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Author Topic: Lightning Network Observer  (Read 12868 times)
franky1
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November 28, 2022, 03:30:29 AM
Last edit: November 28, 2022, 04:50:28 AM by franky1
 #361

you are missing the complete point

much like many thought that LN was soo utopia that there was no way to fractional reserve because all channels had locked and confirmed value.....
.....
until thor turbo proved it was possible and people were getting inbound Msats not backed by a confirmed bitcoin 'funding lock' utxo

when you realise that there is also no network consensus and that msats are not 1:1 rated with sats.. where instead that 1:1000 ratio is not guaranteed either and can be messed with too

where when compiled, and a service tells people to use their app..
EG a service of 1m users al using that services LN app on their phone

people wont know of the rate change while using LN.. they see the msats and dilly dally happily moving msats in onion payments
.until.. they broadcast the commitment and see onchain that they are getting not as much as promised..

then you will see

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 28, 2022, 05:41:20 AM
Last edit: November 28, 2022, 06:47:11 AM by AGD
 #362

you are missing the complete point

much like many thought that LN was soo utopia that there was no way to fractional reserve because all channels had locked and confirmed value.....
.....
until thor turbo proved it was possible and people were getting inbound Msats not backed by a confirmed bitcoin 'funding lock' utxo

when you realise that there is also no network consensus and that msats are not 1:1 rated with sats.. where instead that 1:1000 ratio is not guaranteed either and can be messed with too

where when compiled, and a service tells people to use their app..
EG a service of 1m users al using that services LN app on their phone

people wont know of the rate change while using LN.. they see the msats and dilly dally happily moving msats in onion payments
.until.. they broadcast the commitment and see onchain that they are getting not as much as promised..

then you will see

When a channel is opened, the initiator of the channel open has to pay the onchain fee. Same with closing. So he pays a minimum of 1sat/vb two times, which is a minimum fee of about 400 Satoshis plus at max of 2 Satoshis lost due to rounding down. Noone cares about this, Franky. Channels don`t have to be closed after every payment, but they can (and often they do) stay open for years.
Thor Turbo is just a Bitrefill implementation, that speeds up channel opening. Nothing to see here. All exchanges are implementing their own software. Most of the trading on exchanges is happening under the hood and is not shown on the blockchain. They can do whatever they want with your money.

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November 28, 2022, 12:56:49 PM
 #363

you say about onchain fee's.   (not part of the conversation)

you talk about how an implementation used by nothing is.. and the you use sweep under the carpet blank statements..

thor turbo you say "speeds up" yea.. by ignoring a bolt rule to only start a channel once a tx is confirmed. by ignoring that they can give msats to users with no confirm utxo..

funny how you want to play it down as a feature and not something people should be risk aware of..

as for you saying users dont need to settle up every payment.. well thats the issue its not about broadcasting payment.. its about that while they dont need to broadcast with every ln onion payment to settle.. they are left longer not knowing what the state/commitment behind the GUI is actually promising. all they see is a msat balance in GUI which can mean nothing. much like thor turbo

with all the crap about stable coins de-pegging their reserves or lack of reserves (no funding locked coin) people should be aware of other networks that have week structure to ensure security. but you wanna sweep it under the rug..

shameful

havnt you listened to the news lately..
services and networks that cant prove reserves,
stable coins de-pegging to new low rates of conversion to base asset value
methods to steal/hack funds from counterparties/sister companies

but hey you will keep promoting the utopian dream that bitcoin is unfit for the masses and LN is bitcoin 2.0 right??

shame on you.

maybe one day you will become risk aware and then want other to be risk aware to protect their value rather then a trust system where they have to use emotional choices to either hope their channel partner wont screw them, or lose sleep watching them.
if you have to watch or trust middlemen or other people because your funds are at risk of being lost or spent while you are not watching them. that system is not a good system

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 28, 2022, 02:04:50 PM
 #364

you say about onchain fee's.   (not part of the conversation)

you talk about how an implementation used by nothing is.. and the you use sweep under the carpet blank statements..

thor turbo you say "speeds up" yea.. by ignoring a bolt rule to only start a channel once a tx is confirmed. by ignoring that they can give msats to users with no confirm utxo..

funny how you want to play it down as a feature and not something people should be risk aware of..

as for you saying users dont need to settle up every payment.. well thats the issue its not about broadcasting payment.. its about that while they dont need to broadcast with every ln onion payment to settle.. they are left longer not knowing what the state/commitment behind the GUI is actually promising. all they see is a msat balance in GUI which can mean nothing. much like thor turbo

with all the crap about stable coins de-pegging their reserves or lack of reserves (no funding locked coin) people should be aware of other networks that have week structure to ensure security. but you wanna sweep it under the rug..

shameful

havnt you listened to the news lately..
services and networks that cant prove reserves,
stable coins de-pegging to new low rates of conversion to base asset value
methods to steal/hack funds from counterparties/sister companies

but hey you will keep promoting the utopian dream that bitcoin is unfit for the masses and LN is bitcoin 2.0 right??

shame on you.

maybe one day you will become risk aware and then want other to be risk aware to protect their value rather then a trust system where they have to use emotional choices to either hope their channel partner wont screw them, or lose sleep watching them.
if you have to watch or trust middlemen or other people because your funds are at risk of being lost or spent while you are not watching them. that system is not a good system

Time to take your medication, Franky.

Bitcoin is not a bubble, it's the pin!
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November 28, 2022, 05:11:24 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), n0nce (1)
 #365

[...]
You do acknowledge that Turbo is decided after the consent between two nodes, right? Just because Alice opens a channel with Bob, and they choose to settle it unconfirmed (which is what makes a channel turbo), it doesn't affect Charlie somehow. If Alice wants to send money to Charlie, it's Bob who'll give him the money, who doesn't have a turbo channel with Charlie. If Alice screws with Bob, and double-spends her channel opening transaction, Charlie will have normally received the money she sent him; it's Bob who's left unpaid.

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n0nce
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November 29, 2022, 12:49:33 AM
 #366

you are missing the complete point
I'm not, we're speaking about the same thing.

people wont know of the rate change while using LN.. they see the msats and dilly dally happily moving msats in onion payments
.until.. they broadcast the commitment and see onchain that they are getting not as much as promised.. [emphasis mine]
then you will see
I acknowledged that you can indeed lose 1sat. So yes, you're wrong with the bolded sentence; they may get up to 1 satoshi less than the msat amount in their wallet.
Although, this is nothing new and nothing to worry about; 1sat is worth $0.00016USD or 0.016 cents.

they can give msats to users with no confirm utxo..
Yeah; users can get msats (or sats, whatever) Lightning balance before the opening transaction is confirmed. So if it's double-spent / revoked, that Lightning balance can't be settled / disappears. Easy solution: wait for one confirmation. This is not really a Lightning problem, but just like a merchant accepting 0conf. It's their choice, their risk.

For a complete trust-less experience, you should wait for the opening transaction to have three confirmations before using the channel and start making payments. Otherwise, your counterparty in the channel could make a double-spend attack on you by invalidating the opening transaction.

if you have to watch or trust middlemen or other people because your funds are at risk of being lost or spent while you are not watching them. that system is not a good system
Do you have an idea about an off-chain system which doesn't need to be 'watched' / online? That would be amazing.

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franky1
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November 29, 2022, 02:19:15 AM
 #367

you are missing the complete point
I'm not, we're speaking about the same thing.

people wont know of the rate change while using LN.. they see the msats and dilly dally happily moving msats in onion payments
.until.. they broadcast the commitment and see onchain that they are getting not as much as promised.. [emphasis mine]
then you will see
I acknowledged that you can indeed lose 1sat. So yes, you're wrong with the bolded sentence; they may get up to 1 satoshi less than the msat amount in their wallet.
Although, this is nothing new and nothing to worry about; 1sat is worth $0.00016USD or 0.016 cents.

converting a onion payment amount of 99,999msat
to 10sat is not a rounding error

its a full conversion at a 1000x rate
that 1000x rate is the part im on about not the idio roundong silly petty brush under carpet arguments you think that only happens in LN

Do you have an idea about an off-chain system which doesn't need to be 'watched' / online? That would be amazing.

yea. its called bitcoin

i dont need to be online all day to "watch" it for theft. heck it even comes in the form of paper wallet

when anyone wants to make a internet payment then yes go online. but the rest of the day-month-year, you dont need to stay online just to ensure a partner/middle man isnt trying to steal against you

its crap like LN that is the only system in cryptocurrency that so you need to be online to reduce the risk of someone stealing your funds.

. in bitcoin i can disapear for a decade and come back and know my finds are safe.. LN channel cant say the same

i dont think you LN folk realise that LN "tech" is actually the failed projects of cypherpunks 2000-2007.. it was then bitcoin and blockchains that solved a problem for smart contracts..
its not where smart contracts are solving a problem of bitcoin.

...
lets word it another way

if you locked 10cents on a stable coin
and it converted to 10,000millicents

would you say its 1:1
would you want to ensure that no walet breaks the 1:1000 rate


if you locked $10 on a stable coin
and it converted to 1,000,000millicents

would you say its 1:1
would you want to ensure that no wallet breaks the 1:1000 rate

i know you will just say "not our problem" if users use a wallet they were told to use by a service that gave them 10,000,000millicents inbound but had no lock to back the value. and when the use spends $10 of real money its his fault if after settled he only vets 1 penny back. its his loss

but when a service can have hundreds of users the lame mindset of blame the user not the service networks lack of security.. you end up revealing the network has lack of security to defend against malicious implementations and serives

bitcoin is simple if there is no utxo there is no tx payment. bitcoin doesnt work on promises that need to settle later to ensure you got paid

bitcoins doesnt need to to be online 24/8 to ensure your channel partner doesnt steal from you

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 29, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #368

converting a onion payment amount of 99,999msat
to 10sat is not a rounding error

its a full conversion at a 1000x rate
that 1000x rate is the part im on about not the idio roundong silly petty brush under carpet arguments you think that only happens in LN
That's not what is happening, though. 99,999msat are rounded down to 99sat if the channel state has to be settled on the blockchain (read: channel is closed). Just under 1sat gets lost. No 1000x rates or anything.

Do you have an idea about an off-chain system which doesn't need to be 'watched' / online? That would be amazing.
yea. its called bitcoin
i dont need to be online all day to "watch" it for theft. heck it even comes in the form of paper wallet
Nobody is arguing against Bitcoin. Lightning is an addition to Bitcoin trying to solve the scaling problem. I know that you don't think it exists, because technically, as of now, the blockchain is fast enough. Think of it as future-proofing and / or trying out techniques well before they may be actually needed to ensure Bitcoin's blockchain (that we all know and love) isn't clogged up and rendered unusable due to higher usage / higher number of active users.

i dont think you LN folk realise that LN "tech" is actually the failed projects of cypherpunks 2000-2007.. it was then bitcoin and blockchains that solved a problem for smart contracts..
Only Bitcoin and its blockchain enables a concept such as Lightning to work. In 2000-2007 that didn't exist, which is why any project aiming to do what LN does, would have failed.

I know you love the blockchain, and we do, too; without it, Lightning is unthinkable.

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franky1
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November 29, 2022, 02:40:32 AM
 #369

converting a onion payment amount of 99,999msat
to 10sat is not a rounding error

its a full conversion at a 1000x rate
that 1000x rate is the part im on about not the idio roundong silly petty brush under carpet arguments you think that only happens in LN
That's not what is happening, though. 99,999msat are rounded down to 99sat if the channel state has to be settled on the blockchain (read: channel is closed). Just under 1sat gets lost. No 1000x rates or anything.
rounding is not a /1000
also there is no hard rule that is consensus defined and locked to ensure converting is done at a 1000 rate

i am laughing that you call a change by a factor of 1000x "rounding"

ok you give me $1999.. and ill "round that down for you to $1.90
and give you back $1.90 and tell you its the same things just rounded

do you observe how going from near 10,000 down to 10 is not "rounding" its division.. and when that rate is not fixed by any hard rule that is unbreakable. its called pegging. and if you ever done any clothes drying in the back yard you would know pegs break. as many sidechains and some stable coins have learned.. and its a shame you have not learned this

Do you have an idea about an off-chain system which doesn't need to be 'watched' / online? That would be amazing.
yea. its called bitcoin
i dont need to be online all day to "watch" it for theft. heck it even comes in the form of paper wallet
Nobody is arguing against Bitcoin. Lightning is an addition to Bitcoin trying to solve the scaling problem.
scaling bitcoin is not "stop using bitcoin often and use another network"
as thats the same as saying drop bitcoin and use litecoin
if you are telling people to not use bitcoin your not helping bitcoin

i dont think you LN folk realise that LN "tech" is actually the failed projects of cypherpunks 2000-2007.. it was then bitcoin and blockchains that solved a problem for smart contracts..
Only Bitcoin and its blockchain enables a concept such as Lightning to work. In 2000-2007 that didn't exist, which is why any project aiming to do what LN does, would have failed.
smart contracts of 2party signing a payment is OLD tech

also LN can stop operate.. as proven by setting pup channels with no utxo backing..

and how other cryptos have LN

I know you love the blockchain, and we do, too; without it, Lightning is unthinkable.

i wont repeat myself. just look at my last paragraph of this post.

i do laugh that you still think LN is a sole feature of bitcoin and only compatible with bitcoin and relies on bitcoin to function..

i also laugh that you think telling users to not use bitcoin and then shout some FUD about why bitcoin is not fit for use, just to advertise LN as the solution to bitcoins unfitness.. very very shameful tactics


WBTC
LBTC
ln-mast

are not bitcoin

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 29, 2022, 10:29:11 AM
 #370

Although, this is nothing new and nothing to worry about; 1sat is worth $0.00016USD or 0.016 cents.
Not only that, but even if 1 sat becomes more valuable in the future, there's still on-chain transaction that needs to take place, which will cost more than 1 sat. I doubt this will ever be a serious concern for the node operator.

in bitcoin i can disapear for a decade and come back and know my finds are safe.. LN channel cant say the same
Then don't use it for that purpose, you shouldn't either way. Nobody is going to treat Lightning as a cold storage. The point is the exact opposite; to use it regularly for day-to-day transactions. But besides that, if you don't like Lightning, and you can't find reasoning in our arguments, then just stop getting involved in these discussions. We're perpetually proving you wrong, buddy.

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November 29, 2022, 02:59:07 PM
 #371

you are not proving me wrong you are evading the points with utopia. yo pretend there is nothing to see.. as if saying nothing to see = nothing wrong..
only the blind think the path ahead is clear .. until they hit something

as for the 'not used for cold store'

because its not a "cold" system its a "hot" stay online or risk losing..

however in that "hot" system you love.. you do want people to stay locked in with value for months and not settle up to real bitcoin..
so its not a cold "store".. its a hot "store".. with all the risks that come with it

so your utopia is about storing value long term.. just in a insecure method that can be stolen just for sleeping

and your first silly responce to nonce in your last post .. is again you BOTH only talking about the rounding of 999 msat. ignoring the point of the whole 1:1000 conversion rate

seems you have not even mentioned the 1:1000 and instead just evaded it to only wanna tak about rounding insignificances

seems if you cant tell the difference between rounding
1,000,000,999msat
=
1,000,000sat
where its still the 1:1000 rate jut rounding the excess

where as
1,000,000,900msat
=
10sat
by changing the 1:1000 rate which is not about "just rounding error"
because more then 0.900sats are lost


meaning the other guy or miners get 999,990 extra. by just editing a few lines of code that no one notices in a app update until months later when they finally settle up. because for the months before settling up they ware paying/displaying only msats that have no 'coin control' to ensure there is a guaranteed peg back to a promised value, leaving users thinking its a 1:1000 rate.. until its too late

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November 29, 2022, 03:47:51 PM
Last edit: November 29, 2022, 05:02:30 PM by cAPSLOCK
Merited by n0nce (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #372

So... I have Franky on ignore because in the past I feel like he has just been so much noise.  But obviously he has been getting some engagement recently and I see the quotes.  This is fine, of course.

But it's too bad.  Seems like a well meaning guy.  But he is not arguing his points in an open minded way.  His general thesis is basically:  Lightning is NOT Bitcoin.  And then he makes arguments that do not mak sense from that premise.  Like the last one quoted:

Quote
in bitcoin I can disapear for a decade and come back and know my finds are safe.. LN channel cant say the same

The whole reason for a second layer network is to build functionality the utilizes the FIRST layer but offers a different set of tradeoffs.  Just looking at the LN as a trust minimized, distributed network designed to allow a record to be kept of off chain transactions with minimal trust for the purpose of small commerce.  The archetypal coffee transaction.  And then these transaction can be settled on chain later.  It was never designed for you to hold value there for 10 years.  The tradeoffs it has are not as well suited to that and layer 1 cold storage.

Let's look at the argument in a similar context.

One could use the same basic logical framework  (somewhat generous really Smiley ) to argue that a Opendime with a balance on it "is not Bitcoin".  Or that Opendime "transactions" are not Bitcoin. I can have 0.01BTC on one of those and give it to you, and you can give it to someone else...  This is a physical layer 2 product.  And IT TOO has a different set of tradeoffs than the Bitcoin base layer.  It gives way better privacy for example.  But the hardware can fail... it can be seized.  It would be harder to fly across borders with it.  The hardware could be counterfeited, and so on.   And it too, after many "uses" can have the little hole punched, and then the balance on it will be "settled on chain" when you move the funds to cold storage, for example.

So Franky is right in some senses that LN is not Bitcoin.  Just like transacting with Opendimes is not bitcoin.  If you are defining "Bitcoin" as transactions on the base layer.  But just like the Opendime.  Ultimately what we are transacting on the LN IS BITCOIN.  Period.

Looking at complex systems with a polarized, binary, black and white lens is a mistake.  I would also argue that LBTC (Liquid) is also "Bitcoin".  It might be a further, riskier abstraction of Bitcoin than LN or an Opendime.  It certainly introduces new risks (AND advantages).  And just like the LN one should probably not use it for certain things.  Or at all, if you prefer.  But the underlying asset is still bitcoin.
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November 29, 2022, 04:18:23 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #373

converting a onion payment amount of 99,999msat
to 10sat is not a rounding error

its a full conversion at a 1000x rate
that 1000x rate is the part im on about not the idio roundong silly petty brush under carpet arguments you think that only happens in LN
That's not what is happening, though. 99,999msat are rounded down to 99sat if the channel state has to be settled on the blockchain (read: channel is closed). Just under 1sat gets lost. No 1000x rates or anything.
rounding is not a /1000
also there is no hard rule that is consensus defined and locked to ensure converting is done at a 1000 rate

i am laughing that you call a change by a factor of 1000x "rounding"
Are you familiar with the metric system? In this system, such conversions are very common and required. An example:
If you convert 99,999 millimeters (ninety nine thousand, nine hundred ninety nine - written without comma in Europe, just to clarify) to meters, what do you get? 99.999 meters (99 point 999 meters). Or 99 meters, 9 decimeters, 9 centimeters and 9 millimeters.
Anyhow; if we don't like (or can't work with) fractions, we need to use rounding. When rounding to the next meter, the conversion result would be 100m. We can't do that in Bitcoin or Lightning, since we can't create sats (or fractions of them) out of thin air; therefore we round down.
The conversion needs a factor of 1000x, indeed, since we go from msat (read: millisatoshi) to sat. milli standing for 'a thousandth'.

ok you give me $1999.. and ill "round that down for you to $1.90
and give you back $1.90 and tell you its the same things just rounded
You are working with the same unit here, though. No conversions. I can order 100999mm of cable from you and you deliver 100m or 101m, depending on how you round, if your machine can only cut cables in sections of 1m, for instance.

and how other cryptos have LN
Sure; other cryptos also have a blockchain. So? What's the point?

i do laugh that you still think LN is a sole feature of bitcoin and only compatible with bitcoin and relies on bitcoin to function..
It 'functions' on other blockchains, too; I personally doubt they're a good fit though, since I doubt their decentralization and security. Therefore to work well and securely, you need a good and secure base layer which only Bitcoin provides.

meaning the other guy or miners get 999,990 extra. by just editing a few lines of code that no one notices in a app update until months later when they finally settle up. because for the months before settling up they ware paying/displaying only msats that have no 'coin control' to ensure there is a guaranteed peg back to a promised value, leaving users thinking its a 1:1000 rate.. until its too late
Wait, your argument now changed from being confused about unit conversions to arguing about a malicious Lightning implementation being able to steal user funds? That's hilarious. Cheesy You can also deploy malicious on-chain wallets; that's not Lightning's fault.

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November 29, 2022, 04:30:57 PM
Last edit: November 29, 2022, 04:52:31 PM by franky1
 #374

more ignorance and moving away from the issue by trying to think its a rounding error.. it shows you do not observe or think outside the utopia promotions

also my point has always been. that LN has no network consensus to audit channels to ensure that funds exist to honour payments...

well its your network. go play with it.
just dont try jumping to the bitcoin community pretending LN is better than bitcoin. its not.

enjoy your niche market and accept your risks and stay blind. but dont over promise stuff about your network and then call crap on about the bitcoin network while hiding the big flaws of your network

oh and by the way. even pre-confirm.. the bitcoin network wont relay payments that have no valid confirmed UTXO. .. unlike your silly network that would.

and last lesson

inside a forum bout crypto.. inside a topic about a subnetwork.. you do not need to wear the promotion happy utopian hat..
people would have already heard of LN to even be in this topic. so you do not need to be on constant sales pitch .. instead people want to know the hard truths. the risks they should know about.
so wear the risk awareness hat. not the promoter hat

sounding like a over-promising snake oil salesman helps no one even genuine people that want to temporarily give a niche service a try for just a short period or a potential long term user.

when you OBSERVE that the audience of this topic is majority existing LN users. you will soon learn kiss assing a promotion sales bitch of over promise.. is futile in this topic

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November 29, 2022, 05:08:11 PM
 #375


oh and by the way. even pre-confirm.. the bitcoin network wont relay payments that have no valid confirmed UTXO. .. unlike your silly network that would.


Can you expand this?  Because as far as I can tell you do not actually understand how LN works.  It does not USE UTXO's outside of the ones in the underlying channel transaction open and close.  There are no UTXOs in lightning's accounting system.

And if your understanding of how lightning works, and how it relates to the base layer is this bad, then you really should not be making many arguments at all.
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November 29, 2022, 05:13:51 PM
Merited by n0nce (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #376

also my point has always been. that LN has no network consensus to audit channels to ensure that funds exist to honour payments...
Your point isn't true, and we've explained it to you like a million times. Not only in this page, but in others (which didn't have a lightning niche, but just included a reference, and you immediately started derailing as usual) and in a thread dedicated to you; you can't go more ridiculous than that. You're refuting the irrefutable years now. That's concerning.

I'm not going to write this one more time. I'll quote myself, because I've said it enough times already.

Lightning, on the other hand, requires no faith. You need to trust nobody but yourself to transact. Not your partners, not your partners' partners, no one.
if you are still thinking "lightning" is and only is bitcoin then you have major learning to do

https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/02-peer-protocol.md#the-open_channel-message
Emphasis mine:
Quote
The [chain_hash] value denotes the exact blockchain that the opened channel will reside within. This is usually the genesis hash of the respective blockchain. The existence of the [chain_hash] allows nodes to open channels across many distinct blockchains as well as have channels within multiple blockchains opened to the same peer (if it supports the target chains).
even the update is not saved to your ram/hard drive in a bitcoin TX format
After commitment_signed and revoke_and_ack messages, both parties have their final commitment transaction that is understandable by the Bitcoin protocol.
bitcoin does not ever leave the bitcoin network. it relies on locks and pegs.. and LN has no network wide consensus to audit/account/secure those pegs/locks.
It doesn't need consensus, other than the consensus between the two participants. Rath and n0nce can choose to configure their nodes to consider Litecoins Bitcoins, and equate Litecoin-based lightning payments with Bitcoin-based lightning payments. As long as me and my channel partners don't, n0nce and Rath hold no sway to me. What's so difficult to understand about that?
which if there is a break in the route. like if bob goes offline chen doesnt get paid
It doesn't matter what Bob does after he's given Chan the script. Bob gives him the money under that one condition, that is finding a number that returns TRUE once OP_HASH160 <h> OP_EQUALVERIFY is executed. It is commonly said that the money go backwards (Chan -> Dina, Bob -> Chan, Alice -> Bob), but the money actually go forwards (or precisely, the ownership of the money). What does go backwards is the satisfaction of each node's condition.

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November 29, 2022, 05:33:56 PM
 #377

more ignorance and moving away from the issue by trying to think its a rounding error.. it shows you do not observe or think outside the utopia promotions
Are you evading my replies and questions?

also my point has always been. that LN has no network consensus to audit channels to ensure that funds exist to honour payments...
True; no secret, nor issue, though. You check it yourself whether the 'funds exist' (funding transaction mined or not).

people would have already heard of LN to even be in this topic. so you do not need to be on constant sales pitch
Just correcting misinformation or clarifying things that you yourself are bringing up.

so wear the risk awareness hat. not the promoter hat
Sure; if you take off the overly-worried risk-exaggerating strawman hat.

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November 29, 2022, 06:54:58 PM
Last edit: November 29, 2022, 07:17:00 PM by franky1
 #378

first to blackhat

things you are IGNORING

1. people using Ln to buy things like coffees and normal small purchases you guys for years have said are not suitable for bitcoin but what people can do on LN
people are not going to be taking a laptop or desktop around with them.. they are going to be reliant on phone app wallets..

2. those phone app wallets are just GUI representations displaying msats. .. mostly funded by imbound balance from a service (partner) own stash which he is presumed but not guaranteed to have on a output directed to you.. presumed becasue those services usually ask you to download their prefered wallet too.

you pretend people can just press a button and see the commitment and know they at they can check its a real 6 confirm utxo.
but here is the thing

THOR TURBO PROVED YOU ALL WRONG

3. same goes for the 1:1000 rate
you HOPE its a 1:1000 rate but you dont find out until you are trying to settle.

i know you pretend that everyone reviews code and then has some command line to then search for raw data and read the content to see their msat balance amount is fair rated to their state commitment amount at 1:1000 rate.. but people dont do that. especially your niche userbase you are trying to recruit that are just phone app users.

you lot are the ones not thinking with open minds. you cant even want  to admit that LN has flaws.
LN has no network standard protection to weed out bad actors or nodes/apps that are abusive. (abusers: not following rules)

all you lot dream about is everyone floods into use LN and then go to sleep so you can raid their funds.
you lot never seem to have the risk awareness mindset as if you care about protecting the users you want to grab and pull into your silly subnetwork

4. LN does not have mechanisms to weed out bad actors using non backed channels or where states are abused by changing the 1:1000 by changing it to say 1:10 on their outbound amount designated for their victim partner they want to cheat.. again a service can do this and the network has no security to prevent it

5. bitcoin network however if i make a payment without a confirmed utxo backing the input.. . the relay network wont relay the transaction
if someone was to try sending abusive data. nodes ban them as peers and dont relay stuff to them.
LN has none of that

.. while you go around saying wrong because wrong and heres some quotes about network chainhash(not even part of my latest thing ) or  your other quotes about AFTER commitment scenarios.. or comments about rounding when the conversation is about none of that..

when i have multiple times now been talking about the problem with the.. CREATING commitment stage.. from the onion payment mismatch of value possibility via abusing the 1:1000 rate

6. you are also saying "if doesnt matter because"
but its that "it doesnt matter because you can broadcast any time.." statement by you lot that show how callous and ignorant you are.. because by the point of broadcasting it..  then its too late!!


now to n0nce:
as for you thinking there is no 1:1000 rate and its just some rounding thing where only 1 sat can be lost

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L12
here the 1000 rate.. and look how its used alot to convert msat to sat.. which you are avoiding reading and understanding

yes n0nce you showed L19 of same github of a COMMENT misinforming. but you never cared to see the CODE or read the entire thing

the mSatScale uint64 = 1000

is not the same as "if <1000 then 0"

if you truly understood all the code in its context and not just the comment sections. you would understand the rounding mechanism. and the scale ratio conversion mechanism are different

if you can only read comments in code and not the code itself..
try this one
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L40

now learn their comment terms of their comments section i linked.  where rounding is a different function to 'shedding by a factor of 1000'

then you might see the different function i am speaking of

once you can actually be bothered to talk about the risk factor i have been talking about. then i wont ignore your silly comments about something else you are trying to redirect the conversation to

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November 29, 2022, 07:46:05 PM
 #379

people are not going to be taking a laptop or desktop around with them.. they are going to be reliant on phone app wallets..
Which can talk with the lightning node at home.

2. those phone app wallets are just GUI representations displaying msats. .. mostly funded by imbound balance from a service (partner) own stash which he is presumed but not guaranteed to have on a output directed to you.. presumed becasue those services usually ask you to download their prefered wallet too.
I don't understand much from this sentence. There are mobile lightning clients that take your custody in exchange for comfort, if that's what you're saying, such as BlueWallet with hubs. These services don't provide you a proof of their stash, indeed, because you need to trust them either way.

you pretend people can just press a button and see the commitment and know they at they can check its a real 6 confirm utxo.
That's not supposed to be seen from a human...

LN has no network standard protection to weed out bad actors or nodes/apps that are abusive. (abusers: not following rules)
It's called penalty.

all you lot dream about is everyone floods into use LN and then go to sleep so you can raid their funds.
you lot never seem to have the risk awareness mindset as if you care about protecting the users you want to grab and pull into your silly subnetwork
Dude, seriously. It's called penalty. Look it up.

4. LN does not have mechanisms to weed out bad actors using non backed channels or where states are abused by changing the 1:1000 by changing it to say 1:10 on their outbound amount designated for their victim partner they want to cheat.. again a service can do this and the network has no security to prevent it
Except that your node always checks for the integrity of their partners automatically. They can't just open a 0.1 BTC channel with you, if they don't have the money.

I'm not going to respond to the latter. It's crystal clear now more that you haven't spent even an hour to study lightning.

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November 29, 2022, 07:54:13 PM
Last edit: November 29, 2022, 08:16:10 PM by franky1
 #380

phone wallets in general dont do general checks. you admit:
Quote
There are mobile lightning clients that take your custody in exchange for comfort, if that's what you're saying, such as BlueWallet with hubs. These services don't provide you a proof of their stash, indeed, because you need to trust them either way.
(glad you finally admit somewhat to it.. dont back peddle(though i know you do at your final paragragh of post) now keep stepping forward)

your phone wallet does not check integrity. especially if phone wallet is made by the service that told you to download their preferred wallet

even in lateral and bilateral channels. away from central services, you dont see the states behind the GUI.. so they are not checked.. (ill highlight later where you agree*)

as for penalties..
if YOU broadcast and see that instead of your presumed (1,000,000msat) 1,000sat you only got 10sat.. you cannot penalise a broadcast you sent. they can penalise you if you sent an old state out of order

but lets say they did broadcast while you slept
yea you penalise them where they also set the penalty to be.. oh yea in their favour because you were using their wallet!!

oh you also have to be online to spot their broadcast. and then use THEIR WALLET app to hope you have a state somewhere that can penalise them..

but as you said
Quote
*That's not supposed to be seen from a human...
and hope any state you can find gives you balance you deserve..

all these things are not things the network secures against.

all a user sees is a incoming msat balance and the just say yes please.. they are not involved in some contract interrogation process of agreeing on rates and ratios of conversions where they sit at a table and negotiate.

so yea goodluck

here is jsut one tip.. although you lot do not deserve it
for the NODES that do network gossip. they could (but doubt you'd care to implement it) as part of the gossip. check that all channel ID's of route channels do actually represent a funding tx which makes that channel liquid/solvant. thus you add it to the possible route list. where as if its using a temp ID or other bypass to create a channel(many ways to falsify things to create a channel) then you dont add it as a possible route. thus when you pass on that gossip. others can see the abuser is banned

4. LN does not have mechanisms to weed out bad actors using non backed channels or where states are abused by changing the 1:1000 by changing it to say 1:10 on their outbound amount designated for their victim partner they want to cheat.. again a service can do this and the network has no security to prevent it
Except that your node always checks for the integrity of their partners automatically. They can't just open a 0.1 BTC channel with you, if they don't have the money.

thor turbo proved you wrong.. shame you didnt observe

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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