How does evil fee makes sense?

[libert19]

Actual newbies will be put off by this while the ones who were actually looking to make alts will pay those few thousand satoshi (or just use fresh ip or smth), what's the point?

[1713575377]

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[1713575377]

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[mk4]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee. And if he/she can't afford the small fee, then there are other Bitcoin communities out there (e.g. Reddit/Twitter). It's not like they're totally shunned off out of Bitcoin if they can't get into Bitcointalk.

On the other hand, spammers are far less incentivized to continue their spamming spree if there's a fee. Yes, the fee is not that much, but it really adds up as they make more and more accounts.

[Maus0728]

As far as I know, "Units of Evil" refers to the degree of the violation of your IP address when you register for an account. It's a system that prevents users from using the same IP address to create multiple accounts.

Here's the image (zoom in):
https://bitcointalk.org/banmap201805.png

For comparison, here's the one from 2015:
https://bitcointalk.org/banmap201510.png

Each pixel is a /24 address block (ie. each pixel represents 256 IP addresses). The colors are:
█ Zero or nearly zero evil
█ A small amount of evil
█ More
█ More
█ At this point you actually have to pay if you register an account in this block
█ More
█ More
█ More
█ Pretty high
█ A ton of evil, more than anyone is likely to pay

[dkbit98]

I know several personal examples of people who I invited to join bitcointalk forum and they couldn't registered because they got evil fee notification and asked to pay with Bitcoin.
Keep in mind that they never before heard about bitcointalk forum, they never registered in this forum, and they don't own any Bitcoin for paying this evil fee :/
I even tested and confirmed this myself from different location, using different device, maybe because some networks are using shared IP addresses.
In the process of punishing spammers and banned users we are also punishing innocent newbies and that is a fact.

[Mpamaegbu]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee.

Those hearing about this forum for the first time and wanting to try it out may not know how knowledge packed this forum is and may easily yolk it together with other scam sites asking for payment too. Some of us have been programmed and wired to think so that any site asking for cash upfront is a scam waiting to happen. I do rationalize my thoughts that way too. On the whole, I stoically believe that the registration fee (that's what it boils down to, anyway) is highly unnecessary and should be removed.

[Rikafip]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee. And if he/she can't afford the small fee, then there are other Bitcoin communities out there (e.g. Reddit/Twitter). It's not like they're totally shunned off out of Bitcoin if they can't get into Bitcointalk.

I don't think that it's so simple like "if newbie is really interested, he will pay the fee". Let's say that someone started reading about bitcoin, likes forums in general, decided to register here and get welcomed by the message that says he done something wrong and has to pay fee, while he doesn't even own any bitcoin yet and visited bitcointalk for the first time. How many of those will bother buying their first btc just to register on some forum? I know that I wouldn't, I would just say fuck it and move elsewhere, and probably many others too.

On the other hand, spammers are far less incentivized to continue their spamming spree if there's a fee. Yes, the fee is not that much, but it really adds up as they make more and more accounts.

Spammers will find a way to circumvent this evil fee thing as they financial incentive to do so, while genuine users that just wanted to ask a couple of questions get rekted. Given the current state of forum, I don't think that's a good approach.

[lovesmayfamilis]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee.

Those hearing about this forum for the first time and wanting to try it out may not know how knowledge packed this forum is and may easily yolk it together with other scam sites asking for payment too. Some of us have been programmed and wired to think so that any site asking for cash upfront is a scam waiting to happen. I do rationalize my thoughts that way too. On the whole, I stoically believe that the registration fee (that's what it boils down to, anyway) is highly unnecessary and should be removed.

In this case, what works is that spammers or farmers of their accounts will feel completely free.
The forum is allowed to enter from any VPN or proxy. I may repeat myself, but what's the problem with buying a VPN? For 2 or 3 accounts, since you really need alternative accounts, you can spend a little. But the picture will change if we allow blocked users to register accounts again as if nothing had happened.
Then what is the meaning of all the rules and prohibitions?

[Rikafip]

The forum is allowed to enter from any VPN or proxy. I may repeat myself, but what's the problem with buying a VPN?

How many of those that are new to crypto and just wanna ask few questions will be willing to go through  hassle of buying VPN just to register on some forum? You know who won't have an issue getting some cheap VPN to register bunch of alt accounts? Those whose goal is to make money out of this forum, aka spammers and scammers.

Take as an example @dkbit98 experience, where he invited couple of people who got that evil fee msg and gave up on forum. God knows how many legit users gave up due that.

[stompix]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee. And if he/she can't afford the small fee, then there are other Bitcoin communities out there (e.g. Reddit/Twitter). It's not like they're totally shunned off out of Bitcoin if they can't get into Bitcointalk.

Two or three years ago I would have agreed with you but I don't feel like that anymore.
It makes no point to cast users aside when they are newbies and throw them to other social media websites that are full of shills and paid posters where usually newbies get the wrong idea about both bitcoin and crypto in general.
When I was browsing the forum created by yobit I was genuinely surprised by the number of people that were posting in  a "vs bitcointalk" topic and were sure that bitcointalk requires a membership fee to use.

On the other hand, spammers are far less incentivized to continue their spamming spree if there's a fee. Yes, the fee is not that much, but it really adds up as they make more and more accounts.

I don't know...Maybe getting rid of the evil fee and instead of that putting a captcha on every action form made by a user who signed up via an evil IP? And maybe remove that once he gained 10 or x merits? Keeping spammers away while losing also a lot of users, maybe trying to deal with them would be better?

In this case, what works is that spammers or farmers of their accounts will feel completely free.
The forum is allowed to enter from any VPN or proxy. I may repeat myself, but what's the problem with buying a VPN? For 2 or 3 accounts, since you really need alternative accounts, you can spend a little.

Common, the average user that is just now looking for information about bitcoin will run into that and will not bother to install a VPN (if he even knows how to install one) but will simply close the window and go to a different place thinking that you need to pay to access this as you do with some newspapers that are behind a paywall. Not everyone is born with all that knowledge and learning is one thing this forum should be a part of in my opinion.

[Welsh]

Makes perfect sense to me, it prevents the more malicious users from registering while the genuine users using an IP address which has previously been associated with these malicious users will have to pay a small fee. Okay, its not a perfect solution, but it has been proven to work over the years.

Here's what theymos said in the other thread if you haven't seen it:

Only abused IP ranges have to pay a fee. The fee is an anti-abuse measure, and it is not meant to be (and isn't) much of a source of revenue.

If any very-veteran members want to volunteer, I can give you the ability to whitelist users. (All Staff can already whitelist users, as well.) Perhaps then someone could create a topic like "List of email addresses for people who can whitelist you for free", which I could link-to on the evil fee page. However, these IPs have evil for a reason. If it was sufficient for them to just solve a captcha or something, I'd have them do that.

I don't know...Maybe getting rid of the evil fee and instead of that putting a captcha on every action form made by a user who signed up via an evil IP? And maybe remove that once he gained 10 or x merits? Keeping spammers away while losing also a lot of users, maybe trying to deal with them would be better?

This seems excessive, and probably wouldn't be beneficial at all. The malicious users would still get through, okay you would prevent some bots from registering, but there are other types of malicious users that the evil fee prevents. Then there's the issue with captcha's; they just aren't very effective at what they are suppose to do. There's services out there which will solve the captcha for pennies, and that is significantly lower cost than the evil fee. I don't know the going rate, but I'd assume they'd offer to do 100s for a few pennies. Its why Google tried to bring in a better system like the pictures, but inevitably they'll do them for too.

[Pmalek]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee.

I don't think so and it doesn't seem right. If there was an entry fee for everyone who joined, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But if I invite my cousin here, and he is asked to pay an evil fee when I claimed that I never had to, he would think I was a scamming jerk. 

And if he/she can't afford the small fee, then there are other Bitcoin communities out there (e.g. Reddit/Twitter). It's not like they're totally shunned off out of Bitcoin if they can't get into Bitcointalk.

With no or less fresh blood, the Bitcointalk community will be slowly dying. The existing members will one day grow old and tired of Bitcointalk and proper replacements are needed. There have been plenty of discussions lately how the activity is dropping and the evil fees are one small part of the problem. 

[The Sceptical Chymist]

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee.

I wouldn't have paid a fee to be a member here, but then again I didn't register multiple accounts or use Tor or whatever it is that triggers the evil fee.  And most members won't ever have to worry about that--just the people most likely to misuse the forum, so I think it's pretty generous on Theymos's part.

The existing members will one day grow old and tired of Bitcointalk and proper replacements are needed. There have been plenty of discussions lately how the activity is dropping and the evil fees are one small part of the problem. 

That would be a problem if everyone had to pay whatever cost it is for the evil fee, but not everyone does--and this forum isn't suffering from a lack of new members, or even a lack of active ones.  There's never been a problem with the fee before (and in fact it rarely gets mentioned), so I think this thread is just someone griping about it because they're one of the ones who have to pay it.

[mk4]

I wouldn't have paid a fee to be a member here, but then again I didn't register multiple accounts or use Tor or whatever it is that triggers the evil fee.  And most members won't ever have to worry about that--just the people most likely to misuse the forum, so I think it's pretty generous on Theymos's part.

This is pretty much my point. Because as far as I know(not sure how tight Bitcointalk is concerning evil fees when registering so correct me if I'm wrong here), probably like ballpark 95% of people going to register isn't going to be required to pay the evil fee in the first place. The only people who are going to pay are the privacy-conscious(Tor/VPN/proxy users) people and the spammers themselves.

[stompix]

This seems excessive, and probably wouldn't be beneficial at all. The malicious users would still get through, okay you would prevent some bots from registering, but there are other types of malicious users that the evil fee prevents.

Ok, with the risk of looking completely stupid, what other types of malicious users do we have around, I count spammers as bots, and we have ban evaders which in most cases are smarter than the usual newbie and in 99% cases know how to use a VPN. What others are there that can pose such a threat?? Of course, you're a moderator and you get access to a lot more data than me, I've also just read the reply theymos gave on the other topic so probably I'm having the wrong impression about this one.

[Mpamaegbu]

The forum is allowed to enter from any VPN or proxy. I may repeat myself, but what's the problem with buying a VPN?

Some VPN are even free on the playstore and apple stores.

Take as an example @dkbit98 experience, where he invited couple of people who got that evil fee msg and gave up on forum. God knows how many legit users gave up due that.

That was also a situation I found myself when I introduced two people to the forum. I had to pay the evil fees for them so as to encourage them. It was a situation I didn't want to get involved in because of the financial commitment. Sadly, I ended up being their only rescuer.

[ScamViruS]

Not all newbies have to pay this fee. The fee has to be paid by those who try to open more than one account or create an account using shared ip. The problem is that the user who uses the shared ip, he/she has to pay evil fee at the time of registration without doing any bad deeds. And for this reason, some newbie may not be able to join this community. This amount will be less, from users who try to create multiple accounts.

Like I created this account of mine and was able to post without any kind of fee. So real newbies can create an account in this forum without paying any fees. So this Evil fee prevents multiple account holders who try to create more accounts using different methods. And these activities are done by those who use those accounts to spamming.

[Mpamaegbu]

This amount will be less, from users who try to create multiple accounts.

That's not true. Not every new account is a farmed account. There are very clean innocent users who want to come in for the first time who are faced with the IP challenge. I really don't know how the forum derived that, of an IP getting mapped as evil and then get innocent users punished.

Like I created this account of mine and was able to post without any kind of fee.

I thought that was for those of us who got registered pre-2018 that got lucky escaping the sledgehammer. But your profile reads 2019. You must be lucky then. I have made payments for two different people on this just to encourage them to get on board around that period or so too.

So this Evil fee prevents multiple account holders who try to create more accounts using different methods. And these activities are done by those who use those accounts to spamming.

This type of narrative is misleading, honestly. Those who already have accounts here and intend to farm more won't be deterred by the evil fees which are for them infinitesimal, compared to what they know they stand to gain in form of payments from bounties and signature campaigns. This isn't so for anyone new. I have a case like that now with a mentee who got skeptical paying that evil fee..

[Daniel91]

I know several personal examples of people who I invited to join bitcointalk forum and they couldn't registered because they got evil fee notification and asked to pay with Bitcoin.
Keep in mind that they never before heard about bitcointalk forum, they never registered in this forum, and they don't own any Bitcoin for paying this evil fee :/
I even tested and confirmed this myself from different location, using different device, maybe because some networks are using shared IP addresses.
In the process of punishing spammers and banned users we are also punishing innocent newbies and that is a fact.

I can also confirm that the same thing happened to two of my friends, who were interested in crypto and I wanted to help them register on this forum and get involved in the crypto community.
My friends had no knowledge of crypto, they didn’t even have crypto funds to pay the evil fee, and they didn’t even know how to open a crypto wallet and send crypto funds.
Shouldn't this forum be a friendly place for new and inexperienced members, where they will gain the first information about the crypto world and get the necessary support and help?
I don't know, maybe I'm naive and I don't understand some things, but somehow I feel that something is wrong here and that it needs to be corrected.

[DdmrDdmr]

Not sure if this has been answered around here as of late, but which IPs of the banned user are actually taken into consideration to be marked and scored through the Evil algorithm?

I mean, an account could go over a variety of IPs in the last x days, so I’m trying to understand whether the algorithm applies to the IP used to create the account, the last IP used before actually getting banned, or any IP used by the account in a certain timeframe (+ what timeframe we’re talking about).

Found the answer:

Just curious - Is it the last used IP?

All IPs on file for them are banned, and each one will affect its neighbors.

Do evil points ever fade away

Yes. This map is pretty short-term. And I'm probably not going to update it. But it's still interesting IMO.

[LoyceV]

I can also confirm that the same thing happened to two of my friends, who were interested in crypto and I wanted to help them register on this forum and get involved in the crypto community.

If this happens again (or if you still know their usernames), please post in Remove Proxyban (evil fees) - get whitelisted for free so I (or someone else) can whitelist them:

2. Get someone to vouch for you
If an established member knows you personally, they can post your username in this topic for whitelisting.