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Author Topic: bitcoin for everyone  (Read 782 times)
AKalinousky
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May 10, 2021, 09:14:20 AM
Last edit: May 11, 2021, 07:08:15 PM by AKalinousky
 #1

*the post has been edited based on the reply in this topic as of 11 May 2021 22:00
some stat:
  * "the world population was estimated to have reached 7,800,000,000 people as of March 2020" (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=number+of+people+on+the+planet)
  * bitcoin current supply: 18,660,000;
    minus 3,700,000 ( "Around 3.7 million bitcoin, currently worth around $140 billion, appears to be permanently lost or stranded in disused digital wallets, US-based paper The New York Times reported Tuesday." / https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=how+many+bitcoins+lost+forewer)
    total: 14,960,000

in case of equal distribution as of may 2021 (no worries, it won't happen): 14,960,000 / 7,800,000,000 = 0.0019179 btc per person / 191790 sat per person
with the current average price of $55,000 per BTC : 0.00221794*55000 = 105.48 $ per person;

now let's dream a little bit.


some more stat:
 * "The world's population is projected to reach 8.5 billion by 2030, 9.7 billion by 2050" (https://www.google.com/search?q=number+of+people+by+2030);

year 2050:

some if's and assumptions:
 *99.9% of population has access to electricity and internet;
 * robots almost ready to do all the dirtiest and manual work for humans;
 *humans do mostly intellectual work, craft, art, etc.; they still can do manual and dirty work though, but only if they want to;
 *energy is clean, unlimited and practically free;
 *bitcoin has matured and evolved, got strength and new qualities:
   - become easy and convenient to use, cheap (low/no fees) and fast (processing time);
   - stayed decentralized;
   - become capable of self-defence (developed a mechanism against manipulation and abuse of the system);
    - governed by users/holders (has different levels of voting systems and various electoral, autonomous bodies within the system that counterbalance and equilibrate each other to avoid corruption and abuse of power);
    - has a mechanism of suppression of unnecessary urge for greed and unreasonable enrichment (various fee in case one holding more than need or speculate);
    - stimulate trust, help and support for those who are in temporal difficulties (unforeseen circumstances, illness, etc);
    - has a mechanism of discouraging laziness and make no room for freeloaders (want a bite - do your part);

some more if's:
 * bitcoin current supply: 20,900,000;
  minus 3,700,000 ;
  total: 17,200,000;
 * bitcoin slowly has been redistributed to all people on the planet: big holders willingly and voluntarily sell their surplus of bitcoins to bitcoinless folks (it is not profitable and respectful anymore to hold more than you need);
   
remember the year is 2050:

17,200,000 / 9,700,000,000 = 0.00177319 btc per person / 177319 sat per person;
with the price goes up to $1,000,000 per BTC : 0.00177319*1000000 = 1,773.19 $ (but who cares about fiat in 2050?)

177319 sat per person / a golden standard / - an average living wage for a common citizen of the world;

SO. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on Earth, BUT it has NOT to be on the base of forceable expropriation and equal redistribution. the mechanism has to be just, transparent, beneficial for everybody, stimulating trust and honesty, fighting greed, corruption and laziness.
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May 10, 2021, 09:21:09 AM
 #2

all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!

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May 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
 #3


Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!
Maybe someone would give their hard earned money because they want to or out of the goodness out of their heart, are you that deprived of good will that you think that there is no charitable person anymore? There's Jimmy Donaldson aka Mr. beast as a good example.

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May 10, 2021, 10:01:19 AM
 #4

all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!

It is the old idea that in a communist world everything would be wonderful, when the pure reality is that if all the wealth of the world were confiscated and distributed equally, the next day there would be rich and poor again, because some would save and invest and others would spend it all immediately on whores and drugs (to give extreme examples).

The only way to ensure "equality" would be, the day after, to confiscate again those who save and invest to give it to those who have spent it on whores and drugs.

And we would all live happily ever after.





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May 10, 2021, 10:14:13 AM
 #5

out of the goodness out of their heart

Yeah, giving out 950 bn USD out of good hearth. Try to understand the size of these numbers, then think again.

It is the old idea that in a communist world everything would be wonderful

I was told that back in primary school: you would be able to get any goods for free. I kept wondering that then why would anybody work at all and how who would produce those goods...
Then the shortages started and they stopped insulting our intelligence with that crap.

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May 10, 2021, 10:15:06 AM
 #6

This sounds very interesting, but we are living in a capitalist system. Goods and money are not being spread equally around. So far there are only a small number of political parties who want to transfer wealth between the rich and the poor. The same thing would need to happen with bitcoins. Everybody who has more than 120 USD of bitcoins would need to give their coins away.  How could we force people to do so? If one country would start to enforce such rules that the citizens who have bitcoins would probably leave and relocate to another country. Who here would be willing to give up all his coins?

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May 10, 2021, 10:22:50 AM
 #7

out of the goodness out of their heart

Yeah, giving out 950 bn USD out of good hearth. Try to understand the size of these numbers, then think again.
Well, no one has that much money alone so I don't get how you are going to give it and I think that if you have that much money, you should start thinking about giving some of it.

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May 10, 2021, 10:25:48 AM
 #8

out of the goodness out of their heart

Yeah, giving out 950 bn USD out of good hearth. Try to understand the size of these numbers, then think again.
Well, no one has that much money alone so I don't get how you are going to give it and I think that if you have that much money, you should start thinking about giving some of it.

I know. Still, this is what OP is suggesting (with his odd calculations and lack of Bitcoin knowledge) and you were too.
However, I suggest you two make a new coin and send it to every people from the world.

(And yes, by this I also mean that if you would - hypothetically - do this with Bitcoin, it will become basically worthless.)

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May 10, 2021, 10:31:44 AM
 #9

That's an interesting research and calculation that you've made. I think it will be easier to read if you'll reconstruct the post and make it more formal through redesigning it.

At the end of it, with all the number of population that we've got in the world and with bitcoin's limited supply. If you ever had bitcoin whether it's not a whole bitcoin but you hold it with few decimals, you're lucky guy to hold it while the rest aren't even interested holding a few.

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May 10, 2021, 11:22:12 AM
 #10


so. even in the most extreme case equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on earth is quite resanable and 1* ten to the sixth power USD per BTC looks alright. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

I'd say it is quite an interesting topic and I like the idea of giving charity or donations. However, I don't think Bitcoin will be a good tool to make it happen because first of all, not everyone has access to this cryptocurrency like Bitcoin so even if you allocated it equally I still don't think everyone will benefit from it. There's a possibility that it might just sit on their wallet and not use single any of it. Perhaps if you will plan to have a kind of charity like this one using FIAT would be much appropriate.

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May 10, 2021, 11:48:48 AM
 #11

all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!

first of all you sound a bit haughty and arrogant, we are all friends here. no need to be rude  Wink secondly,  who said anything about "give for free the hard-earned money"? equal distribution does not mean expropriate and redistribute. it means redestribute on market base principals. reflow from the oceans to the local seas, ponds, puddles and cups. how to do it? i don't know. is it possible? i don't know. will it make the world a better place? i don't know. will it kill bitcoin or immortalize forever? i don't know.
the point is that people's money has to be people's money/
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May 10, 2021, 12:06:23 PM
 #12

1.There aren't 21M Bitcoins,because a few million Bitcoins are already lost or will be lost forever.
2.I don't get your idea about equal distribution.OK everyone will get the same amount of BTC,but what happens after that?Some people will lose their BTC due to scams(or forget their passwords and private keys),other people will waste their BTC,buying stuff they don't need or playing crypto gambling.Eventually the BTC will be concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy people.That's how capitalism works.
3.Many poor people in the underdeveloped countries don't have computers and internet.How do you plan to give them Bitcoins?




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May 10, 2021, 12:11:03 PM
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 #13

first of all you sound a bit haughty and arrogant, we are all friends here. no need to be rude  Wink secondly,  who said anything about "give for free the hard-earned money"? equal distribution does not mean expropriate and redistribute. it means redestribute on market base principals. reflow from the oceans to the local seas, ponds, puddles and cups. how to do it? i don't know. is it possible? i don't know. will it make the world a better place? i don't know. will it kill bitcoin or immortalize forever? i don't know.
the point is that people's money has to be people's money/

You are not the first coming with this ideas and it's rather frustrating to see them pop up over and over again.
Or maybe you didn't know how to express yourself and convince me. If it "does not mean expropriate and redistribute", then how could you (or the entity redistributing) acquire all those coins, from which some are private property and some are not even mined (and the miners will obviously won't mine them for free)?

how to do it? i don't know. is it possible? i don't know. will it make the world a better place? i don't know. will it kill bitcoin or immortalize forever? i don't know.

This is the part I like. It's the part you no longer sound like you want to teach us how to do it, instead you become open for discussion.
I'll answer, from my point of view:
* how to do it: for Bitcoin you cannot. Only somebody willing to give his own Bitcoin would be able to do that and it'll be with a small fraction of all Bitcoin. That's why I said in a later post to make a new coin for it. You'll have to premine it and send it.
One problem is that nobody will waste electricity for free to send your transactions, since you don't plan to pay them and you may not even have coins for paying them.
Another problem is that if you give it to everybody, it doesn't make it valuable. What's the difference from giving everybody air, water or some sand? Not much...

* is it possible: with a new coin or token, if you also pay the miners (or do some centralized approach) it is possible, but completely useless, because it will bear no value and people will not care about it (and probably won't redeem it)

* will it kill bitcoin or immortalize forever: if it would be possible for Bitcoin it will probably ruin its price.

* will it make the world a better place: nope, sorry. People will either waste the free money, either not hear/care about it or have no means to access it. And if I'm wrong and people will access it, the more access it, the lower its price will go, since most will sell asap for more palpable fiat or food, (or drink), and in a year it will be an old fun story, nothing more.

As you see, I try to give scenarios, not related between each other because the exact thing you "proposed" cannot be done.
Clearer now?

PS. Also the representation of your math is wrong. If you divide Bitcoin to people you obtain Bitcoin. So you'll have to either write Bitcoin as measure unit, either multiply with 10^8 to obtain satoshis.

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May 10, 2021, 12:30:42 PM
 #14

For sure the Bitcoin cannot make it for everybody. Bitcoin supply is limited while human is unlimited. I mean human can make new one once there are pregnant lady. Every pregnant is potential to add another person on Earth which additional number the the total population of human. While Bitcoin is limited cannot make new coin that what it is now.

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May 10, 2021, 12:49:46 PM
 #15

Nobody is willing to give their bitcoin for free. Will you give your bitcoin to a stranger? And I can ensure that even when your friends ask you for free bitcoin, you will never give it to them unless they ask for a loan.

Anyway, your calculation is awesome. And by 2050, $1,000,000 will not be the highest price of bitcoin. I guess it will be around $100,000,000,000. The world is heading toward a new era where technology is the main influencer, including bitcoin and the blockchain. So, right now it is a good time to think about bitcoin and how to implement this currency in to your life


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jostorres
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May 10, 2021, 01:03:43 PM
 #16

even in the most extreme case equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on earth is quite resanable and 1* ten to the sixth power USD per BTC looks alright. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/
Why equal distribution to happen? It is not about just most extreme case, but it seems as unlikely to happen case. Because, I am not seeing any possibilities for all world population to adopt bitcoins at any point before the year of 2100 (in best case and it may take another century of time in worst case scenario).

Moreover, bitcoin is another electronic money and all electronic money are infinitely divisible. It means we are having right now 8 decimals for one bitcoin which can be altered to 10 digits or 25 digits or 100 digits if required.

So, we can cope up with any level of population and its adoptions along with 21 million units of bitcoins itself.

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May 10, 2021, 01:19:26 PM
 #17

There has not been a consensus in the world on a currency, and it will not happen.
Many people in the world do not have access to the Internet and about 30% have electricity.
The use of millions of people for digital currencies will weaken the network, it is difficult to maintain the decentralization with millions of transactions in the network.
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May 10, 2021, 01:20:34 PM
 #18

As you see, I try to give scenarios, not related between each other
nice one! loud and clear.
just one questions poped up in mind reading your reply
> what happend to bitcoin when the last block is mined? how the network will be supported and transactions carried on if miners won't recive any reward anymore?

now back to business.
i wasn't talking about free money/airdrop. i was talking more about redistibuting by "voluntarily forcing" of big holders. those holding huge amounts will not benefit from it or even lose value if they hold huge amounts and not spending/selling it. how it can be possible done i can't even imagin in my wildest imagination. but it will make bitcoin the mean of payment and not of the mean of investment. this most likely will bring the price significantly down but will give bitcoinless chaps opportunities to acquire bitcoins and use them for buying/selling goods and services. and so on > redestribution and as a result equality more or less: 0.00178350 btc / 178350 sat. (Wink) per person in the 9,7 bln people world.
this amount can be a golden standart - an average living wage for a common citizen of the world
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May 10, 2021, 01:44:55 PM
 #19

> what happend to bitcoin when the last block is mined? how the network will be supported and transactions carried on if miners won't recive any reward anymore?

Sooo often is this asked, you cannot imagine. You should use search, really.
After many years, when there will no longer block reward, miners will still receive the transaction fees (which nowadays can go pretty easily to over 0.5BTC/block). Last block came with 1.09BTC in fees.

i was talking more about redistibuting by "voluntarily forcing" of big holders. those holding huge amounts will not benefit from it or even lose value if they hold huge amounts and not spending/selling it.

Maybe you are not aware, but the biggest holders are exchanges' cold wallets. And this means that if you keep money on an exchange you'll pay for that money from your own pocket.
Also, if this was not stated when people have deposited their money into their wallets, then it's basically stealing.

how it can be possible done i can't even imagin in my wildest imagination.

I know a token on ETH network which has a smart contract that makes you pay a tiny amount for the coins you hold in your wallet. So it can be done, but you need a new coin/token for that.

but it will make bitcoin the mean of payment and not of the mean of investment.

Nope, it won't. You imagine the somebody who doesn't have money for food will buy a smartphone, connect to the internet, get 121$ and then pays 5-10$ in fees to spend it? And then use it for every day currency?
The barrier before using it as currency is its transaction speed and costs, which will be fixed by LN at some point.
If you'd redistribute Bitcoin, you'll make it worthless. Also, as discussed, if you'd do this, you'll get money from those actually work for that money - in a way or another - and give it to those who didn't. Even those who were using Bitcoin will run away from it. You'd make more problems than you'd fix.

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May 10, 2021, 01:57:01 PM
 #20

> what happend to bitcoin when the last block is mined? how the network will be supported and transactions carried on if miners won't recive any reward anymore?

No offense, you ask a question that has been answered hundreds of times in this forum alone - in short, in about 100 years (2140) the last block will be mined - but there will still be transaction fees - and if Bitcoin exists then, and be used by several billion people ...

What will happen after all bitcoin are mined

so. even in the most extreme case equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on earth is quite resanable and 1* ten to the sixth power USD per BTC looks alright. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is for me personally an alternative, not some ultimate replacement for fiat that has to happen anytime in the future. Therefore, it is not realistic to expect that Bitcoin will be used as you imagine, even now most of those who own it see it as a store of value - and not as a currency. Anyone who thinks the world's biggest powers will ever agree to replace their precious fiat that they control 100% with a decentralized currency with no control lives in a big lie. In addition, 45% of the world's population does not have access to the Internet today, they are completely out of any distribution.

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