On Cuba and economy

[Kittygalore]

~

probably the first time someone has mentioned this in a topic about Cuba's political/economic affairs. You're onto something my friend        /s

It's a no brainer solution and many esteemed people in the political and economic circles thinks about this, I have learned of this idea because I watched a video where the taxi drivers in Cuba gets paid more than the doctors because taxi drivers are one of the few allowed businesses that isn't controlled by the state.

[1714628102]

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[Poker Player]

iraq being an oil rich nation

If you invade Iraq, you can "liberate" lots of oil. If you invade Cuba, all you can liberate is poor people.
Obviously this is a bit of simplification, and ignores the history of Cuban links to the USSR... but oil reserves are a powerful motivator.

I think we agreed in a previous thread that the Iraq war was fought primarily for oil. But now I don't quite buy the argument, because aside from you saying you are oversimplifying, what is also not explained is why Venezuela has not been invaded yet, if it has the largest oil reserves in the world. This time they did not even have to invent weapons of mass destruction, simply with the exodus of millions of Venezuelans they could have claimed that a genocide was being committed and that they were intervening "humanely", in order to take over the exploitation of the oil.

[jostorres]

That's because everything is state owned and privatisation is a problem there because if you don't abide to the communist regime, your business would be dismantled or worse taken over by the state, I think that the lack of investor foreign and local is what's causing the bad economy of Cuba. Hopefully they can get out of this dictatorship because these people deserve freedom.

That’s the problem have to face when they are living in a communist country. In countries like this you don’t have any say, because those in power are the ones that are controlling everything, and when you stand against them or say anything bad about them, they will come for you and take everything you have. In a time like this, it still surprises me that there are countries that are still under communist leadership.

People are meant to be free and have the right to speak up for whatever they think is right or wrong and not get suppressed by those in power. I do hope they find a way out of such leadership. This is the fate of some countries around the world right now.

[Gozie51]

The embargo won't be the reason for the Cuban protest because it has been long that was happening. I rather think that Cuba just like Libya and some African countries are facing authoritarian and dictatorship government , this is the problem. When a government becomes Lord not to listen to people or give them some freedom, you expect outburst from the public one day. A Communist that tend to control everything and makes more effort to control the air that you breath is Doom to fall someday because global civilization is sweeping through every continent and nation. So you expect unrest often from such system.

[Sterbens]

I think the protests is because of the pandemic not being able to resolved or being under control by the current regime. Plus another reason is that people are probably sick and tired of the current regime because they haven't made the lives of their countrymen easier which proves that communism doesn't work in practice.

The communist government system is good, it has brought China's economy to the fore, but not all communism systems can be applied in other countries, for reasons of nationality and ideology that have been around for a long time. Because basically, communism has gone too far for the democratic and socialist circles in Cuba. So it would be very unsuitable for Cuba to adopt it.

[izsara]

I think if we look at the current conditions, both of them are actually a strong reason because if you look at the statistics behind Cuba now experiencing the worst economic crisis for the last 30 years, on the other hand the embargo from the USA could also be the reason behind this demonstration because I once saw it on a news show at the time. Miguel Diaz-Canel frankly accused the USA of the riots that had occurred in Cuba even though the statement was opposed by the US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, who stated that the Cuban government made a big mistake if it blamed his country for the protests. According to Blinken, the demonstration was caused by the local government's mistakes in managing the economy and the Covid-19 pandemic.
consciously or not this is true.
regardless of which one is right now, it is the people who are there who are affected. and from here we can see that politics is cruel

[Gyfts]

I think the latest revolt is fueled by food shortages and lack of medical support to treat COVID infection.

Many cubans could be dying from starvation or COVID. If they're already suffering dying, I guess they don't have a whole lot to lose at this point?

One interesting point here is americans were willing to travel to the other side of the planet to "liberate" iraq from an authoritarian dictator. While seeming unable to muster any enthusiasm to criticize cuban autocrats in their own backyard. I've only seen a few random florida mayors suggest lending aid to cubans and opposing the oppression there should be actual things.

It's mostly just against communism. These people aren't in the streets chanting about food or health supplies, they're directly protesting against government, meanwhile they get beaten into submission by government police. Vaccines and food are ancillary problems caused by communism. Biden administration has a tough time condemning communist directly so they'll blame these Cuban protests on social issues and not governmental issues.

[Kong Hey Pakboy]

I think the protests is because of the pandemic not being able to resolved or being under control by the current regime. Plus another reason is that people are probably sick and tired of the current regime because they haven't made the lives of their countrymen easier which proves that communism doesn't work in practice.

Communism/Socialism sounds really nice in theory. But it can never be put in to practice. In case of Cuba, since it is a socialist country ideally there should be zero unemployment, and medical care/education available to everyone. But that is not the case. Medical care is free, but what is the point when there are not enough doctors? Since the government has run low on Forex, they have sent Cuban doctors to other Latin American countries, in order to earn forex revenue. And now coming to the jobs, in theory there is no unemployment. But the average average monthly salary is around $25 (as of 2016). 

It can work but only if we were to surrender the desire for power and the need to step on another person. I mean, if you look at it, that's the reason why communism fails, the leaders that are instilled are just a replacement and not a reformation of the old and ruthless regime before that. I think that a certain level of socialism combined with capitalism can work because if you look at it. I mean look at countries with free healthcare and colleges.

[jaysabi]

Comments like that show how unfamiliar you are with American history. America has been attempting to undermine the autocrats in power in Cuba since the 1960s certainly, and possibly before. The embargo is part of that effort (as misplaced as it is) and the interventions have included more active means like training resistance fighters or even invading the island (Bay of Pigs). Cuba always has the backing of Russia though, so you couldn’t just go in and “liberate” the people from the government. But as far as criticizing the autocrats? Do a google search man!

Cuba's present day military is far weaker than iraq's was. Amassing guns and weapons requires capital. iraq being an oil rich nation gives it money to burn. They can buy tanks, jets and scud missiles. What natural resources does cuba have to exchange for military hardware? Aside from a very small tourism industry.

Cuba relies on the charity of communist regimes around the world to give it free stuff. And the amount of free stuff they have is far less than the military power iraq had when the united states invaded them both times.

The united states could destroy cuba's military easily. Its hard to define a reason, why that hasn't happened. Politics definitely factor in to it. Sanctions by themselves usually do not topple rogue states. There are other motives, consequences and side effects of sanctions. Which are well documented and known. But I suspect, you do not know them.

Lol, tell me more what I don't know about Cuba.  My concentration in college was cold war foreign policy. You're the same guy that's always posting conspiracy theories, so I don't know why I'd expect you to have a rational view of Cuba.  Apparently in your world, just because the US could crush a military they should?  Russia is still a huge backer of Cuba.  Cuba's economy is tied more closely to Russia than any other nation because Russia is Cuba's largest creditor, so any military intervention by America today would be almost as much of a threat to Russian interests as it would have been during the Cold War.  Cuba is still Russia's foil in the western hemisphere exactly because it's the only place Russia can support a destabilizing presence near America, which America has been doing to Russia consistently since the end of WWII.  Thinking this is just about Cuba alone is myopic and misses the larger foreign policy implications, but I've gathered that grasping a rational larger picture isn't quite your thing, as evidenced by all the posts from you tinged with conspiracy blather.

[zanezane]

The embargo won't be the reason for the Cuban protest because it has been long that was happening. I rather think that Cuba just like Libya and some African countries are facing authoritarian and dictatorship government , this is the problem. When a government becomes Lord not to listen to people or give them some freedom, you expect outburst from the public one day. A Communist that tend to control everything and makes more effort to control the air that you breath is Doom to fall someday because global civilization is sweeping through every continent and nation. So you expect unrest often from such system.

I agree with this one, it's the authoritarian government that is the problem but I also like to add that it's also the fault of the people for having that kind of government because they're the one that puts those people in place or they didn't resist when these corrupt government instilled themselves as leaders.

[Gozie51]

The embargo won't be the reason for the Cuban protest because it has been long that was happening. I rather think that Cuba just like Libya and some African countries are facing authoritarian and dictatorship government , this is the problem. When a government becomes Lord not to listen to people or give them some freedom, you expect outburst from the public one day. A Communist that tend to control everything and makes more effort to control the air that you breath is Doom to fall someday because global civilization is sweeping through every continent and nation. So you expect unrest often from such system.

I agree with this one, it's the authoritarian government that is the problem but I also like to add that it's also the fault of the people for having that kind of government because they're the one that puts those people in place or they didn't resist when these corrupt government instilled themselves as leaders.

A corrupt system or government has no regard for humanity or human lives. If you say the fault is with the people for not protesting against bad government or voting them in, it may also shock you that people's votes don't in such system and the government would do everything to shut people's voice down including the use of military to fire on unarmed and innocent people on peaceful protest.

[DrBeer]

....

Cuba and Venezuela are two different stories and two different problems.
Venezuela - had a systemic problem even before Maduro. The problem is in the "monopolization" of filling the budget, exclusively by selling oil. This is the economy of a raw materials appendage, the economy is very fragile, which, with any negative trend in the oil market, collapses the country's economy. For example, even such a large country as the USSR, at one time, collapsed precisely for this reason - the orientation towards the sale of resources led to the fact that the country was gone. Now a similar thing is happening with the economy of the Russian Federation. And Maduro is stupidity and inability to manage, which further exacerbated the situation.

Cuba is a very different option. This is a revolution, this is "the building of socialism, with the help of the USSR, as a path to communism" and, of course, "the answer to imperialism." As a result, it turned out as expected - a totalitarian regime, total impoverishment of the population, lack of rights and freedoms. In one word, "the victory of socialism in the Soviet way." In recent years, Cubans have been able to watch what is really happening in the world. And they are well aware that they are essentially kept like animals in a bad zoo! And probably they have a sense of their own dignity, a desire to live like a PEOPLE.

[Fortify]

On one side, you have an authoritarian regime in Cuba, which also replaced a previously authoritarian dictatorship (Batista). The economy of the country is struggling, their people lack the fundamental freedoms and the regime can only claim that they all have a home, a job and the right to study. In the old days, medicine was also top class but that finished when US strengthened the embargo.

Some people would be surprised to know that Cuba developed their own vaccine for COVID. On the other side, you got the US embargo - lasting decades and varying on intensity - a can of worms that no president of USA dares to kick for the electoral backslash.

Are Cuba protests due to the embargo or due to the government?

An on crypto, would bitcoin play actually in favour of the government, by allowing purchases anonymously or to possible insurgents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

I think it's a bit misleading and unfair to say that no president has tried to ease the relationship with Cuba - great strides were made by Obama and some elements of the embargo were dropped, only to be reimposed by Trump.. because he felt like it. It's rather silly and wasteful, with all the support that America gives to countries with much worse records than Cuba, that this has persisted for so long. It's not even like Cuba is particularly close to Russia, like it used to be under the USSR because of common "communist" traits. While of course the leadership have many faults, it is amazing that the people have been so resilient and resourceful over the years.

[verita1]

In Cuba the protests are due to a cry for freedom. They want a change of government system. It is enough to see the images of their humble houses, anyone would be tired of seeing the years go by with just a little money in their pocket to buy their food.
If we take a look at the evidence on social media of Cubans, we can be equanimous in our thinking and give reason to the country of Cuba that struggles to survive extreme poverty.
Take a look at #SOSCuba and check out the images and videos that people post demonstrating a call for help.

User on Twitter talks about three days without water, which is perhaps a problem that he has seen continuously in his entire life.

https://twitter.com/miguelqbano_/status/1418969522434891778?s=19

User on Twitter that shows what Cuba was like before the arrival of the dictatorship.

https://twitter.com/Eliabd6308/status/1418569516087402498?s=19

[Poker Player]

In Cuba the protests are due to a cry for freedom.

That's what I've said before. You live in Venezuela, right?

Those I see praising the Cuban regime I would send to spend a little time there, but not with the politicians there, who live very well, but with the common people. They were going to get a taste of the good life there.

Above I was asking something else, too. Cnut237 was saying that the US has not intervened in Cuba because it has no oil. And this is something I find hard to believe because if oil were the reason they would have intervened in Venezuela many years ago.

The question was for Cnut237 but I am interested in the opinion of anyone else as well.

[jaysabi]

In Cuba the protests are due to a cry for freedom.

That's what I've said before. You live in Venezuela, right?

Those I see praising the Cuban regime I would send to spend a little time there, but not with the politicians there, who live very well, but with the common people. They were going to get a taste of the good life there.

Above I was asking something else, too. Cnut237 was saying that the US has not intervened in Cuba because it has no oil. And this is something I find hard to believe because if oil were the reason they would have intervened in Venezuela many years ago.

The question was for Cnut237 but I am interested in the opinion of anyone else as well.

Well, the US has had a lot of interventions in Venezuela, just not always militarily.  The US continues to put sanctions on the country and also was recognized an opposition politician as the rightful leader of the country after the last election.  Both of these are interventions aimed to regime change, just not a military intervention.  The US has had repeated interventions in Cuba of the same nature, the sanctions are aimed at forcing Cuba to open up the government and become more democratic.  In that case, it's obviously not about oil because there is none.

[electronicash]

In Cuba the protests are due to a cry for freedom.

That's what I've said before. You live in Venezuela, right?

Those I see praising the Cuban regime I would send to spend a little time there, but not with the politicians there, who live very well, but with the common people. They were going to get a taste of the good life there.

Above I was asking something else, too. Cnut237 was saying that the US has not intervened in Cuba because it has no oil. And this is something I find hard to believe because if oil were the reason they would have intervened in Venezuela many years ago.

The question was for Cnut237 but I am interested in the opinion of anyone else as well.

Well, the US has had a lot of interventions in Venezuela, just not always militarily.  The US continues to put sanctions on the country and also was recognized an opposition politician as the rightful leader of the country after the last election.  Both of these are interventions aimed to regime change, just not a military intervention.  The US has had repeated interventions in Cuba of the same nature, the sanctions are aimed at forcing Cuba to open up the government and become more democratic.  In that case, it's obviously not about oil because there is none.

those sanctions jeopardized their freedom.

authoritarian leaders in Latin American countries don't sound authoritarian when they are sanctioned. if they really have the guts, they should trade elsewhere, they are already sanctioned, nothing to lose already. they should be trading and open their country to all businesses more often and the vast region is full of resources, literally untouched.

[amishmanish]

The communist government system is good, it has brought China's economy to the fore, but not all communism systems can be applied in other countries, for reasons of nationality and ideology that have been around for a long time. Because basically, communism has gone too far for the democratic and socialist circles in Cuba. So it would be very unsuitable for Cuba to adopt it.

Whether you call it communist or socialist, this whole philosophy is shit. State ownership of the means of production has always, always led to people dying in famines. Millions of people died in China too. They are just very good in whitewashing and hiding the problems within their country. The progress of China isn't due to communist policies but by adoption of the free market.

When it comes to basic human freedoms and the importance of individual dignity, China is as much of a shithole as any of these other impoverished countries. There has been a trend of the "lying flat" protests within China. I guess just throwing hands up in the air and refusing to live out lives in a hierarchy, working for overlords is one form of protest that even the Chinese can do. So anybody taking the example of China as a "success of communism" is mistaken. Communism doesn't suck-ceeds. It only sucks. Lifeblood of the people and the freedom of their hearts. This is why it is commendable that the Cubans have been able to protest. God only knows what there authoritarian rulers would have done to them if their was no embargo stopping them from having the means for quick and brutal suppression.

Of course, China has that, enabled by the past decades' preference for economics over ideology. So you won't ever see protests there. Or if you do, then they'll go the Hong Kong or the poor Jack Ma way.

[Lucius]

In the old days, medicine was also top class but that finished when US strengthened the embargo.

I guess Cuba has not waned in terms of medicine and healthcare. I'd like to believe that despite the country's ailing economy, it still is worthy of praises in terms of healthcare. It's still their strength until today. Cuba is still one of the healthiest countries in the world.

I remembered when Italy was the epicenter of COVID-19 in Europe and international aids were measly. If I'm not mistaken, Cuba was one of the first countries to extend help. The country sent a team of medical experts. It must have meant a lot.

According to what can be found online, medicine in Cuba is certainly not at the level of the Western world in terms of technology - but everyone has access to health care, and their people are still treated as living beings, not as those who can or cannot pay for health care. It is truly amazing that Italy receives help in its most difficult moments from Cuba, while some major democracies cannot agree on whether there is a danger of the virus at all or not.

A detailed insight into Cuban healthcare from the perspective of the US delegation - a little paradoxical that they are coming to see the results of their sanctions...

https://www.aacp.org/article/behind-cubas-healthcare-curtain

[Vishnu.Reang]

Well, the US has had a lot of interventions in Venezuela, just not always militarily.  The US continues to put sanctions on the country and also was recognized an opposition politician as the rightful leader of the country after the last election.  Both of these are interventions aimed to regime change, just not a military intervention.  The US has had repeated interventions in Cuba of the same nature, the sanctions are aimed at forcing Cuba to open up the government and become more democratic.  In that case, it's obviously not about oil because there is none.

The Cuban American community is politically very important and most of them are descendant from the elite class who had to flee Cuba when Fidel Castro seized power from Fulgencio Batista. They support the US sanctions, because these people lost all of their property and business when Castro implemented nationalization in 1959. Barack Obama tried to remove some of the embargoes and that cost the Democrats the state of Florida in 2016 (and probably again in 2020). If Biden removes the sanctions, then the Dems can say good bye to Florida for the next 50 years.