how to transfer Ledger BTC to a new ledger wallet (anonymously)

[DrBitcoin]

My friend has a Ledger wallet, and she wants to transfer the Bitcoin from a ledger wallet to a different ledger wallet (without a record of the transaction).

Is this possible in a SAFE way?

Thanks.

[1713991745]

1713991745

[20kevin20]

When your friend received her first Ledger, she wrote down a seed somewhere. Use that on the second Ledger, and there will be no trace. You cannot transfer the Bitcoins from one to another without a transaction, but you can use the same seed multiple times so you can access the same coins from two separate devices/HWs.

[DrBitcoin]

When your friend received her first Ledger, she wrote down a seed somewhere. Use that on the second Ledger, and there will be no trace. You cannot transfer the Bitcoins from one to another without a transaction, but you can use the same seed multiple times so you can access the same coins from two separate devices/HWs.

Wait. Using the same seed means the private keys are on the new ledger. But under all new public keys?

The goal is to send the coins from ledger A to ledger B, without being able to trace them.

[hosseinimr93]

Wait. Using the same seed means the private keys are on the new ledger. But under all new public keys?

You will have same private keys, same public keys and same addresses in the new ledger.
By importing the seed into the new ledger, you will have access to the fund you had in the old device.

Note that every private key can generate only one public key. It's not possible to have different public keys with a single private key.

[DrBitcoin]

Wait. Using the same seed means the private keys are on the new ledger. But under all new public keys?

You will have same private keys, same public keys and same addresses in the new ledger.
By importing the seed into the new ledger, you will have access to the fund you had in the old device.

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

[BitMaxz]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

They mean the only way to transfer BTC without a transaction record on the Mempool is by sending the seed backup to your friend which is not advisable.

Anyway, the only solution to this is by using a mixer to cut the traces. Sample one of the mixer under my signature.

[odolvlobo]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

Then you must send the coins from one wallet to an address in the other wallet. That is the only way to move them and there must be a record of the transaction.

Now, there are different ways to achieve varying levels of security and secrecy, and you must be more specific in describing your goals.

[Darker45]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

Yes, please, because if point A to point B to you means this:

...from a ledger wallet to a different ledger wallet...

...from ledger A to ledger B...

then using your seed is enough. However, strictly speaking, you are not actually sending your coins from Ledger A to Ledger B. Your coins are not in your Ledger device, after all.

But if you aren't clear enough and actually meant that you really want to move your coins, then I guess you cannot have a Bitcoin transaction without a single trace left even if you use a tumbler. After all, your first step would be to send the coins from your wallet to a tumbler's address. Bitcoin is using a public ledger. All transactions are available to the public.

[bitmover]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

To do that, the only way is to use a mixer.

You will send from point A to D, C, J, W, I, L, M, etc etc and your friend will receive a coin from someone else (like F to B). This is the best way.

This image ilustrastes how it works:


You can read more about mixers here
https://bitcoin.org/en/protect-your-privacy

Limitations of mixing services
Some online services called mixing services offer to mix traceability between users by receiving and sending back the same amount using independent Bitcoin addresses. It is important to note that the legality of using such services might vary and be subjected to different rules in each jurisdiction. Such services also require you to trust the individuals running them not to lose or steal your funds and not to keep a log of your requests. Even though mixing services can break traceability for small amounts, it becomes increasingly difficult to do the same for larger transactions.

About this subject, there a lot of mixers in the market. They are not trustless, you need to trust them. Personally, I would seek for a mixer with a big community support, such as chipmixer (a lot of people in this forum use it without any problem).

They mean the only way to transfer BTC without a transaction record on the Mempool is by sending the seed backup to your friend which is not advisable.

This is an interesting solution. The problem is that your friend would need to trust you, as you would still have the private keys. He would need to transfer it to a new wallet to make it trustless.. which is basically sending from A to B.

[dkbit98]

My friend has a Ledger wallet, and she wants to transfer the Bitcoin from a ledger wallet to a different ledger wallet (without a record of the transaction).

Is this possible in a SAFE way?

This is possible only if you import your seed words from first ledger device to second ledger device, there will be no transaction and you will have full control on both devices.
Keep in mind that coins are always on blockchain and not actually on hardware devices but importing seed words on multiple devices you can lose all your coins, and you are reducing your security,
so do this only if you are the owner of both devices.
All transactions for coins like Bitcoin are public and everyone can see them, but using coinjoins with Wasabi wallet or bitcoin mixers like Chipmixer will increase your privacy a lot, but there will still be some transaction history for receiving address.

[Pmalek]

This is an interesting solution. The problem is that your friend would need to trust you, as you would still have the private keys.

Not necessarily. DrBitcoin might have just started this thread in the name of his friend because he has an account on Bitcointalk. It doesn't have to mean he has access to the recovery phrase of his friend.

@DrBitcoin
Does your friend have reasons to believe that her original seed (the one in Ledger A) is compromised in any way? Has it ever been entered in a hot wallet, stored digitally, or shared over email, cloud, or similar online services? Has anyone seen it or had physical access to it that he/she was not supposed to have?

If none of that has happened, restoring your wallet via the recovery phrase solves that problem your friend has. She will have access to the same coins on Ledger B without making any transactions. After that she can reset Ledger A to factory settings and do whatever she wants with it. Any other solution will create an on-chain transaction.

[bob123]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

You are still not clear.
And this most likely comes from the fact that you 1) don't know how bitcoin works and 2) might be choosing the wrong words to describe your goal.

The biggest issue you give us is "from point A to point B". What is a "point"?
A physical location or a person, an identity? This matters a lot.

So.. if you want a proper and on-point answer, start understanding how bitcoin works.. then ask a precise question.

[HCP]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

The lack of definition of what Point A and Point B are, seems to be causing some issues...

If Point A and Point B are both owned by the same person, then restoring the seed on the Point B device is possible... however the coins will still be associated with the same addresses/public keys. All you are doing in this instance is "cloning" Ledger1 onto Ledger2.

If Point A and Point B are owned by different people, then restoring the seed on the Point B device is NOT recommended. You're effectively handing your entire wallet to the other party!


If the goal is to actually get coins from one particular wallet (owned by person 1) to another wallet (owned by person 2)... note that it doesn't matter if these are software wallets, hardware wallets etc... then you have no option but to create an on-chain transaction... which leaves a trace. It has to, because Bitcoin operates on a public ledger.

So, you will need to obfuscate the transaction in some manner. You choices for this are:

1. A bitcoin tumbler or mixer
2. Converting coins to a "privacy coin" and sending that (eg. Monero)
3. Using Coinjoin

[DireWolfM14]

Perhaps I was not clear. The goal is to get the coins from point A to Point B without a trace. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?? Lol.

If your friend's goal is privacy (from an ex or something along those lines,) she can merely send the funds to an exchange that allows HD addresses, like Coinbase.  Then she can reset her Ledger with a new seed (optional) and send the funds back.  They'll be nearly impossible to trace without a warrant. 

If she needs more privacy than that, then a mixer might be a good choice.  See this post by theymos that has some excellent advice:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5146241.0

[Charles-Tim]

If your friend's goal is privacy (from an ex or something along those lines,) she can merely send the funds to an exchange that allows HD addresses, like Coinbase.  Then she can reset her Ledger with a new seed (optional) and send the funds back.  They'll be nearly impossible to trace without a warrant. 

Because of how exchanges are, it won't be advisable, although I understood that exchanges can act like a mixer but they are centralized, and controlled by governmental policies. People's dependent on exchanges makes the government to be controlling people to the extent they are trying to even want to have laws that can make them track individual noncustododial wallets people (citizens) are using. Also the exchange will know the address the Bitcoin is sent to, and some exchanges like to freeze users funds is another reason people should be discouraged from using exchanges for this purpose. The reasons I can not advice anyone to use an exchange for privacy purposes, using exchanges will likely result to privacy invasion and must not be included while thinking of privacy.

The best options are to use CoinJoin, like Wasabi wallet do CoinJoin, or making use of mixers, or converting the Bitcoin first to Monero first and converting it back to Bitcoin in a decentralized way.

[20kevin20]

Wait. Using the same seed means the private keys are on the new ledger. But under all new public keys?

The goal is to send the coins from ledger A to ledger B, without being able to trace them.

You can't send coins from ledger A to B without a public transaction record. You either move the seed to another ledger or you move the coins directly through a transaction. Mix the coins or CoinJoin them and then send them to ledger B. This way, your trace is lost.

There is literally no other way to move coins. You either use the same seed or you move them to another address.