Arguing that a coin with a very low energy usage or "efficient", cannot exist

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Just google a search using "power usage of internet" and you will find that mining uses just a fraction of what other things - mainly streaming services - use. At one time not so many years ago using the same FUD data it was said that streaming would use all available power. Well it hasn't. Mining energy usage is just the latest media clickbait to garner eyeballs.

[Silberman]

I'd be curious to know how much pollution and energy consumption all financial institutions and the worldwide money printing machines create. I'm quite sure they're much, much higher than the one that comes from BTC mining, but we cannot pretend that there aren't other systems that are more energy-efficient than Bitcoin's.. although at the expense of other stuff such as security, which is perhaps more important than energy consumption is! Proof-of-Stake is an option but it's in more of a testing ground right now. Bitcoin is more solid than ever before and it's been 13 years since its inception. If PoS works well enough, Bitcoin will move to it. It's not like we want to pollute the air and use as much energy as possible. It's just that we want security as well, not just an eco-friendly environment..

Taking into account that the main current usage of bitcoin is as a store of value then securing the network is of the utmost importance, moving to another way to secure the network not only will deny miners from a source of revenue and will make them lose their investment but it will also put the network at risk, people are complaining about the energy consumption of bitcoin simply because they think bitcoin is optional while fiat currencies are not, once they face a financial crisis like what we have never seen before I am sure they will change their tune relatively quickly.

[Gamerholic]

When you need to create a new negative news background, you should just start telling something like that. And it doesn't matter that it is illogical and defies logic - just tell millions of people about it and they will tell their friends, and they, in turn, will tell theirs - and the job is done. We observed this week how the markets are being manipulated and the cryptocurrency market, unfortunately, is no exception. I would very much like everyone to remember this lesson for a long time and in the future we would rely on some objective information and not this "news".

[Twentyonepaylots]

Since negativity will always have a stronger grip in the mind than the positive side of things, news will never have no negative headlines in it. This happened with crypto where they do their best to find a rough edge that they can capitalize on and exhibit to those who aren't aware of what cryptocurrencies are, to of course put the industry in a bad light. It's up to the viewers if they will fall easily to this trap or if they are to conduct their own research.

[TangentC]

Problem is Bitcoiners see any energy waste issue pointed out to them as a flaw in Bitcoin, and that they refuse to accept.
The energy waste issue is not an attack on bitcoin, because at  any time since 2013, they could have begun the transition to Proof of Stake, and have refused due to some cultist belief that is totally inaccurate.

Advantages to switching Bitcoin to PoS are the following
(...)

And yet, in the same breath, you completely fail to acknowledge a single downside, flaw or compromise to PoS?  Snake Oil Salesman much?  It's not all rainbows and sunshine, so stop pretending otherwise.

It's a completely different security model, different type of trust level and different alignment of economic incentives.  It's unwise to change the foundations of a robust and stable structure at a whim like that.  If PoS really was better, the market would have noticed by now.  Have you considered that maybe you're not in a position to insult our collective intelligence and act like just about everyone in this multi billion dollar industry is some sort of mindless drone?  Seriously, who the hell do you think you are?

I suggest you look at ethereum #2 on CMK , and cardano #4 on CMK,
Ethereum is on a track to convert to PoS , and Cardano is already fully PoS.
So it appears the markets have started to notice, and no one is worried about their security structure, so maybe join us in 2021 ,
where the PoS coins have been used since 2013 without any of the misplaced fears propagated by PoW supporters coming to fruition.

PoS is one solution, don't want PoS,
then you need to come up with something else, before most politicians ban mining to protect their citizens.
Claiming their are no problems with bitcoin's energy waste won't be looked on as a solution.

Answer the following
1. how do you plan to stop the increased banning of btc miners by cities and countries?
2. how will you compensate the poor for their increased energy prices , when they are competing with rich btc miners?
3. how will you protect the poor with respiratory problems that suffer from increased air pollution from the extra coal burned?
4. how can you make bitcoin close to carbon neutral before 2050.

If you can solve the above 4 problems, then no one will care if Bitcoin stays PoW,
but if you can't, well then , the trainwreck of an energy waste reckoning is coming.  
So what say you?  

[stompix]

Answer the following
1. how do you plan to stop the increased banning of btc miners by cities and countries?

Name the increasing number of countries that have banned bitcoin mining

2. how will you compensate the poor for their increased energy prices , when they are competing with rich btc miners?

If energy prices go up it's fairly obvious that bitcoins' energy consumption will go down.
Use logic, if one kwh would be 1$, even assuming no other costs no nothing and only the most efficient gear the hash rate would drop to one third in an instant.
It's not the poor persons who would be affected by an increase of 10% in something that is less than 10% of their monthly expenses, but a few miners for who such an increase would mean shutting down.

3. how will you protect the poor with respiratory problems that suffer from increased air pollution from the extra coal burned?

Just how we are protecting them from all the traffic in the cities, all the coal burned for air conditioning, and watching pornhub.
 

4. how can you make bitcoin close to carbon neutral before 2050.

Carbon neutral is a bullshit expression and anyone who has done at least 1 year of chemistry knows that. Just because you plant one thousand trees like some are claims is doing, doesn't make you carbon neutral, when those trees die the entire carbon that has been sequestered is released back in the atmosphere, goodbye neutrality. Using only solar panels? How are those made? How much they last? How many components are rendered obsolete in all datacenters every year and thrown away? There is no such thing as carbon-neutral activity in human society.

So what say you?  

PoS is a Piece of S#$%

[TangentC]

Answer the following
1. how do you plan to stop the increased banning of btc miners by cities and countries?

Name the increasing number of countries that have banned bitcoin mining

CHINA & NEW YORK

2. how will you compensate the poor for their increased energy prices , when they are competing with rich btc miners?

If energy prices go up it's fairly obvious that bitcoins' energy consumption will go down.
Use logic, if one kwh would be 1$, even assuming no other costs no nothing and only the most efficient gear the hash rate would drop to one third in an instant.
It's not the poor persons who would be affected by an increase of 10% in something that is less than 10% of their monthly expenses, but a few miners for who such an increase would mean shutting down.

Then Explain why Bitcoin Energy Waste has continued to Grow since creation.

3. how will you protect the poor with respiratory problems that suffer from increased air pollution from the extra coal burned?

Just how we are protecting them from all the traffic in the cities, all the coal burned for air conditioning, and watching pornhub.

Air conditioners efficiency has increased, ie: Heat Pumps, so less energy used
Bitcoin PoW has no plans to decrease energy usuage, only gobble up more.
 

4. how can you make bitcoin close to carbon neutral before 2050.

Carbon neutral is a bullshit expression and anyone who has done at least 1 year of chemistry knows that. Just because you plant one thousand trees like some are claims is doing, doesn't make you carbon neutral, when those trees die the entire carbon that has been sequestered is released back in the atmosphere, goodbye neutrality. Using only solar panels? How are those made? How much they last? How many components are rendered obsolete in all datacenters every year and thrown away? There is no such thing as carbon-neutral activity in human society.

That is one of the main arguments in favor of banning PoW mining,
so how will you convince the politicians that they are wrong.
So the banning of mining does not continue.

So what say you?  

PoS is a Piece of S#$%

PoW , Proof of Waste is becoming a PR and environmental problem, and so far none of the bitcoiners have offered a solution.
And the excuses made to why energy waste is not a problem for bitcoin, has made no inroads with anyone.


FYI:
One of the 1st places to ban bitcoin mining
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/16/17128678/plattsburgh-new-york-ban-cryptocurrency-mining

Plattsburgh mayor Colin Read told Motherboard that the city has the cheapest rates of electricity in the world. Residents pay about 4.5 cents per kilowatt-hour, compared to 10 cents the rest of the country pays on average. Plattsburgh also has an incentive for industrial enterprises, which only pay 2 cents per kilowatt-hour. This has led cryptocurrency miners to use the city as a base for their operations because their profits rely on cheap electricity, and mining takes up an astronomical amount of energy. Motherboard notes that Coinmint operates the biggest Bitcoin mining operation in Plattsburgh, and it used about 10 percent of the city’s total power budget in January and February.

Mayor Read proposed the moratorium after residents complained about the jump in their power bills earlier this month. “I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints that electric bills have gone up by $100 or $200,” Read told Motherboard. “You can understand why people are upset.” Plattsburgh has an allotment of 104 megawatt-hours of electricity per month. When it went over this allotment in January, the city had to buy more expensive electricity from the open market leading to the price rises. The mayor’s office states the new law is to also protect Plattsburgh’s natural, historic, cultural, and electrical resources as well as the health and well-being of its residents.

BTC Energy waste is a real problem, and ignoring it , won't make it go away.

[stompix]

~

Got triggered? WHY THE SHOUTING IN CAPS AND RED?

1) China has not banned mining as you can easily see from the current hashrate, and last time I checked New York wasn't a country.
2) What waste?
3) Bad analogy, cars have become 10 times more efficient that doesn't mean world fuel consumption has gone down.
4) Well, at least we're not arguing on this one?
 

FYI:
One of the 1st places to ban bitcoin mining
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/16/17128678/plattsburgh-new-york-ban-cryptocurrency-mining

FYI:
MAR 5, 2019
Plattsburgh Ends Cryptocurrency Moratorium

Do your research better next time.

[joehal__]

I understand that to mint/mine POS coins, you are not looking at investing $5000 in energy so you can sell the product with $10 000, but instead you need to invest in owning and staking a certain amount of coins so you can get a certain amount of returns. What percent of returns vs the investment percent, it seems it's not known. But the concept is clear so far.
  But how do you get the initial coins ? The first batch ?

Because in the case of POW coins even the very first coins you obtain by paying for the energy.
Is the first POS batch of coins generated "for free" or something like that ?

[androyster]

The last time I checked it took A LOT of energy to mine precious metals.  Moreover how many banks, ATMs, machines etc operate to move fiat?  Massive amounts of "energy" are needed to process and hold fiat currency.

The only reason these fools are picking on bitcoin is that they don't understand it or simply hate it because they don't have any.

[Silberman]

The last time I checked it took A LOT of energy to mine precious metals.  Moreover how many banks, ATMs, machines etc operate to move fiat?  Massive amounts of "energy" are needed to process and hold fiat currency.

The only reason these fools are picking on bitcoin is that they don't understand it or simply hate it because they don't have any.

When you know your opponents are not arguing in good faith then there is no point in engaging with them, if this was caused because of ignorance then we could explain to them why they are wrong but when we know they are exaggerating how much energy the miners are using, when they are misrepresenting the sources which in most cases are green sources of energy and when they try to make it seem as if the system in place is more efficient when it is not, you know there is no point in engaging with them at all.

[TangentC]

~

Got triggered? WHY THE SHOUTING IN CAPS AND RED?

1) China has not banned mining as you can easily see from the current hashrate, and last time I checked New York wasn't a country.
2) What waste?
3) Bad analogy, cars have become 10 times more efficient that doesn't mean world fuel consumption has gone down.
4) Well, at least we're not arguing on this one?
 

FYI:
One of the 1st places to ban bitcoin mining
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/16/17128678/plattsburgh-new-york-ban-cryptocurrency-mining

FYI:
MAR 5, 2019
Plattsburgh Ends Cryptocurrency Moratorium

Do your research better next time.

Red & caps was because I did not feel like separating your quotes.

I get it , you're so smart, the news must all be wrong about the bans in sections of China & New York.

Note, we were talking about ACs not cars, but hey you're so smart.

In fact , you're so smart, their is really no point in us conversing,
because your smart mind is closed to the problems that PoW is going to cause, and the last thing I care to do is to change your mind.  
Keep your PoW is great mindset.

Have a nice day.  

[kryptqnick]

If it's a PoW blockchain cryptocurrency, I think you're right that it's impossible to make it sustainable in a way Musk imagines. However, I think there can be a few workarounds that could help with the ecological impact:
1. Legislation that boosts shifting from coal to renewable energy (not just for BTC, but for any electricity usage).
2. Using more coins and dividing the load between them. I'm not sure if this can really help, but perhaps if people used Bitcoin a little less and Ethereum, Litecoin, Doge and other coins a little more, there wouldn't be such a high demand for mining Bitcoin specifically. However, the demand will increase for other coins, so maybe it doesn't make a difference.
3. Using DAG coins like IOTA that solve the scalability issue in the long run.

[joehal__]

I found another hole in the whole "let's mine cryptocoins using almost no energy" logic.

If that is a viable alternative, how come miners don't all shift to those magic coins which cost almost zero energy to produce but which you can sell with tons of dollars profit ? Or at least shift a large percent of their facilities to that.
I mean miners are focused on profit right ? They are not altruistic, concerned only with the environment.

If they don't do that, it means it's an economic impossibility, like a perpetuum mobile, as the title of this thread.

[TangentC]

I found another hole in the whole "let's mine cryptocoins using almost no energy" logic.

If that is a viable alternative, how come miners don't all shift to those magic coins which cost almost zero energy to produce but which you can sell with tons of dollars profit ? Or at least shift a large percent of their facilities to that.
I mean miners are focused on profit right ? They are not altruistic, concerned only with the environment.

Who says they aren't, according to your thought process, just the idea of moving to Proof of Stake should collapse a coin price.
So how do you reconcile that ethereum that is moving to PoS is in the #2 position
and many market analyst predict that ethereum will become #1 coin on CMK.
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/buying-stocks/articles/why-ethereum-is-surging-and-could-surpass-bitcoin/

Why Ethereum Is Surging -- and Could Surpass Bitcoin

Cardano currently a Pure active PoS coins is in the #5 position on CMK, according to you , that can't happen.
Litecoin and Bitcoin Cash pure PoW coins have fallen outside the top 10 coins.

Energy efficiency matters, and no matter how much bictoiners want to deny it, the marketplace have begun showing it.
But I am guessing for the majority of bitcoin energy waste deniers, it won't really sink in ,
until ethereum or cardano are sitting at the #1 position on CMK.  


FYI:
PoS does use energy,
but it only requires a portion of the energy used by a node, which can easily be all renewable since it has such little requirements.
While Bitcoin PoW is using the energy resources of almost a midsize country, and what does all that increase energy get you,
nothing but increased environment damage and larger energy bills for people on the same grids.
*Notice as Bitcoin Energy waste increases there is no increase in onchain transaction performance.*
Bitcoin onchaiin PoW~ 7 transactions per second.
Ethereum onchain   ~20 Transactions per second
Cardano pure PoS  ~257 Transactions per second

[joehal__]

As far as I know, ethereum is moving to POS for a few years already and they are still not there for some strange reason.

Cardano is another example, and I already conceded of deviations from the "normal" in the shape of XRP, or ripple coin.
So I think the best counter-argument would be ripple, because as far as I know XRP doesn't use POW or POS, and they still have value, at some point they were among the largest coins. But at the same time many people don't trust it, think they are a "scam", and I think XRP is almost like a product sold by a brand, like coca cola. People would buy a Coke for $2 even if the manufacturing would cost 10 cents.

Somehow things are different when the product is a "brand name". Maybe it's the same with Cardano, maybe they managed to make a name for themselves, almost like a brand, with clever marketing, or with good arguments and good innovations.

EDIT: and a few posts earlier we established that in fact POS also requires some type of investing, in the form that you are required to hold coins. I'm not sure what implications does this have on the whole economic factor, but I'm sure it has some implications and there's also a reason most miners don't move en masse to POS alt coins mining.

[TangentC]

As far as I know, ethereum is moving to POS for a few years already and they are still not there for some strange reason.

Cardano is another example, and I already conceded of deviations from the "normal" in the shape of XRP, or ripple coin.
So I think the best counter-argument would be ripple, because as far as I know XRP doesn't use POW or POS, and they still have value, at some point they were among the largest coins. But at the same time many people don't trust it, think they are a "scam", and I think XRP is almost like a product sold by a brand, like coca cola. People would buy a Coke for $2 even if the manufacturing would cost 10 cents.

Somehow things are different when the product is a "brand name". Maybe it's the same with Cardano, maybe they managed to make a name for themselves, almost like a brand, with clever marketing, or with good arguments and good innovations.

Here something for you to think on.
On CMK positions.

1. Bitcoin     PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether ,   Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP ,       Consensus

Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.  

[20kevin20]

Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.  

Yeah, because it's like those seeking privacy and using dumb phones instead of smartphones. For them, it's the privacy that matters more than any other function today's smartphones have, so they trade new tech for old, more privacy-offering phones instead.

I honestly don't care about the energy that much. There are so many other activities governments do that pollute the environment. This definitely isn't a reason to block the world's fairest currency's supply from being created.

[TangentC]

I honestly don't care about the energy that much. There are so many other activities governments do that pollute the environment. This definitely isn't a reason to block the world's fairest currency's supply from being created.

The people that struggle to pay increased electricity rates and their kids breathe in more polluted air because of bitcoin PoW miners have a different opinion than yours.   

[DooMAD]

Here something for you to think on.
On CMK positions.

1. Bitcoin     PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether ,   Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP ,       Consensus

Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters. 

The agenda is more than a little transparent here.  You only pretend to care about energy efficiency and the environmental impact of PoW because you peddle a PoS shitcoin.  You want to shout from the rooftops, "hey, look at these (currently) successful projects and mine should also be successful by proxy for some reason".  Except it doesn't work like that. 

kids breathe in more polluted air

Spare us the 'Helen Lovejoy' routine.  Say, if they ever invented aircraft that ran on PoS, then you could pretend to care about the environmental impact of those too. 

Isn't it shameful how wasteful it is to burn jet fuel.  Won't somebody please think of the children?