Lightning Network Observer

[Freddie Boyer]

A very interesting presentation by Giacomo Zucco, her last week in Viareggio:

Zucco's talk provides interesting insight into the future of the Lightning Network and its potential impact on the Bitcoin industry. He discusses the various players in the Lightning scene, including Slashtags, Nostr, and Greenlight, and highlights the relationships between them.

The Lightning Network has the potential to increase the speed and efficiency of Bitcoin transactions, making it a promising solution to the scalability challenges facing the Bitcoin network. However, there are still some challenges to overcome, such as user adoption and network security.

My Opinion Overall, Zucco's talk was an insightful and informative look at the state of the Lightning Network and its potential impact on the Bitcoin industry. As the Lightning Network continues to grow and gain traction, it will be interesting to see how it develops and how it impacts the broader cryptocurrency ecosystem.

https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1640719353414033408

and here the official announcement👉https://blog.zebedee.io/zebedee-borderless-payments/

I am now wondering what happening in the credit cards war rooms,  where they are discussing how a gaming software House basically stripped their business away from them.

Banks will realize tomorrow.
Regulators cannot even understand what we are talking about.

Oh, I can imagine that credit card war room getting hot! It's always a tough pill to swallow when a gaming software house steps in and steals the show. But that's just the nature of the game. As for regulators, let's just say they might need a bit of a crash course in the gaming industry.

Either way, it's clear that the landscape is changing and it's up to the banks to adapt if they want to stay in the game.

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[cAPSLOCK]

A very interesting presentation by Giacomo Zucco, her last week in Viareggio:

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023


3

March 2023, 30. Talk by Giacomo Zucco about the future of Lightning in front of an audience of Bitcoin industry insiders and in particular Lightning Network. Very interesting insights and connections with Slashtags, Nostr, Greenlight and many other players in the international Lightning scene.

Please note this is a copy of the streaming session, so quality is not great.

Slides are available here.

But how can you stand his incredible accent!

(just kidding... just kidding... I know I know)

[BlackHatCoiner]

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023

Payment privacy is "unimportant stuff"?

[cryptosize]

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023

Payment privacy is "unimportant stuff"?

Yet another WEF trojan horse?

[mendace]

A very interesting presentation by Giacomo Zucco, her last week in Viareggio:

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023

Interesting pity that the congress was closed to guests only and not to the public otherwise I would have gone willingly.  There was really a lot of quality.

[fillippone]

A very interesting presentation by Giacomo Zucco, her last week in Viareggio:

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023

Interesting pity that the congress was closed to guests only and not to the public otherwise I would have gone willingly.  There was really a lot of quality.

As far as I know it’s a privately organised event, entirely sponsored by a (wealthy) private individual.
If I am not mistaken the first edition took place right after the PlanB Lugano event last year.

[cAPSLOCK]

The State of Lightning Network - Giacomo Zucco @ Lightning Summit Viareggio 2023

Payment privacy is "unimportant stuff"?

Yet another WEF trojan horse?

I think you must be unfamiliar with this speakers sense of humor.

[JayJuanGee]

Well part of my motivation to add wallets has to do with Blue wallet closing down its lighting wallet that I had been using.. so I have to look for a replacement.. and OBW does not work on IOS... ..

Ok I understand that you want to manage your wallet and therefore also the channels, you could also consider making yourself a very simple node with Umbrel and manage it with Zeus from IOS

I had been thinking of responding to your post from about a month ago (mendace), and then I kind of forgot.. and still I had been doing a bit of searching around regarding what I wanted to do next, and surely there may be some time down the road when I end up wanting to run a lightning node.. or even a kind of easy-peasy (already mostly set up lightning node), but I feel that I need to walk before I run.. including probably running an actual bitcoin node first, prior to attempting to run a lighting node (even if it might be an already set up or an easy peasy version of a lightning node)... so in some sense, each of us likely have to attempt to go with our level of comfort - including that I have some other things that I am trying to take care of in terms of both my personal life and obligations and also just some other things that I am trying to take care of in terms of some of my coin management that has to do more with main chain ideas of locations and even some joint custody relations for some of the coins.

In this other post, that I link here that I just made in the BlueWallet Discussion thread, I described that I had at least downloaded both Breez and Phoenix in order to move my BlueWallet lightning network coins over to those two wallets.. and in that post, I mention how I am considering that might add Blixt Wallet onto my experimentation with lightning network wallets later too.. perhaps? perhaps?

[franky1]

imagine if in 1997 there was a pre release of windows 98. but where you needed to run unix+dos+win98 just to get win98 to work. where it was not just 1 CD that just installed by itself.. and where 7 years later it still was not just one install

do you think window would have been as popular

imagine if win98 had ways to lose files and corrupt data and allow others to steal data and microsoft 6 years later didnt patch it. nor patch the updates(me/xp)
do you think people would have wanted windows ME, XP knowing they were just more colourful versions of the same flaw.

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

but all i see is lemmings promoting LN like its gods gift to currency even when el-salvador as a whole country tried it for a couple months and dropped it quick. and even now nigeria is not really pushing for it even though from all lemmings speeches, nigeria is supposed to be big on LN right now.. but reality is, its not

i think its time the lemmings realise that they are pulling a dead cow up a mountain. and realise their farming practices are not going to market, or if observed at market. get trashed soon after

there are many other subnetworks that peg btc far younger then LN that have gained more btc liquidity locks and actually move value with more secure locks than LN..
LN has failed the test of time, failed the test of monetary policy, failed value utility, and failed the test of security.. its time to accept it and make a new network without the flaws for your niche utility offerings. and stop pandering a decaying cow to a market that can smell that it stinks

people want fresh meat or meat they can trust. LN is and does neither

[mendace]

In this other post, that I link here that I just made in the BlueWallet Discussion thread, I described that I had at least downloaded both Breez and Phoenix in order to move my BlueWallet lightning network coins over to those two wallets.. and in that post, I mention how I am considering that might add Blixt Wallet onto my experimentation with lightning network wallets later too.. perhaps? perhaps?

I absolutely agree, each of us must respect our own times and running a lightning knot is not that easy.  The simplest solutions are plug and play ones like Umbrel, Embassy, ​​MyNode but they are not very stable.  As for Blixt it seems to me a little too immature, better breeze.

[cryptosize]

imagine if in 1997 there was a pre release of windows 98. but where you needed to run unix+dos+win98 just to get win98 to work. where it was not just 1 CD that just installed by itself.. and where 7 years later it still was not just one install

do you think window would have been as popular

imagine if win98 had ways to lose files and corrupt data and allow others to steal data and microsoft 6 years later didnt patch it. nor patch the updates(me/xp)
do you think people would have wanted windows ME, XP knowing they were just more colourful versions of the same flaw.

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

but all i see is lemmings promoting LN like its gods gift to currency even when el-salvador as a whole country tried it for a couple months and dropped it quick. and even now nigeria is not really pushing for it even though from all lemmings speeches, nigeria is supposed to be big on LN right now.. but reality is, its not

i think its time the lemmings realise that they are pulling a dead cow up a mountain. and realise their farming practices are not going to market, or if observed at market. get trashed soon after

there are many other subnetworks that peg btc far younger then LN that have gained more btc liquidity locks and actually move value with more secure locks than LN..
LN has failed the test of time, failed the test of monetary policy, failed value utility, and failed the test of security.. its time to accept it and make a new network without the flaws for your niche utility offerings. and stop pandering a decaying cow to a market that can smell that it stinks

people want fresh meat or meat they can trust. LN is and does neither

Imagine TCP/IP, the most successful internetworking protocol:

[hZti]

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

Lightning is complicated and not a very good options for the average user, that part I can understand very easily and honestly think the exact same.
However what are the flaws in the system that you talk about? Are those security issues or more usability issues?

[fillippone]

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

Lightning is complicated and not a very good options for the average user, that part I can understand very easily and honestly think the exact same.
However what are the flaws in the system that you talk about? Are those security issues or more usability issues?

LN is far from a perfect solution.
Liquidity, routing and interface issues still make the usage of LN, albeit on a noncustodial way, still difficult for the average user.
Yet, I think it is an huge success, as the race is a marathon, to be won over the decades, not a sprint to be won in 6 years.

[DooMAD]

LN has failed the test of time

Then, by the same token, so have you.  The difference is that you have far less potential to evolve and grow (arguably none, as we've apparently reached peak-frank already).  Please enlighten us as to what you've achieved in the last 6 years.  Other than noise, what do you produce?  It sure as hell isn't code or good ideas.  You contribute nothing of value.

Conversely, LN has multiple independent dev teams.  Many people producing actual code.  They have impetus on their side and they continue to make advancements.  They don't whine, they create.  And they've already achieved far more than you ever will.  So maybe show just a little respect.

[JayJuanGee]

imagine if in 1997 there was a pre release of windows 98. but where you needed to run unix+dos+win98 just to get win98 to work. where it was not just 1 CD that just installed by itself.. and where 7 years later it still was not just one install

do you think window would have been as popular

imagine if win98 had ways to lose files and corrupt data and allow others to steal data and microsoft 6 years later didnt patch it. nor patch the updates(me/xp)
do you think people would have wanted windows ME, XP knowing they were just more colourful versions of the same flaw.

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

but all i see is lemmings promoting LN like its gods gift to currency even when el-salvador as a whole country tried it for a couple months and dropped it quick. and even now nigeria is not really pushing for it even though from all lemmings speeches, nigeria is supposed to be big on LN right now.. but reality is, its not

i think its time the lemmings realise that they are pulling a dead cow up a mountain. and realise their farming practices are not going to market, or if observed at market. get trashed soon after

there are many other subnetworks that peg btc far younger then LN that have gained more btc liquidity locks and actually move value with more secure locks than LN..
LN has failed the test of time, failed the test of monetary policy, failed value utility, and failed the test of security.. its time to accept it and make a new network without the flaws for your niche utility offerings. and stop pandering a decaying cow to a market that can smell that it stinks

people want fresh meat or meat they can trust. LN is and does neither

Your description (Franky) seems to be both out of touch with reality - in terms of ongoing progress that is being made by the lightning network - including increased adoption (network effects) and increased development, and in terms of any kinds of challenges that come towards the building (or layering) of payments that are not onchain, but can be settled/resolved with onchain.. while at the same times have a whole hell of a lot of non-stoppability in terms of being able to send value (and even communicate) in ways that are similarly powerful as onchain, but surely having some differing dynamics in terms of some of the ways that transaction costs are calculated.. but also how payments may or may not be traced... even with both quasi-public and less public (private channels in which who the fuck is going to know about the transaction?).

You frequently come off as being nearly crazy (or is it "a nutjob"?) (with your seemingly ongoing passion for your point of view to be saying that you are supposedly "pro-bitcoin" but fighting so much against various aspects of bitcoin.., derailing productive discussions (even though you might sometimes make some interesting points, but still hard to read you when so ladened with emotions and then intermingled information that does not seem to be correct or is exaggerated in ways that are more distracting than they are helpful) like a no coiner, a bitcoin naysayer, a shitcoiner, or some dweeb like that ego-driven Roger Ver who could not (and perhaps still cannot) accept that the direction of bitcoin has been going in ways that differed from his various imposition-laden fantasy-landia preferences) because you are such a negative Nancy in regards to lightning network and even your various ongoing convoluted criticisms of segwit that seem to stem from desires 2017 blocksize war discussions that Segwit had not gone live.. and/or maybe you would be somewhat happy if whatever development(s) in bitcoin would be able to reach your stamp of approval.. and surely, by now you should realize that bitcoin no doesn't work like that.. we don't even have any benevolent dictators, even if you were the smartest guy in the room.. which does not even seem to be the case based on the kinds of battles that you ongoingly want to engage...

Do you have a phone?  or maybe some ways that you might interact with others using lightning network?   You gotta be trying to get your feet wet with this shit, rather than ongoingly making theoretical (no skin in the game observations) in order to really be attempting to learn and to show us that you are genuinely trying.

You seem to be quite a bit smarter than me in regards to some of the technical aspects of both lightning network and bitcoin too.., yet I can still see that sometimes (or is it frequently?) some of your criticizms are full of shit and seeming to want to lord over in regards to making things technical when there are some bigger questions, including just mere usability matters..

Sure, I will admit that I had not really even started to feel comfortable enough to really even attempt to get into LN until recently (largely I took some more concrete steps in around July or so - even though I had been trying to keep up with some of the lightning network threads, even since late 2017 when it was first becoming more popular to discuss and perhaps even moreso when it went live in a kind of rebellious and "premature" way due to some of the then spam attacks that seemed to have had been taking place through bigblockers or shitcoiners or bitcoin naysayers.. or who really knows who? but I do recall lightning network going live..and then the spam attacks pretty quickly subsiding.. along with the mempool getting cleared out over the following weeks.. ..  hahahahaha.. what drama we have around these parts..  ).. and also until there seems to be more justifications to have alternative ways to interact with bitcoin in a way that attempts to limit the use of third parties, or at least spreads out the various third parties in ways that they are not as likely to cut us off from being able to transact in bitcoin (if we were to want to or to need to).  Part of my point is that practice likely is a good thing, but I will also admit that there are a lot of folks who I had been trying to get to use lightning network and almost the best that I can find is someone willing to transact with CashApp.. which surely is quite far from decentralized.. even though it is one of the players that includes lightning network options that are likely somewhat easy to use, even though surely not decentralized..

In this other post, that I link here that I just made in the BlueWallet Discussion thread, I described that I had at least downloaded both Breez and Phoenix in order to move my BlueWallet lightning network coins over to those two wallets.. and in that post, I mention how I am considering that might add Blixt Wallet onto my experimentation with lightning network wallets later too.. perhaps? perhaps?

I absolutely agree, each of us must respect our own times and running a lightning knot is not that easy.  The simplest solutions are plug and play ones like Umbrel, Embassy, ​​MyNode but they are not very stable.  As for Blixt it seems to me a little too immature, better breeze.

Yep.. part of the reason that I want to go somewhat slowly.. and just see if I am going to be able to do any of those things.. and I do like some of the power of the descriptions of the Embassy (Start9's approach towards being able to run various apps through your own node), and I have heard several interviews of one of their founders (on various bitcoin only podcasts)... but still even just looking at the website.. it seems like it could have some difficulties to run on my computer.. but then another thing to actually buy one of their computers seems like one more of the things to hall around if I am traveling or even to have someone watch it (to turn it back on or whatever) if I were to leave it in one location while I am traveling.. Just something to keep learning about and some of us less technical folks would prefer plug and play, but there are risks with plug and play too.. .. and yeah, seems to take a while to figure out some ways to have some level of plug and play and at the same time have some confidence that others are reviewing the code and the various potential backdoors.

[mendace]

well LN has had 6 years of chances. but the flaws still exist and the more popular it gets the more flaws appear.

but all i see is lemmings promoting LN like its gods gift to currency even when el-salvador as a whole country tried it for a couple months and dropped it quick. and even now nigeria is not really pushing for it even though from all lemmings speeches, nigeria is supposed to be big on LN right now.. but reality is, its not


people want fresh meat or meat they can trust. LN is and does neither

what a f***k?  My eyes are bleeding.  So you think LN is not working because in 6 years they failed to solve some problems?  All this is absurd.  LN is the way forward to pave the mass adoption of Bitcoin without too many words.  While El Salvador did not let LN go because it doesn't work but simply because it is a corrupt country where their president is playing the politician but with great pressure from the USA and if you really think that the FED and the USA will leave countries like El Salvador making them play with Bitcoin then you are thinking wrong.  El Salvador is an unsuccessful experiment, but not because there were any difficulties in development or programming but only because we really wanted it to be like this.

[franky1]

Imagine TCP/IP, the most successful internetworking protocol:

if you are trying to claim LN is as good as internet protocol layer above apps.. you are fooling yourself

LN is a service not a protocol. LN has no network wide consensus protocol. its not even a standard. its a mish mash of crap apps that have issues communicating with each other

LN is a subnetwork not a top level

..
economics comparison

if dollar wire transfer was the main net..
LN is not the IMF SDR rail
LN is the venmo

[cryptosize]

Imagine TCP/IP, the most successful internetworking protocol:

if you are trying to claim LN is as good as internet protocol layer above apps.. you are fooling yourself

LN is a service not a protocol. LN has no network wide consensus protocol. its not even a standard. its a mish mash of crap apps that have issues communicating with each other

LN is a subnetwork not a top level

..
economics comparison

if dollar wire transfer was the main net..
LN is not the IMF SDR rail
LN is the venmo

TCP/IP was invented back in 1982.

Tik Tok came much later.

Also, it seems you don't know Windows 98 ran on top of the DOS kernel.

Old IT guys are very familiar with this layered approach. It seems it's all new to you.

[franky1]

Imagine TCP/IP, the most successful internetworking protocol:

if you are trying to claim LN is as good as internet protocol layer above apps.. you are fooling yourself

LN is a service not a protocol. LN has no network wide consensus protocol. its not even a standard. its a mish mash of crap apps that have issues communicating with each other

LN is a subnetwork not a top level

..
economics comparison

if dollar wire transfer was the main net..
LN is not the IMF SDR rail
LN is the venmo

TCP/IP was invented back in 1982.

Tik Tok came much later.

Also, it seems you don't know Windows 98 ran on top of the DOS kernel.

Old IT guys are very familiar with this layered approach. It seems it's all new to you.

windows/tiktok developers knew about a thing called user friendliness
even an idiot can use windows. and tiktok

read the posts in this topic of all the people having issues using LN

and as for "top layers"
tiktok is not a top layer. its a niche service

a top layer is the main backbone that manages other layers

a top layer domain is not "bitcointalk" its instead ".org"
a top layer is not "venmo" a top layer is "IMF SDR"

LN is not tcp/ip equivalent. its tiktok equivalent as you have admitted accidentality

coming later does not make it ontop it makes it secondary/dependant


i know you lemmings want to pretend LN is bitcoin2.0 or better than/ontop of bitcoin but LN can function without bitcoin. and it does ALOT of the time run without bitcoin

there are far more wallet users that dont run a bitcoin node than there are users with a bitcoin node.

tiktok can run without android it can run with Ios or other operating systems

windows/IoS/bitcoin are not dependant on LN running

LN is not dependant nor requires bitcoin.
bitcoin is not dependant nor requires LN
thus its not a protocol level system. its a sub service of a protocol level system

i laugh when lemmings think that LN is a protocol level system above a mainnet

seems you have not learned the many problems cypherpunks hit their heads against when trying to may digital money. which were solved by blockchains. seems you are the one that does not know about what blockchains provide and instead you want to go back to systems pre bitcoin to mess around with

but hey. you are only wasting your own time trying to promote what is considered as Myspace.. a defunct network/service

other people have given up waiting for LN promises. because even LN devs have admitted LN has flaws that cant be fixed. even whole countries have dropped LN to use something else

and one last thing. a reminder of the usefulness
even a idiot can get tiktok to run without a headache. but LN after 6 years is not made for idiots even if you are advertising failed LN to idiots

its time to accept it.
time to observe the failures of LN and start from scratch with a new service for the niche userbase you want to recruit. a niche service that actually works

LN has become  the delay excuse the "wait until LN is popular before bitcoin gets to evolve" where, reality is. thats not going to happen. so time to move on from the LN failed experiment

yep even things like avalanche has more BTC liquidity locks than LN and avalanche is not even 2 years old

whilst others are choosing other niche services for microtransactions due to the failure of LN you lemmings are still flogging a dead horse of LN and then doubling down by saying bitcoin should not evolve until LN succeeds. hoping that you can sway the masses to use LN just so that it prompts devs to evolve bitcoin mainnet.
sorry but that sales tactic wont work. LN wont get popular its time to accept it and try something different

[cryptosize]

Bitcoin is the TCP/IP of money:

https://medium.com/@samikkurty/is-the-bitcoin-protocol-similar-to-tcp-ip-a6127f08f893
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dd3uv/paul_buchheit_inventor_of_gmail_tweets_how/

Most people don't get it... even some old "BTC maxis" (well, you sound more like a shitcoiner when you mention MySpace, because shitcoiners think BTC is like MySpace and will be supplanted by alts).

TCP/IP is the foundation of the internet and Tik Tok is an app (Layer 7 on OSI model) that runs on top of it.

What's so hard to understand about the layered approach in IT?

Claiming BTC/LN is not very user-friendly currently is like claiming internet wasn't very user-friendly back in 1991. This argument doesn't hold any water.