Test Sending from Nano Ledger without Actually Sending?

[jerry0]

I don't want to post this in an older thread as it would be cluttered since I made lot of posts on it.  So I will make it very simple.



I want to make sure the btc balance I have showing on my ledger live is indeed the btc balance i have connected to my nano ledger.  Reason being old nano ledger broke a while back, got replacement nano ledger and put in the seed to restore it and it confirmed to work... but i want to make sure that is the seed that is connected to my old nano ledger since that one has my balance there.  I have a few other nano ledger seeds i wrote down which im positive are seeds that have no balances... so i want to make sure.



So example... say before my old nano ledger s broke, everytime i checked my ledger live it showed i had 3 btc to make it simple.  So even when i logged in ledger live it always showed that balance.  I then got replacement nano ledger and restored seed into it.  I then deleted the accounts on ledger live... then readded them... im pretty sure when i readded them... i needed to make sure the replacement nano ledger had to be connected to my laptop right?  Otherwise, you can't just add or readd accounts without having the device connected to it.  Can anyone confirm this?

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[jerry0]

So months ago, I did my first transaction with my replacement nano ledger where i received tiny bit of btc.  So when i did this, i connect replacement nano ledger to laptop, click on receive and it showed receiving address on laptop screen and also on nano ledger screen itself.  Then a bit later, i received that tiny bit of btc.  Let say it was 0.0005 btc.  So now my portfolio shows combined balance of 3.0005 btc.  It also shows that amount on the bitcoin 1 segwit balance.  Such as it went from 3btc to 3.0005 btc so that is correct.



Now if I want to send say 0.002 btc to coinbase with my replacement nano ledger s wallet, i know l00% i can do this since i received 0.005 btc not long ago.  But i want to make sure i still have my entire balance that is showing on ledger live.  So say i want to send 0.05 btc to coinbase.



Is there a way for me to confirm on my replacement nano ledger that i could actually send 0.05 btc to coinbase or any other site without sending it?  I know i would connect my replacement nano ledger to my laptop, then click send... then it shows a place to put say the coinbase address.  Now say i copy/paste my coinbase address there.  Then when i type in how much btc i wantt to send... it would then show like max 3.0005 btc or so after fees on the app right?  Like i don't mind trying to send 0.05 btc now to coinbase as i don't mind making sure it works... but cashing some out.  But i want to make sure i have up to that amount.  Because when i used electrum back then, when i went to send btc, it would show the max i could send such as well... my electrum balance.  But with nano ledger s... is the method the same?  Like for example, you can't type in an amount of btc which you don't have on your nano ledger before it confirms right?  Like you can't put down... send 5 btc when your balance is only 3.0005 btc balance right?



I want to make it to that step where right before i send... it ask you to confirm to send... then i reject it.  Like if i am able to put 0.05 btc to send... then it goes to okay sending 0.05 btc to this address... confirm or reject... if i make it to that part of the sending process... then it would confirm i have the entire btc balance showing on ledger live right?



Basically I want to confirm i have my entire btc balance on ledger live... without actually sending btc.  Can i do this or not?  And doing this would confirm this?  Like if it does say... i can't send 0.05 btc because i only have a 0.005 balance etc.

[BitMaxz]

Is there a way for me to confirm on my replacement nano ledger that i could actually send 0.05 btc to coinbase or any other site without sending it?

This one makes me confused.

Are you going to send 0.05BTC to Coinbase offline?
Or you have a problem with your ledger after you replace your broken ledger with a new one? Is it show incorrect balance in your ledger nano?

If it shows the correct balance from your Ledger live with your new ledger nano sending 0.05BTC should be work without confirming it unless if the balance show is lower than the sending amount.

And about deleting and adding an account in your new ledger nano with ledger live it must synchronize first so that the ledger live will request new data transaction history from the blockchain.
Once it's done it must show the correct balance and able to send any amount you want to any addresses of your choice.

[jerry0]

I want to confirm i could send 0.05 btc from my replacement nano ledger to coinbase.  Let say my ledger live shows 3 btc.  Let say i received 0.005 btc months ago to the replacement nano ledger.  So my balance is 3.0005 btc.  I have never once sent any btc with my replacement nano ledger after i restored an old nano ledger seed into it.  So i want to make sure i have full access to the btc in my ledger live portfolio accounts.


Thus if i were to right now try to send 0.002 btc from replacement nano ledger to coinbase, obviously it will work since i received 0.005 btc to it few months ago. But i want to make sure i have full access to all my btc in the ledger live accounts.  Does that make sense?


My main concern is when my old nano ledger s broke... I didn't get a replacement nano ledger till a bit later... i also didn't have my seed with me at the time.  So when i finally had both of that... i restored my old nano ledger seed into the replacement nano ledger s and it showed processing and then correct which mean my seed was correct.  But i want to make sure l00% that seed i entered... was the seed connected to my btc/bch balance in my old nano ledger.  Does that make sense?  Reason i say this is because i wrote a few other seeds as well when i first bought the original nano ledger but those seeds had nothing there.  Those were seeds i created... then intentionally put wrong pin three times to reset it.  I did this twice with the first two seeds in my original nano ledger before when i set up my old nano ledger the third time... then i wrote that seed and then sent my btc from electrum to it.  But during that time, i never reset my old nano ledger to test if the seed was correct.  But when the old nano ledger seed broke, i had to get replacement nano ledger and restore the seed with it.  Does that make sense?  The seed i entered into the replacement nano ledger is correct... but i want to make sure that seed is tied directly to my coins in the old nano ledger and NOT one of those seeds with 0 balances on it.






For a few months, all my old transactions with btc and electrum no longer showed up in ledger live history.  I was told this wasn't possible.  But when i did that clear cache on ledger live, it showed all the transactions i ever did etc.



My balance on ledger live was always correct. 



But I want to make sure the seed that is attached to my replacement nano ledger now... which is the old seed for the old broken nano ledger... is indeed connected to my entire balance on ledger live.  I'm not sure if my language is confusing here or whatnot... but I'm confused why lot of people are confused with what im asking here.  Its like saying... hey i see you have this amount of btc in your accounts history in ledger live... but those accounts might not be linked to this nano ledger and its seed... does that make sense?



I want to try to see if I could even send 0.05 btc from my replacement nano ledger to coinbase.  To do this... i know i need to connect my ledger to it.. then click send... then copy/paste my coinbase btc address... then i would type in 0.05 btc right?  Then when i do this, it would ask me to confirm in the nano ledger screen... hey you want to to send 0.05 btc to that coinbase address right?  But before i could even type the amount of btc i want to send... would it show the max amount i could send?  Example... say you have 3.0005 btc in your ledger live balance... if on that sending page... you tried to put down 5 btc to send... it would show error right and you wouldn't even get to the screen where it ask you... sending 5 btc to btc address XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX confirm or reject?


My main concern is the 3 btc in the ledger live balance and accounts is not associated with the seed in this replacement nano ledger... but one of the other seeds i wrote down.  Does that make sense?  Or is that impossible based on the information I gave you?  I just want to make sure i could send 0.05 btc... so if i can and it does go through, then obviously the entire 3.0005 btc balance is connected to this nano ledger/seed.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[Pmalek]

When you start the sending procedure in Ledger Live, you will have to add a bitcoin receiving address. After that you add the amount you want to send. If you total Bitcoin bag is 3.5 BTC, that will be the maximum you can send as well. If you tried to enter 10 BTC, the little box would be highlighted in red and/or there will be a notification that says you don't have the amount you are trying to send.

If you want to test it, just go ahead. Enter those 0.005 BTC you mentioned and click on send/next (I don't remember the correct names of the buttons). Enter a valid mining fee and continue. After a few clicks the transaction information will be shown on the screen of your Nano S. You will see the receiving address, the amount you trying to send, and the address you are sending to. At that point, cancel the transaction, pack up your gear, and relax for the love of God.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you received 0.0005 BTC to an address which you verified on your hardware device, and the 3 BTC is in the same account, then you have nothing to worry about. If the 3 BTC is in a different account, then Pmalek has given you the right answer. Just try to make a transaction. If it pushes to your hardware device to be signed, then that device is indeed linked to those coins with the correct seed phrase, and you can then just reject the transaction on your hardware device.

Alternatively, create a new Electrum wallet from your hardware device and see if all the coins show up.

Alternatively, delete all your accounts from Ledger Live and then rescan your hardware device for new accounts.

[jerry0]

Right now I logged into ledger live and I connected nano ledger to laptop.



Step one


I copied/paste my coinbase address to send to.  Then i selected bitcoin 1 segwit at the bottom for the account to debit since there is where my btc balance is.





Step two


Maximum spendable amount is X btc.  That X btc amount is the amount of btc i have in my portfoiio in ledger live.  I then put 0.05 btc to send and just put standard fees 





Step three


From Bitcoin 1 segwit

To

Coinbase btc addresss



Shows the btc amount 0.05 btc
                                 btc amount in USD


Network fees in both btc and btc and in USD

Total to debit...  in BTC and USD







Step Four


Please confirm the operation on your device to finalize it


Amount    0.05 btc
Fees         0.000017908 btc


On nano ledger deviceit shows


Review output 1

0.05 btc

Address in three parts

Accept

Reject


I clicked on reject and then it shows Red Exclamation Mark on Ledger LIve and shows


Operation denied on device.

Please retry to contact ledger support if in doubt

Save logs
 







Does this confirm I own all those coins in my btc wallet because in the last step, it got to the accept/reject part?

[jerry0]

The thing is I then disconnected my nano ledger from laptop.  


Then just went and did the exact steps I did in the post above with putting 0.05 btc to send and my coinbase address.  Everything was literally the same as in it showed the same maximum spendable amount of btc and I was free to type any amount of btc to spend up to the maximum spendable amount?  


But when i got to the fourth and last step, it then ask me to connect and unlock my device.  I did not do this part.


So is there any concern here?  I'm surprised why it even let me enter any amount up to the maximum btc in my wallet even when I didn't connect my nano ledger yet?  Again if you had an old account in your ledger live that isn't connected to your replacement nano ledger seed which you use now, then what happens?


Such as so what would happen if you connect a different seed nano ledger that isn't connected to the account linked to those btc seed in ledger live?  What message would it show?





But in my previous post... if the nano ledger screen showed output 0.05 btc... show my coinbase btc address in three parts... then accept or reject... is that 100% I own those btc then?

[Rath_]

So is there any concern here?  I'm surprised why it even let me enter any amount up to the maximum btc in my wallet even when I didn't connect my nano ledger yet?  

Ledger Live stores your accounts' master extended public keys, so it obviously knows the balance of your accounts even if your device is not connected. Since it knows your balance, it can tell you how much you can send.

Again if you had an old account in your ledger live that isn't connected to your replacement nano ledger seed which you use now, then what happens?

You would probably be prompted to connect a different device.

But in my previous post... if the nano ledger screen showed output 0.05 btc... show my coinbase btc address in three parts... then accept or reject... is that 100% I own those btc then?

         
Yes, you should now be 100% certain that you can control those coins. In fact, the ability to add the account you are talking about should have been a sufficient proof.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

[HCP]

So is there any concern here?  I'm surprised why it even let me enter any amount up to the maximum btc in my wallet even when I didn't connect my nano ledger yet?  Again if you had an old account in your ledger live that isn't connected to your replacement nano ledger seed which you use now, then what happens?

Coins are not stored in your device... coins are not stored in your Ledger Live... coins "exist" as UTXOs recorded on the blockchain.

Ledger Live has a copy of your master public key for any account that you have added into it... it uses this to determine what UTXOs exist that are controlled by the public keys generated from that master key.

So, you don't need the device to create an unsigned transaction... and to create the transaction, you have to specify the amounts... hence why it lets you attempt to spend the full balance without needing the device attached.

If, when prompted to attach the device to sign/confirm the transaction, you connected a device with a different seed, it obviously wouldn't be able to sign it as it would not have the appropriate private keys.


Generally, if you add an account in Ledger Live (which requires the device attached), and you can see coins/balance... then you can be certain that you can control them.

[jerry0]

What would have happened had I put in a nano ledger that had a 0 balance into my laptop once i hit that last step where it ask me to connect and unlock the device?   Has anyone tried this though?


Yes i know coins are not stored in device.. its in the blockchain.  I know the way i phrase it makes it sound like that.


You say ledger live has copy of your master public key for an account you that you have added to it... but what about those you deleted though?  Those aren't there anymore though right?  Such as only way to add those again is connect the nano ledger that is connected to those accounts and that is only way?


Okay I didn't know you need to connect device to create an unsigned transaction.  I was surprised it actually allowed me to put up to the max balance to send on it... when no nano ledger is even connected to it.


Well when i originally connect my nano ledger to laptop and did all those steps, I did go to the last step though where it then showed



Please confirm the operation on your device to finalize it


Amount    0.05 btc
Fees         0.000017908 btc


On nano ledger deviceit shows


Review output 1

0.05 btc

Address in three parts

Accept

Reject


I clicked on reject and then it shows Red Exclamation Mark on Ledger LIve and shows


Operation denied on device.

Please retry to contact ledger support if in doubt

Save logs
 


So you are saying its basically impossible for me to even get to this part then right if I didn't have that amount of btc to send?  Like had the seed i restored 6 months ago to this nano ledger... was one of the seeds with a 0 balance... then there would be 0 way it would even display the accept/reject right? 


Well HCP, remember when i first restored the seed with the replacement nano ledger... I saw the same accounts were still there.  Then I thought okay the seed is connected to my old broken nano ledger balance.  Then i thought wait a minute, those accounts were already there so how i make sure... then you said delete those accounts.  Then connect your replacement nano ledger to it...then add accounts... and once you do that... the accounts connected to that seed will reappear.  Then it did... and you said if it was same balances, its the correct seed i restored.  This is correct right?  Again my concern was 6 months ago when i restored the correct seed to the replacement nano ledger, i was concerned it was one of those seeds that had 0 balance etc.

[jerry0]

Wouldn't hurt for me to send like 0.05 btc to coinbase now and do it with a small transaction fee?  I see fees now are much lower... so how much sat/vbyte would you recommend?  Standard shows 89 sat/vbyte now which is a bit more than 8 dollars.  Someone tell me you could literally do even as low as 4 sat/vbyte but you wouldn't suggest this right?  You would say do at least 10 sat/vbyte?  I know you told me last time i would waste money on sending if i dont have to.  I mean i wouldnt like sending it for 8 dollars but if i could do it for less, i wouldn't mind.



Also, even if I do it with a very low fee, the moment i sent it... even if it takes many hours for transaction to confirm, i can always type that transaction number on one of those tx sites to see the transaction and how much confirmations it has right?  But for me, I want to make sure that transaction goes through.  So once it shows in that site where you can check tranactions, then its confirmed that 0.05 btc is sent?  Or once you click accept in the nano ledger screen, it will show confirmed on ledger screen and also on the ledger live client?  Again... i haven't send any btc from ledger live to any site in a very long time.  Last time I did it ... was with my old broken nano ledger.



Thanks.

[Pmalek]

What would have happened had I put in a nano ledger that had a 0 balance into my laptop once i hit that last step where it ask me to connect and unlock the device?   Has anyone tried this though?

Each transaction has to be signed with the private keys that are stored in the secure element of your Nano S. If you attempted to spend an UTXO that you can't sign because you have recovered accounts from a wrong seed, obviously it wouldn't work because you don't have the private keys yet. To get the correct signing keys, you would have to restore your accounts with the correct seed. 

You say ledger live has copy of your master public key for an account you that you have added to it... but what about those you deleted though?  Those aren't there anymore though right? 

Your Ledger still holds the keys for those. You have only deleted the accounts in the interface/portfolio.

So you are saying its basically impossible for me to even get to this part then right if I didn't have that amount of btc to send?  Like had the seed i restored 6 months ago to this nano ledger... was one of the seeds with a 0 balance... then there would be 0 way it would even display the accept/reject right? 

You can't spend 10 bitcoin if you only have 1. You can only spend the amount available in that account you call "Segwit 1".

<Snip>Then it did... and you said if it was same balances, its the correct seed i restored.  This is correct right?

Yes, that's still correct.

Wouldn't hurt for me to send like 0.05 btc to coinbase now and do it with a small transaction fee?

Why, just to check again if you have that amount? How many times are we going to go over the same things over and over again? 

I see fees now are much lower... so how much sat/vbyte would you recommend?

He would recommend that you check https://mempool.space/ or https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),8h,weight the moment you want to send and enter the fees according to the CURRENT state of the mempool. Those recommendations of 89 or 4 sats/vByte were valid back then, they aren't anymore.

Also, even if I do it with a very low fee, the moment i sent it... even if it takes many hours for transaction to confirm, i can always type that transaction number on one of those tx sites to see the transaction and how much confirmations it has right?

If the transaction is valid and the fees are above the purging level, you can enter the hash in a blockchain explorer and follow the status of it there. It will be visible in the explorer even before the transaction gets confirmed. It will show status 'unconfirmed'. 

But for me, I want to make sure that transaction goes through.  So once it shows in that site where you can check tranactions, then its confirmed that 0.05 btc is sent?

If it says confirmed - it's confirmed. If it says unconfirmed or pending - it isn't.

[HCP]

Just send the 0.05 BTC already and put us all out of our misery... when you do so, please use a fee of 1098234832098 sats/vbyte... then you won't have any BTC and you'll stop bugging us with the same questions... over and over and over and over and over

Honestly mate... how many times do you need to hear the same answer before you'll believe us? 10? 100? 100080328493274932749832?

I'm honestly curious, because this thread is now 15 posts long... and it seems that you're no closer to understanding (or believing the explanations of) the very core basics of how a Ledger Nano S and Ledger Live work.

So, let's try and summarise shall we:

1. For an account to be added into Ledger Live, the master public key has to be read from the Nano S device
2. For the master public key to be read from the Nano S device, the device has to have the appropriate seed
3. For the appropriate seed to be in the device, the device must have had the correct 12/24 words entered into it (and/or BIP39 passphrase used)
4. Once an account is added into Ledger Live, the device DOES NOT need to be connected to view the account (LL has the master public key stored)
5. If you delete an account, the master public key for that account is deleted, and CAN NOT be re-added with the device
6. Ledger Live will allow you to create (unsigned) transactions WITHOUT the device connected
7. You cannot sign a transaction without the device being connected and without the device having the appropriate seed (refer #3)

If you feel you need to transfer 0.05BTC to some other wallet to satisfy yourself it's all working... then just do it... don't ask about fees or when or how... just fucking do it already!

[dkbit98]

Just send the 0.05 BTC already and put us all out of our misery... when you do so, please use a fee of 1098234832098 sats/vbyte... then you won't have any BTC and you'll stop bugging us with the same questions... over and over and over and over and over

I honestly don't know why all of you guys keep answering this guy repeated fake questions unless you like to play this game, and I don't know if he just hunts for merits and higher rank or what but it sure is very annoying.
He owns more accounts like this one Thomas29 that writes with same style so maybe he is some farmer idk.