Can bitcoin exist without fiat

[Newlifebtc]

intersting question that i also curious about this
but if you guys said Yes bitcoin can exist without fiat how bitcoin have value i think right now bitcoin have value because people trust it and buy it with fiat its like bitcoin being underlayed by fiat right


and yes some merchant that accept bitcoin on average exchange instantly to fiat

Exactly you have speaking my mind, some person's says bitcoin is different from fiat, yes i believe that point but without fiat bitcoin can't standby.

[nacamarini]

Maybe crypto make total replace in fiat market

[witcher_sense]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Both bitcoin and fiat are the instruments with which people can measure the value of the products they would like to obtain. In the case of bitcoin, however, you can't correctly estimate what the "real" price of goods is because bitcoin hasn't yet been adopted by and spread enough amongst people. Currently, fiat is used as a frame of reference to calculate the value of bitcoin. But if for some reason, fiat is no longer in existence, people can readily start to use bitcoin as a common unit of account. Bitcoin is highly divisible, which makes it an effective means of satisfying an economy of any scale. So, what is the main difference between these two? Both serve for facilitating exchanges, measurement of value, but bitcoin is more honest because the government can't control it and change it.

[dkbit98]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Fiat currencies are just a failed experiment in it's final years of existence, and before fiat people used gold, silver and other shiny precious metals that existed just fine alone.
Then some people who think they are smart, decided to steal all gold and precious metal from people and replace it with IOU paper, than they removed gold backing and opened one big can of worms.
It is like the all system created was created for some elite criminals, same way like taxes are becoming higher to the point when even air will be taxed.
Than came Bitcoin, that can function with or without fiat currencies, and I would not consider that as sibling to fiat system.
Some people even did experiments living only from Bitcoin for some time, and they could survive just fine, there are even communities trying to be only crypto and tax-free but it seems that government parasites don't like that
If enough people decides to use only Bitcoin, there is nothing they can do to prevent this - Vires In Numeris.

[n0nce]

So, in such a nation it does work without 'thinking in $ and exchanging for $ all the time' right?
Because these kinds of nations start to actually be a reality, with El Salvador being the first in the next days, for example.

We'll see how this goes and I hope Bitcoin starts being seen as a more significant currency than just a magic internet one. Although, you'll find me in disagreement with deflationary currencies in todays' societies.

I agree, I have the same hope as well!
To be totally honest, I have to read up on the exact arguments for inflation, but I heard before that it's kind of needed, though I intuitively don't see why that should be the case. But I admit my knowledge of finance is not as good as the one of technology, which is my main field

Yeah that's why I ask how a government issued 'cryptocurrency' should in any way be better than the € and $ that they give us now. Government issued will mean they'll print / generate coins as they need (inflate it) so having a government crypto will have 0 benefit for anyone wanting to prevent losses through inflation.

But, I never said that governments should make their own crypto. I just said that if you want to save up, you can buy gold, Bitcoin, etc. There's no reason to keep a currency whose inflation can be fluctuated at any moment.

Oh right, sorry, it was someone before you that said they thought there will be 'government cryptos' etc., I agree fiat is not suited for savings, but somehow most people do save up straight cash either at home or in the bank account, which is obviously financially terrible esp. when saving up for a long time.

So, yeah, I still don't see a real, technological argument how 'Bitcoin needs Fiat to work'. I can give you an item, you give me some Satoshis, no USD were used or referenced.

Yes, no USD references directly, but indirectly you'll have to calculate the exchange rate of BTC/USD to buy or sell a product in BTC.

I am talking about a society where people work for BTC and pay in BTC - similar to how in Europe, they work for € and pay in €, so the exchange rate EUR / USD is irrelevant in most day to day scenarios. What it ultimately comes down to (in my opinion) is time: The time one works for a certain amount of currency. So if they have a direct feel for how much work results in a certain amount of BTC (since they're paid in BTC) it will be much more intuitive and not needed to calculate exchange rates.

[n0nce]

intersting question that i also curious about this
but if you guys said Yes bitcoin can exist without fiat how bitcoin have value i think right now bitcoin have value because people trust it and buy it with fiat its like bitcoin being underlayed by fiat right


and yes some merchant that accept bitcoin on average exchange instantly to fiat

Exactly you have speaking my mind, some person's says bitcoin is different from fiat, yes i believe that point but without fiat bitcoin can't standby.

What is your argument on why BTC can't stand without fiat?
Do you mean in the current time where the economy is based on USD, EUR, GBP, etc., so people calculate exchange rate and / or need to exchange their fiat funds to BTC to pay with Bitcoin or do you think there are essential technological limits to Bitcoin that don't allow it to work as a standalone currency?

While we have heard many interesting arguments from various people so far, I still only heard your opinion and beliefs but no real argument.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But I admit my knowledge of finance is not as good as the one of technology, which is my main field

Both of them are very interesting. 

Oh right, sorry, it was someone before you that said they thought there will be 'government cryptos' etc., I agree fiat is not suited for savings, but somehow most people do save up straight cash either at home or in the bank account, which is obviously financially terrible esp. when saving up for a long time.

Anyone who complains their cash-savings have no longer the same purchasing power is ignorant the least. There has to be inflation, but not to over-do it. Steady inflation is economically healthy. Hyperinflation and deflation are two extremities. (Although Bitcoin isn't exactly deflationary; its inflation is just resistant to any authorities)

I am talking about a society where people work for BTC and pay in BTC

That's what I was mainly pointing to. I can't imagine of a society where there aren't fiat currencies, but only Bitcoin. I find it very problematic.

[n0nce]

But I admit my knowledge of finance is not as good as the one of technology, which is my main field

Both of them are very interesting.  

I agree

Oh right, sorry, it was someone before you that said they thought there will be 'government cryptos' etc., I agree fiat is not suited for savings, but somehow most people do save up straight cash either at home or in the bank account, which is obviously financially terrible esp. when saving up for a long time.

Anyone who complains their cash-savings have no longer the same purchasing power is ignorant the least. There has to be inflation, but not to over-do it. Steady inflation is economically healthy. Hyperinflation and deflation are two extremities. (Although Bitcoin isn't exactly deflationary; its inflation is just resistant to any authorities)

I don't know if they're all ignorant, or if it's all this 'investing is so risky, just save up your (safe) fiat money' kind of narrative that is prevalent in many parts of the world. But yeah many people seem to agree with you that inflation is needed for the economy; just my ignorance as of why that is the case.

I am talking about a society where people work for BTC and pay in BTC

That's what I was mainly pointing to. I can't imagine of a society where there aren't fiat currencies, but only Bitcoin. I find it very problematic.

Interesting, I would ask you why, but I think that's outside the scope of this thread and the information should most probably be out there, so I have to do more reading up on this first beofre asking more questions

[bakasabo]

It can exist without fiat when people find another way how to measure Bitcoin value. So far it is bind to us dollar. If we tell Bitcoin value in teslas and it will be a prime exchange asset, then fiat is no longer needed. But that scenario wont happen. Take gold for example - still its value is told in exchange to fiat. And to me Bitcoin equals gold.

[Abike007]

For the time being, no cryptocurrency has effectively overtaken fiat in any part of the world. In the end, it may be payment apps like SPEDN which most dramatically open up cryptocurrency payments to real-world applications.

[Myleschetty]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?

The difference between fiat current and Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is decentralized digital money while fiat is backed by the government ad can be held.
Bitcoin may exist and may not without the existence of fiat because people will always search for a perfect alternative and it the search for an alternative when the government was not able to provide a proper solution to inflation is what led to the birth of Bitcoin.

after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters

Yes, base on Satoshi's opinion when he introduced Bitcoin. Besides, fiat carries/represent the traditional symbol of every country so the government won't want crypto to dethrone fiat.

[decodx]

It can exist without fiat when people find another way how to measure Bitcoin value. So far it is bind to us dollar. If we tell Bitcoin value in teslas and it will be a prime exchange asset, then fiat is no longer needed. But that scenario wont happen. Take gold for example - still its value is told in exchange to fiat. And to me Bitcoin equals gold.

That is a wrong conclusion. How do you measure the value of fiat currencies, say dollars?

[GeorgeJohn]

Actually bitcoin can exist without because no transaction fiat currency can as well do and bitcoin can't do that, without purchasing of local needs with fiat because i strongly believe that so many person's is still ignorant of bitcoin but in exception of that bitcoin can be use to afford anything fiat can afford, in terms of exchanges of fiat to Good's, we can equally exchanges bitcoin without converting to fiat to car, or any other thing we really wants.

[Darker45]

Bitcoin is definitely not like physical money. It is digital money. Bitcoin is all that fiat is not. So I don't quite agree that the two work like brothers and sisters, although I should also admit that many people nowadays are appreciating Bitcoin not because of Bitcoin itself but because its native currency which is also called Bitcoin has a very high price in fiat. That's something that makes Bitcoin more attractive. However, Bitcoin could function very well without fiat. It was not designed to only function hand in hand with fiat.

[Rruchi man]

so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Considering the accessibility of cryptocurrency to some, i can say cryptocurrency is not completely accessible to all. Take for instance, the aged who do not care to learn anything new and those most importantly without vision who cannot make use of a digital cryptocurrency wallet and their only option for a physical transaction is fiat currency that they can touch. Because bitcoin and other cryptocurrency developer's still have issues like this unsolved, bitcoin cannot exist without the traditional fiat.

[n0nce]

most importantly without vision who cannot make use of a digital cryptocurrency wallet and their only option for a physical transaction is fiat currency that they can touch

Hey, this is a great point for Bitcoin in my opinion!
As far as I know, it is much easier for a blind person to use a mobile Bitcoin wallet to pay somewhere than to use cash.

They are able to use smartphones very well due to all the 'Accessibility' features (especially on iOS) while paper cash is hard to distinguish just based on feel. Like, what is a 50$ note, and what is a 20$ etc.

As far as I know though, the preferred method for most is to just use a credit card to swipe over the reader. Since there are Bitcoin credit cards, this would work with BTC as well!

[The Cryptovator]

OP needs little research about Bitcoin technology IMO. Then you will realize quickly if that kind of question comes to your mind. In the current situation, Bitcoin existence on the Blockchain. As we know Bitcoin Blockchain is decentralized which has stored into a computer network called a node. Since each node has a copy of the whole Bitcoin Blockchain so Bitcoin will exist forever till the existence of the internet. So we can say technically Bitcoin will exist forever if the internet exists in the world. It doesn't matter either fiat exists or not.

Now come to the point, fiat has been using to exchange Bitcoin or to determine the value of Bitcoin. If fiat does not exist anymore then something else would be used to evaluate the value of Bitcoin. There is a possibility if fiat no exist then Bitcoin will use more widely although it's quite impossible to disable fiat worldwide. Even there will not be paper money, but definitely there will be a few alternative centralized digital currencies.

[Pinkjet]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Fiat currencies are just a failed experiment in it's final years of existence, and before fiat people used gold, silver and other shiny precious metals that existed just fine alone.
Then some people who think they are smart, decided to steal all gold and precious metal from people and replace it with IOU paper, than they removed gold backing and opened one big can of worms.
It is like the all system created was created for some elite criminals, same way like taxes are becoming higher to the point when even air will be taxed.
Than came Bitcoin, that can function with or without fiat currencies, and I would not consider that as sibling to fiat system.
Some people even did experiments living only from Bitcoin for some time, and they could survive just fine, there are even communities trying to be only crypto and tax-free but it seems that government parasites don't like that
If enough people decides to use only Bitcoin, there is nothing they can do to prevent this - Vires In Numeris.

Inasmuch as I agree with you on certain salient points you have made, I want you to clarify some question which I think will better our understanding of this topic:
1. Without fiat currency, how do you measure the value of Bitcoin?
2. I understand that many crypto enthusiasts are looking forward to mainstream adoption of cryptocurrency. Do you think that when that day comes, countries will jettison their currency complete and adopt Bitcoin?

When you clarify this, I feel we will be getting a clearer understanding of the place of both cryptocurrency and fiat currency.

[Gosgosking]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Not really because we mostly buy Bitcoin with fiat. Since fiat is the currency we use in obtaining goods and services. Bitcoin can't really work without it . Fiat and Bitcoin will work in hand to hand

[n0nce]

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.

Not really because we mostly buy Bitcoin with fiat. Since fiat is the currency we use in obtaining goods and services. Bitcoin can't really work without it . Fiat and Bitcoin will work in hand to hand

That's not really correct. You can easily earn Bitcoin and spend it, without ever using an exchange.

Also the way that 'we value Bitcoin in fiat' is by taking numbers of recent Bitcoin sales of exchanges. If there was no fiat to trade Bitcoin with, people would trade Bitcoin against other stuff and that way the value could also be determined.

I agree that right now "fiat and bitcoin work hand in hand" but not sure it will always stay this way. It's certainly possible (from the Bitcoin side at least) to be independent from fiat - which was the original question.