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Author Topic: How does evil fee makes sense?  (Read 589 times)
Welsh
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July 20, 2021, 06:55:01 PM
Last edit: July 20, 2021, 07:11:44 PM by Welsh
 #21

Ok, with the risk of looking completely stupid, what other types of malicious users do we have around, I count spammers as bots, and we have ban evaders which in most cases are smarter than the usual newbie and in 99% cases know how to use a VPN. What others are there that can pose such a threat?? Of course, you're a moderator and you get access to a lot more data than me, I've also just read the reply theymos gave on the other topic so probably I'm having the wrong impression about this one.
Off the top of my head; Spammers, advertising bots, malware spreaders, ban evasion, and I'm sure there's plenty more. For example, even with the evil score, we have outbreaks of these types of users, where they bombard the forum with various different things. A few months back there was a lot of nuked users if anyone was paying attention to the modlog, and that was a result of these outbreaks. It isn't entirely about the different attack vectors though, its the volume that is prevents.

The idea is, we make it as difficult as possible for these types of users to register accounts, at least without using a clean IP. If they are using a VPN, they are likely using the most popular ones, i.e the cheapest. Eventually, those VPN's will accumulate a lot of evil score, and it makes it more expensive. Now, this does absolutely hinder the process of registering for genuine users, but unfortunately its probably contributed significantly to the amount of malicious users that get through. I'm sure theymos has the numbers, and if it wasn't working, he would likely remove it.

I don't think anyone every looks stupid when asking for clarification for the record.

I know several personal examples of people who I invited to join bitcointalk forum and they couldn't registered because they got evil fee notification and asked to pay with Bitcoin.
Send me a personal message if they do want to register on the forum, and you can recommend them.


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July 20, 2021, 08:45:34 PM
 #22

Actual newbies will be put off by this while the ones who were actually looking to make alts will pay those few thousand satoshi (or just use fresh ip or smth), what's the point?

The point is to inconvenience scammers and spammers who try to hide their identity using things like TOR.  At the same time, less educated newbies will likely then pay the fee leaving a trail to their true identity, or having to mask this payment as well, which you guessed it, further inconveniences them or possibly even doxes them via the blockchain.  It's one of the few processes that has been put in place to empower honest users by inconveniencing others and isn't an issue for anyone who isn't hiding anything.


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July 20, 2021, 09:42:02 PM
 #23

Off the top of my head; Spammers, advertising bots, malware spreaders, ban evasion, and I'm sure there's plenty more. For example, even with the evil score, we have outbreaks of these types of users, where they bombard the forum with various different things.

Oh got it, in my mind I just lumped together all of them as spammers, be it for advertising or phishing links or PMs, everyone that posts something that is unwanted, that's why I was curious if there are other things people do around that is dangerous which is not involving actual posting.

Well, maybe because the barrier is having a real effect on cutting down we don't ​see them and we underestimate the dangers but seeing how there are lots of people even in this topic who have one or two friends having problems one must think there might be a lot more that don't know anyone on this forum and just leave. ​And since you mentioned statistics, it would be really interesting to see how many users are created each month via evil IPs and don't log in again.

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July 21, 2021, 07:36:45 PM
 #24

Actual newbies will be put off by this while the ones who were actually looking to make alts will pay those few thousand satoshi (or just use fresh ip or smth), what's the point?

It also doesn't prevent them from using free proxies or VPN(s) to create other account(s) so they might actually evade Evil fee, in doing so they'll create useless abandoned accounts.

If a person actually is interested in having real constructive discussions concerning Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, he/she will pay the small fee. And if he/she can't afford the small fee, then there are other Bitcoin communities out there (e.g. Reddit/Twitter). It's not like they're totally shunned off out of Bitcoin if they can't get into Bitcointalk.

I don't think this would be a good decision to force Evil IP Fee on new users that are new to Bitcoin as a whole, let alone using the forum.
Even if they agree to pay the fee they'll end up paying more to miners.

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July 21, 2021, 08:22:19 PM
 #25

I can also confirm that the same thing happened to two of my friends, who were interested in crypto and I wanted to help them register on this forum and get involved in the crypto community.
If this happens again (or if you still know their usernames), please post in Remove Proxyban (evil fees) - get whitelisted for free so I (or someone else) can whitelist them:
2. Get someone to vouch for you
If an established member knows you personally, they can post your username in this topic for whitelisting.

Thank you very much for this kind offer LoyceV.
Unfortunately, the friends I barely persuaded to register on this forum and learn something about crypto, after this unpleasant experience with the evil fee completely gave up crypto and never came back.
I can no longer convince them to try again and learn more about crypto, for them the evil fee has remained a sufficient argument that crypto is a scam and nothing serious.
It happened a few years ago so I don't even remember their username anymore.
For the future I will have this offer of yours in mind but for these two friends it is too late.

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July 22, 2021, 02:29:08 AM
 #26

Actual newbies will be put off by this while the ones who were actually looking to make alts will pay those few thousand satoshi (or just use fresh ip or smth), what's the point?

It also doesn't prevent them from using free proxies or VPN(s) to create other account(s) so they might actually evade Evil fee, in doing so they'll create useless abandoned accounts.


Wait I think I'm missing something, how does that make abandoned accounts?

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July 22, 2021, 07:57:58 AM
Last edit: July 24, 2021, 09:14:10 AM by LoyceV
 #27

It also doesn't prevent them from using free proxies or VPN(s) to create other account(s) so they might actually evade Evil fee, in doing so they'll create useless abandoned accounts.
Wait I think I'm missing something, how does that make abandoned accounts?
If the newly created account is Proxy banned, they'll move to the next VPN and try again. But I don't think the abandoned accounts are much of a problem.

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July 24, 2021, 05:46:41 AM
 #28

I don't think that it's so simple like "if newbie is really interested, he will pay the fee". Let's say that someone started reading about bitcoin, likes forums in general, decided to register here and get welcomed by the message that says he done something wrong and has to pay fee, while he doesn't even own any bitcoin yet and visited bitcointalk for the first time. How many of those will bother buying their first btc just to register on some forum? I know that I wouldn't, I would just say fuck it and move elsewhere, and probably many others too.


Pretty much this. There were times I searched for some stuffs on Google, came across a high-ranking + relevant site, accessed it only to be blacklisted (country reason).

Even with the email provided, I couldn't be bothered and just moved elsewhere when I could get my answer in just a few seconds rather than spending much more time + money just to register and start posting. After all, Bitcointalk isn't the only place for such discussions when you have sites like Reddit.

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July 24, 2021, 03:20:25 PM
Merited by DdmrDdmr (2), Rikafip (1)
 #29

I don't think that it's so simple like "if newbie is really interested, he will pay the fee". Let's say that someone started reading about bitcoin, likes forums in general, decided to register here and get welcomed by the message that says he done something wrong and has to pay fee, while he doesn't even own any bitcoin yet and visited bitcointalk for the first time. How many of those will bother buying their first btc just to register on some forum? I know that I wouldn't, I would just say fuck it and move elsewhere, and probably many others too.


Pretty much this. There were times I searched for some stuffs on Google, came across a high-ranking + relevant site, accessed it only to be blacklisted (country reason).

Even with the email provided, I couldn't be bothered and just moved elsewhere when I could get my answer in just a few seconds rather than spending much more time + money just to register and start posting. After all, Bitcointalk isn't the only place for such discussions when you have sites like Reddit.

I think the decision to introduce an evil fee on this forum is wrong in many ways and I really hope theymos change that.
First of all, the basis for asking someone to pay an evil fee is the coincidence that some spammer used the same IP in the past.
Second, I don't think admins can punish someone in advance for something a new member didn't do and ask them to pay a fine.
Third, among the new members there are a lot of people who are new to crypto and don't know how to open a btc wallet, how to send someone a btc, they do not have bitcoin at all.
Last and most importantly, some new members will see the evil fee as the ultimate proof that crypto is a scam and will never return to the crypto.
This just happened to my two friends and I'm sincerely sorry that I even suggested them to register on this forum.
I will not repeat this mistake again and I don't intend to invite new friends to this forum until the rule on evil fee changes.
I'm sincerely sorry that theymos see no problem with the evil fee and the fact that many new and potential members have dropped out of this forum due to the rules of the evil fee, as most of them would not be spammers but responsible members of this forum. 

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July 24, 2021, 04:24:53 PM
 #30


I think the decision to introduce an evil fee on this forum is wrong in many ways and I really hope theymos change that.
First of all, the basis for asking someone to pay an evil fee is the coincidence that some spammer used the same IP in the past.
Second, I don't think admins can punish someone in advance for something a new member didn't do and ask them to pay a fine.
Third, among the new members there are a lot of people who are new to crypto and don't know how to open a btc wallet, how to send someone a btc, they do not have bitcoin at all.
Last and most importantly, some new members will see the evil fee as the ultimate proof that crypto is a scam and will never return to the crypto.
This just happened to my two friends and I'm sincerely sorry that I even suggested them to register on this forum.
I will not repeat this mistake again and I don't intend to invite new friends to this forum until the rule on evil fee changes.
I'm sincerely sorry that theymos see no problem with the evil fee and the fact that many new and potential members have dropped out of this forum due to the rules of the evil fee, as most of them would not be spammers but responsible members of this forum. 


You have a point. It does bring a bad impression experience-wise if I were to signup only to see that I have to "atone for someone else's sins"; it's akin to some paywall gone bad.

After all, IPs are dynamic and someone might be unfortunate enough to get assigned a bad one.

Quote
This just happened to my two friends and I'm sincerely sorry that I even suggested them to register on this forum.
I will not repeat this mistake again and I don't intend to invite new friends to this forum until the rule on evil fee changes.

Don't feel bad, it's no ones fault here that they couldn't sign up.

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July 24, 2021, 04:33:02 PM
 #31

Some VPN are even free on the playstore and apple stores.

I never really tried free VPN (I don't trust them) but I wouldn't be surprised if using free VPN get you this evil fee thing as well, as since it's free, it might be massively used by account farmers.



That was also a situation I found myself when I introduced two people to the forum. I had to pay the evil fees for them so as to encourage them. It was a situation I didn't want to get involved in because of the financial commitment. Sadly, I ended up being their only rescuer.
Good job man, they were lucky to have someone like you, willing to help. I'm curious now, are they still members of this forum?





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July 24, 2021, 04:37:27 PM
 #32

As I've mentioned before, the proxyban fee has practical reasons, but it's a system that cannot be efficient in controlling ban evaders which is the actual purpose. New members would normally not know their way around the forum or Bitcoin itself and may have stumbled on the site from somewhere else and rather than getting a welcome message which explains a bit about this forum, they get a ban message which they need to pay to overturn.
Ban evading is an offense on the forum and those caught will still be banned even though they have paid the fee, new members on the other hand are the ones who would either pay for something they know nothing about or not register at all.

Theymos recently increased the number of whitelisters on the forum and that's a very good step, making it easier for new member to access should be the next, with a newbie welcome message. So rather than getting a ban message, a new member would get a welcome message directing them on how to evade any issues they encounter on the forum.





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July 24, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
 #33

-snip-
That is the trade-off of the current system. There isn't any other feasible way to deter spammers, and removing it completely only serves to worsen the current spams we're seeing. Those affected by this are unfortunately just collateral damage.

As I've mentioned before, the proxyban fee has practical reasons, but it's a system that cannot be efficient in controlling ban evaders which is the actual purpose. New members would normally not know their way around the forum or Bitcoin itself and may have stumbled on the site from somewhere else and rather than getting a welcome message which explains a bit about this forum, they get a ban message which they need to pay to overturn.
Ban evading is an offense on the forum and those caught will still be banned even though they have paid the fee, new members on the other hand are the ones who would either pay for something they know nothing about or not register at all.
The actual purpose is mainly to control spammers, instead of those seeking to evade bans, IMO. There was a huge influx of spam SEOs at the start of the year, with them scraping other posts to try to blend it. Removing the barrier of entry for those IP ranges only serves to increase the spam on the forum and other than monetary disincentives, I don't think there would be a better way to reduce those spams. If you remove the fees completely, you'll most likely start to either see hoards of account farmers or bots every now and then and degrading the experience for everyone.

Most users probably won't care about using the forum, once they see that they have to pay a fee to use it. No matter how much you explain to them, they would probably just be put off by having to pay a fee just to post.

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July 24, 2021, 04:58:18 PM
 #34

The actual purpose is mainly to control spammers, instead of those seeking to evade bans, IMO. There was a huge influx of spam SEOs at the start of the year, with them scraping other posts to try to blend it. Removing the barrier of entry for those IP ranges only serves to increase the spam on the forum and other than monetary disincentives
Units of evil attached to an IP increases as more members using that IP gets banned, so it's technically a fee to prevent these banned users from creating new accounts on the forum, by extension this would discourage spamming as users get banned for spamming and it would prevent them from opening new accounts to continue spreading spam.
Actually, the way I see it; the system was created to prevent any activity which would lead to a ban, such as spam (message or pm), malware etct as those banned accounts are deterred from registering again.





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July 24, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
 #35

I never really tried free VPN (I don't trust them) but I wouldn't be surprised if using free VPN get you this evil fee thing as well, as since it's free, it might be massively used by account farmers.
These friends of mine weren't people who had vast knowledge of the internet and didn't know what a VPN was. In fact, VPN became popular in Nigeria because of the Twitter ban that happened in the country by the federal government not Nigeria a few months ago. Before then not so many people knew what a VPN meant.


I'm curious now, are they still members of this forum?
Sadly, both left after a while. They said they couldn't understand much of the discussions that went on here because of the terminologies used in most posts. My pleas for them to continue and persevere didn't yield any results so I let them be. I don't think they even made it to Jnr rank. I count their temporary departure as loss to them because they don't recognize what they missed.

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July 24, 2021, 05:17:15 PM
 #36


These friends of mine weren't people who had vast knowledge of the internet and didn't know what a VPN was. In fact, VPN became popular in Nigeria because of the Twitter ban that happened in the country by the federal government not Nigeria a few months ago. Before then not so many people knew what a VPN meant.


That's the silver lining of the Streisand effect. Whenever the government plans to ban this and that, more people would find alternate ways to bypass them.

Quote
My pleas for them to continue and persevere didn't yield any results so I let them be.

In the end, it's the individuals choice on whether he/ she would want to try or not. You did your best. There would always be future opportunities waiting for you once you meet new people.

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July 24, 2021, 08:51:58 PM
 #37

Actual newbies will be put off by this while the ones who were actually looking to make alts will pay those few thousand satoshi (or just use fresh ip or smth), what's the point?

It also doesn't prevent them from using free proxies or VPN(s) to create other account(s) so they might actually evade Evil fee, in doing so they'll create useless abandoned accounts.


Wait I think I'm missing something, how does that make abandoned accounts?

There are hundreds of new accounts created every day. Most of them are abandoned, meaning they never log in to the forum again. I'm not sure exactly why this is the case, but I can assume the evil fee has some bearing on it.

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July 25, 2021, 06:38:52 AM
 #38

Why did the complaint escalate recently, even though the percentage of those who use the site is not increasing? The problem will increase by the end of the year if the price of Bitcoin increases.
The problem lies in using VPN, which often gets a ban, but using a clean real ISPs IP will not lead to bans in most cases. Most beginners do not use Tor.

On the other hand, solving problems with fees isn't perfect.

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ranochigo
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July 25, 2021, 06:47:47 AM
 #39

Why did the complaint escalate recently, even though the percentage of those who use the site is not increasing? The problem will increase by the end of the year if the price of Bitcoin increases.
The problem lies in using VPN, which often gets a ban, but using a clean real ISPs IP will not lead to bans in most cases. Most beginners do not use Tor.

On the other hand, solving problems with fees isn't perfect.
Which is also a problem. Certain users prefer to have some sort of anonymity when browsing the internet, moreso for Bitcoin related sites. The problem is prevalent in both the IP ranges allocated to regions which is infested with spammers or just Tor exit nodes. From the top of my head, I've seen a few threads where certain users has had difficulties registering without triggering it even with IPs allocated by their ISPs. Neither of which is good and I also don't believe that there would be a better idea than enforcing some sort of payment to stop spams like these.

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July 25, 2021, 07:42:09 AM
 #40

Why did the complaint escalate recently, even though the percentage of those who use the site is not increasing? The problem will increase by the end of the year if the price of Bitcoin increases.
I'm pretty sure the price of "evil" is adjusted when Bitcoin goes up or down in price, just like the Copper Membership.

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