons, that weapons should only be with the military and the police because the number of crimes could be frightening if everyone has weapons, with mixers it's the same, we can't think that when someone creates a mixer the goal was to want criminals to use the mixer, but we also can't deny that criminals are supposed to be the mixers' biggest customers.


so we have to think: will mixers do more good than bad?

how many honest people mix many bitcoins? how many criminal people mix bitcoin?

I do not agree with KYC, it is unfair, it is not fair that we have to do KYC for sites where the owners are anonymous, this is unfair and wrong

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May 02, 2021, 12:20:21 PM
 #33

Money laundering can easily be done in bitcoin mixer, that's part of the risk, in fact, there are already a lot of bitcoin mixers that have close their business due to this big threat, but we can't deny that there are still mixers operating until now, we just have to be aware of the risk and make use of their service while they are still operating.

The thing is, the government wants to treat every business that deals with money as a bank, that they can be regulated through their centralized policy.

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May 02, 2021, 01:48:39 PM
 #34

but we also can't deny that criminals are supposed to be the mixers' biggest customers.
Absolutely not true. The best data we have from Chainalysis says that only 8% of funds passed through mixers are from illicit sources, which is a far cry away from being mixers' "biggest customers".

so we have to think: will mixers do more good than bad?
Undeniably. If you make privacy illegal, then only criminals will have privacy.

how many honest people mix many bitcoins? how many criminal people mix bitcoin?
From the same report from Chainalysis, the most common source for funds sent to mixers is directly from centralized exchange. So mixers' biggest customers are actually honest users who simply don't want exchanges spying on them and linking all future transactions back to their personal data.
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May 02, 2021, 06:56:29 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #35

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...
That's my take on the issue of using mixer too, I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be? Bitcoin is pseudonymous enough for someone to not get tracked online.

I don't want to be the fanboy but you might want to read up on privacy (hey maybe even the Cypherpunk Manifesto or the one from ProjectVRM) then perhaps you might gain insight and perspective on why some people believe that protecting your privacy goes beyond your rights, but is in fact, your duty to yourself and to society.

I don't need to hide a lot of things myself, and choose deliberately not to, for purposes of obeying the laws of the jurisdiction I reside in.

But I also choose deliberately to keep private some things I don't want the whole world to know.

Privacy isn't secrecy.

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hazenyc
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May 10, 2021, 10:36:31 PM
 #36

This is the document that has been filed (13 pages long):
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.230456/gov.uscourts.dcd.230456.1.1_2.pdf

The agent behind the investigation depicts the facts that he found, that support the three charges. A few key points:
-   Bitcoin Fog has been active since 2011.

-   Even though there is a clear site for visibility, the service seems to be Tor based.

-   Over 1,2M BTCs have been mixed through the service (chain-analysis forensics data).

-   They identify as the largest senders through the service Agora, Silk Road, Evolution and AlplhaBay.

-   The site was originally announced … on Bitcointalk (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50037.msg596034#msg596034). Reading through, it’s clear that the officer in charge read all the related posts on the forum (warning for others).

-   An undercover direct TX was sent to the Mixer in September 2019, and on November 2019 another controlled TX, being the latter originated from an undercover account on Apollon darknet market. They also sent a message to the admin to indicate that they were going to mix BTCs obtained through illegal activity.

-   Sterlingov used the same email on his Bitcointalk account, as that to register the mixer domain. He paid for the domain using a Liberty Reserve account (a Costa Rica currency Exchange). The document depicts how they linked that to a Mt. Gox account (multiple steps in-between), and yes, they got access to IP logs to help tie things around (Liberty Reserve and, apparently Mt.Gox). Also records from Google were used in the loop…

So information dating back nearly a decade ago, and some sweet collaboration, managed to identify Sterlingov, and tie him to the Mixer…

Thanks for outlining this. I am sure authorities have a whole horde working on getting an overview about the crypto world. It is still a question of manpower and I guess they can't hunt everyone down but focus on the guys that play an important role in one way or another. As you described it they carefully build the puzzle over time, subpoenaed companies like Google to nail it down with full certainty. The internet knows it all.
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May 10, 2021, 11:31:21 PM
 #37

I’m amazed mixers are still operating after all this time. It seems like they have got to be high on the list of regulators looking to shut down sketchy operations. I assume those remaining are probably operating out of interesting locations or doing their best to remain anonymous. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that regulators will be trying everything they can to arrest operators of high volume mixers as well as attempt to unmask their user base.

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May 11, 2021, 01:17:16 PM
 #38

The similarity on how they caught him and how they caught Ross Ulbricht are the same, because both of them used their email to register domains or centralized services that could be linked to their real identity.  Roll Eyes

How difficult can it be for these people to get "throwaway" email addresses? In any way, to answer your question... " if Mixers are under threat?" ... Answer : Yes, definitely.

Do you think for one moment governments will not hunt down people running a mixer service that are used for criminal actions? (The owners of these sites cannot say, they did not know people are using their sites for criminal actions)

Will he be extradited to the US? No. I am also curious on what will happen with "DarkSide" (supposedly a Russian group) ....when the US can pin them for the Oil pipeline ransomware attack. (Was this government sanctioned?.. they say no.)  Huh

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May 11, 2021, 09:25:22 PM
 #39

The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.
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May 12, 2021, 10:51:05 AM
 #40

The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.

If you function like a money transmitter even if it is only by redirecting funds in exchange for a fee I think you can get into trouble in a lot of countries. The prosecutors will find ways to bend their law such that you do function like a transmitter. If a person comes to you in real life and gives you a suitcase with $100,000 and says hey bring this to that address and I'll give you some reward, I am not sure which laws exactly you break but I know you would be in trouble.
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