El Salvador Bitcoin payment option

[Charles-Tim]

El Salvador Bitcoin payment option mandatory but people can decide to accept fiat

What some people do not like about El Salvadorian government move is that they made bitcoin a legal tender, that it should have just been a legal form of payment instead of making it a legal tender. In El Salvador, anything government make a legal tender can be used as payment of goods and services while marchants and other dealers must accept it as a form of payment. But when I read news today, I later knew that Bitcoin payment is mandatory but yet optional, the payment can be in Bitcoin but marchants can decide to either accept Bitcoin or fiat, the transaction will be processed automatically in accordance to what chooses by the recipient.

https://m.elsalvador.com/noticias/negocios/bitcoin-criptomonedas/876042/2021/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=deportes%20&utm_campaign=organico&fbclid=undefined

Government: it will be mandatory to receive Bitcoin and businesses are exposed to infractions of consumer law
According to the legal advisor to the presidency, Javier Argueta, it will also be mandatory to have the virtual wallet and once it is, the business is obliged to receive the cryptocurrency as a form of payment.

“You, having the electronic wallet, must accept the transaction.  The ‘shall’ is the transaction obligation… you are required to have the electronic wallet.  What is mandatory is the transaction, ”said Argueta, explaining the validity of the Bitcoin Law, which formally begins as of this September 7.

 The journalist Federico Zeledón asked him about the virtual wallet: _For the sake of clarity, then, what I am obliged to do is to have the electronic wallet?  To which Argueta replied: "To have the electronic wallet," he affirmed, to later explain that with it the costs are negligible and that the state's Chivo Wallet wallet is free.

Later he said that when making the transaction, then the businessman will be able to decide whether to accept his payment in Bitcoin or in dollars and again, in a play on words, he gave an example: “If I buy you 1,000 shirts that cost $ 200 and I'm going to pay you in Bitcoin, you have the wallet, but in the transaction, when you do it, you have the will to receive Bitcoin or dollars, that is why it is voluntary, "he said.

 And once the wallet is downloaded, the merchant is obliged to make the transaction: "If you acquire that wallet, you can make the transaction," Argueta said. According to Argueta, all businesses are obliged to make the transaction in Bitcoin and despite the fact that neither the law nor the regulations clearly state it, if the business does not accept it, it is exposed to referrals of infractions to the Consumer Protection Law.

In my opinion, I think this is a welcome development, it can be said that El Salvadorian government are not making Bitcoin payment mandatory (although mandatory) even as it is a legal tender because the payment can be in Bitcoin while the receiver can choose to receive it in fiat and processed automatically.

[1714028853]

1714028853

[1714028853]

1714028853

[1714028853]

1714028853

[KaliLinux]

El Salvador Bitcoin payment option mandatory but customers can decide to accept fiat

What some people do not like about El Salvadorian government move is that they made bitcoin a legal tender, that it should have just been a legal form of payment instead of making it a legal tender. In El Salvador, anything government make a legal tender can be used as payment of goods and services while marchants and other dealers must accept it as a form of payment. But when I read news today, I later knew that Bitcoin payment is mandatory but yet optional, the payment can be in Bitcoin but customers can decide to either accept Bitcoin or fiat, the transaction will be processed automatically in accordance to what chooses by the recipient.

https://m.elsalvador.com/noticias/negocios/bitcoin-criptomonedas/876042/2021/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=deportes%20&utm_campaign=organico&fbclid=undefined

Government: it will be mandatory to receive Bitcoin and businesses are exposed to infractions of consumer law
According to the legal advisor to the presidency, Javier Argueta, it will also be mandatory to have the virtual wallet and once it is, the business is obliged to receive the cryptocurrency as a form of payment.

“You, having the electronic wallet, must accept the transaction.  The ‘shall’ is the transaction obligation… you are required to have the electronic wallet.  What is mandatory is the transaction, ”said Argueta, explaining the validity of the Bitcoin Law, which formally begins as of this September 7.

 The journalist Federico Zeledón asked him about the virtual wallet: _For the sake of clarity, then, what I am obliged to do is to have the electronic wallet?  To which Argueta replied: "To have the electronic wallet," he affirmed, to later explain that with it the costs are negligible and that the state's Chivo Wallet wallet is free.

Later he said that when making the transaction, then the businessman will be able to decide whether to accept his payment in Bitcoin or in dollars and again, in a play on words, he gave an example: “If I buy you 1,000 shirts that cost $ 200 and I'm going to pay you in Bitcoin, you have the wallet, but in the transaction, when you do it, you have the will to receive Bitcoin or dollars, that is why it is voluntary, "he said.

 And once the wallet is downloaded, the merchant is obliged to make the transaction: "If you acquire that wallet, you can make the transaction," Argueta said. According to Argueta, all businesses are obliged to make the transaction in Bitcoin and despite the fact that neither the law nor the regulations clearly state it, if the business does not accept it, it is exposed to referrals of infractions to the Consumer Protection Law.

In my opinion, I think this is a welcome development, it can be said that El Salvadorian government are not making Bitcoin payment mandatory (although mandatory) even as it is a legal tender because the payment can be in Bitcoin while the receiver can choose to receive it in fiat and processed automatically.

Right. I believe that was an initial misunderstanding by some people because I read some post yesterday where the poster was saying that, the move was not good because the El Salvadorian President made Bitcoin payments Mandatory but not in this explanation. I think the businesses out there with this option can choose to either accept Bitcoin direct or Fiat, whichever they are comfortable with and I believe over time, this process will smoothen out.  

 

[NeuroticFish]

I think the businesses out there with this option can choose to either accept Bitcoin direct or Fiat, whichever they are comfortable with and I believe over time, this process will smoothen out.  

From my understanding, I think that a better wording would be that the businesses will have to accept bitcoin, but it's up to them whether in their accounts they'll receive/keep (from the bitcoin transactions) bitcoin or fiat.

This may be a technological problem, and I guess that this is what makes some of those merchants unhappy (along with misinformation and lack of understanding), since they'll have to install/use one more application/tool in their shops.

[Kakmakr]

The young president of El Salvador, Nayib Bukele are taking on the giants with this decision, because the money transmitters and the Banks are furious about this decision. (They are losing millions of Dollars in money transfer fees)

Now the IMF loans to his country might be in jeopardy, because all these Banks work together to force 3rd world countries to bend the knee before them.  https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/el-salvador-leads-world-into-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-legal-tender-2021-09-07/

"The World Bank reiterated on Tuesday it could not help El Salvador in adopting bitcoin "given environmental and transparency shortcomings," a bank spokesperson said....

[Nasuhalugu]

It is extraordinary that the government of El Salvador is carried out that way. Surely the people there welcomed the adoption of Bitcoin after it was legalized. Is it because this was done by the government as a form of trial?
If the application is successful in El Salvador, I'm sure other countries will follow in their footsteps.

[stompix]

But when I read news today, I later knew that Bitcoin payment is mandatory but yet optional, the payment can be in Bitcoin but customers can decide to either accept Bitcoin or fiat, the transaction will be processed automatically in accordance to what chooses by the recipient.

You probably meant merchants, not customer as those have already made their choice.

In my opinion, I think this is a welcome development, it can be said that El Salvadorian government are not making Bitcoin payment mandatory (although mandatory)

Yes, it's mandatory and all the receive/keep is just mumbo jumbo trying to paint an excuse on forcing somebody to do a thing while claiming they have the liberty of choice.

You have to accept bitcoin payments, that's the end of it, a business that was before only cash, no cc, no cheques nothing suddenly is forced to accept payment and deal with both crypto and digital fiat, as they will have to go through the government rules to withdraw the converted fiat, even if they stay don't choose the bitcoin option. This unless this magical conversion tool somehow prints paper money out of your phone.

[iv4n]

I think it can be easily solved with a sticker... "we accept Bitcoin or just dollars here"!

Some people can complain as long as they want, but the reality is clear, more options is always better! Open-minded people understand this, and I believe that nobody is forcing El Salvadorians to use Bitcoin, but the ones who have it and use it will now have a chance to pay directly with BTC in many stores, shops, or for whatever!
So if some shop, store, or anything doesn't wish to accept Bitcoins will probably lose customers, the ones who are ready to adapt will attract people from both worlds and they will have higher traffic, meaning higher profits!

Bad luck in the start, as I read they have problems with Chivo wallet, the explanation is due to server capacity increase... they promised it will be fixed quickly! An interesting thing, even their prime minister was giving tutorials to people who wanted to learn about it!

[Coyster]

In my opinion, I think this is a welcome development, it can be said that El Salvadorian government are not making Bitcoin payment mandatory (although mandatory)...

I second that, I think the government made things really comfortable for both parties, the merchants and the citizens, for people who wish to pay in Bitcoin, their orders would not be turned down, they can spend their Bitcoin as they like and in fact just the same way one would spend their fiat currency in the country, then as for the merchants, they are obliged to accept such payments, but not obligated to hold their payments in Bitcoin.

I mean, it's actually a smart move, for merchants who are Bitcoin enthusiasts, and are willing to hold Bitcoin despite it's volatility, this is an opportunity for them to build up their stash, for the others who do not quite like the idea of hodling Bitcoin, after receiving payment in the coin, they can change it right back to fiat immediately, tbh, everyone should basically be happy with this, except the person is still unclear about things or is just being a Bitcoin enemy.

[bryant.coleman]

Yes, it's mandatory and all the receive/keep is just mumbo jumbo trying to paint an excuse on forcing somebody to do a thing while claiming they have the liberty of choice.

You have to accept bitcoin payments, that's the end of it, a business that was before only cash, no cc, no cheques nothing suddenly is forced to accept payment and deal with both crypto and digital fiat, as they will have to go through the government rules to withdraw the converted fiat, even if they stay don't choose the bitcoin option. This unless this magical conversion tool somehow prints paper money out of your phone.

Yeah.. in many of the developing nations, there are shops which accept payments only in physical cash. There are different reasons for doing so, but the most common one is to avoid taxes. Obviously if they start accepting Bitcoin payments, then this won't be possible anymore. I am not in favor of tax evasion, but very small scale shops (those with daily turnover of less than $50 or so), can be excluded from this requirement. Nowadays banks also charge a lot, and for small scale merchants the charges can be extortive.

[sana54210]

I think the businesses out there with this option can choose to either accept Bitcoin direct or Fiat, whichever they are comfortable with and I believe over time, this process will smoothen out.  

From my understanding, I think that a better wording would be that the businesses will have to accept bitcoin, but it's up to them whether in their accounts they'll receive/keep (from the bitcoin transactions) bitcoin or fiat.

This may be a technological problem, and I guess that this is what makes some of those merchants unhappy (along with misinformation and lack of understanding), since they'll have to install/use one more application/tool in their shops.

As long as the receiver wants to keep the currency in fiat and do not want to deal with bitcoin, and have that option as well then I do not see any problems with this. Legal Tender for bitcoin was something that would eventually happen, it is great that it is El Salvador that started this, it is obvious that whales didn't want this and tried to do their best to keep selling bitcoin and pressuring El Salvador as well.

However the president literally called it before it happened and right now they are holding close to 600 bitcoin last I know (maybe even increased more later on) and they will eventually hold thousands upon thousands of bitcoins, other nations will be way too late to the party when they turn it into legal tender as well. So long story short, this deal was always awesome for people of that nation, and other big banks and all that are hating it.

[Shenzou]

That is what sold me on the idea of how Elsalvador is a great place to see how will using bitcoin will influence the economy, at first i thought they will totally replace their current system with it and create their coin and force people and business to use it, but it was clear that the president made it as an option and gave freedom to the people to chose between using fiat or bitcoin, but also creating incentives and initiatives like giving away 30$ worth of bitcoin for everyone, and i am curious to see the days ahead how will it influence the country.

[passwordnow]

There were some videos on the internet that shows you get to pay bitcoin as an option in El Salvador, they're not enforcing it that everyone should buy bitcoin to buy goods.
It's true that merchants and buyers can freely choose what they're up to with what they want to buy. This is really the development that should be welcomed by their people but it's also expected that not everyone is going to welcome this development as there are some protests that happens there because of this.

[ultrloa]

There were some videos on the internet that shows you get to pay bitcoin as an option in El Salvador, they're not enforcing it that everyone should buy bitcoin to buy goods.
It's true that merchants and buyers can freely choose what they're up to with what they want to buy. This is really the development that should be welcomed by their people but it's also expected that not everyone is going to welcome this development as there are some protests that happens there because of this.

Maybe those people who protest against it doesn't understand that they didn't force to use this, also for sure there are agendas on why those protest formed thats why its really good to know the real situation before taking action towards this. And good thing merchants is now following since for this the citizens who use bitcoin could really feel the effect of adoption in there country and this could increase the number of users on that country.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

For the life of me, I couldn't remember whether El Salvador's fiat currency was in trouble (like Venezuela's), so I checked the Wikipedia page on the country before posting.  I had no idea that they used the US Dollar as their own currency.  Another interesting tidbit from the article was this:

As part of the law foreigners can gain permanent residence in El Salvador if they invest 3 Bitcoin into the country.

Now that's pretty interesting!  I wonder how much real estate costs in the lower-crime sections of El Salvador and how well one could live if, let's say, they had multiple accounts participating in bounties or signature campaigns.  That would be an interesting way to live if you wanted to live on the edge, don't you think?

I mean, it's actually a smart move, for merchants who are Bitcoin enthusiasts, and are willing to hold Bitcoin despite it's volatility, this is an opportunity for them to build up their stash

Sure, but people who own small businesses in El Salvador didn't start them to speculate in a currency like bitcoin, and I can see why there's a lot of resistance to this.  You're thinking like someone who loves bitcoin already, whereas these merchants are basically being forced to accept a form of money they probably don't want any part of.

[zanezane]

There were some videos on the internet that shows you get to pay bitcoin as an option in El Salvador, they're not enforcing it that everyone should buy bitcoin to buy goods.
It's true that merchants and buyers can freely choose what they're up to with what they want to buy. This is really the development that should be welcomed by their people but it's also expected that not everyone is going to welcome this development as there are some protests that happens there because of this.

That's how it should be, the protest about it makes it like they're forcing people to use bitcoin. I knew from the start that they were doing the right thing on this one and the people that were against them weren't really in the right to be against the legalization of bitcoin in El Salvador, probably they're interest are being affected negatively.

[Darker45]

I think the businesses out there with this option can choose to either accept Bitcoin direct or Fiat, whichever they are comfortable with and I believe over time, this process will smoothen out. 

From my understanding, I think that a better wording would be that the businesses will have to accept bitcoin, but it's up to them whether in their accounts they'll receive/keep (from the bitcoin transactions) bitcoin or fiat.

This may be a technological problem, and I guess that this is what makes some of those merchants unhappy (along with misinformation and lack of understanding), since they'll have to install/use one more application/tool in their shops.

I don't think this is what is being implemented in the country right now. In my understanding, there is not only freedom to receive/keep Bitcoin payments as Bitcoin or USD, there is also freedom to accept Bitcoin or not. In other words, people and businesses have the freedom not to download the Bitcoin wallet or application. In other words, not to accept Bitcoin payments.

President Bukele has this to say:


https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1429608848998993924

The second and third paragraph says, "People will be able to download an application to receive payments or gifts in #bitcoin or DOLLARS." "If they want they will download it and if they don't want to, no." respectively.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

In my opinion, I think this is a welcome development, it can be said that El Salvadorian government are not making Bitcoin payment mandatory (although mandatory) even as it is a legal tender because the payment can be in Bitcoin while the receiver can choose to receive it in fiat and processed automatically.

Well that was the only option his government could go with so he doesn't look like a dictator as the rest of the world (government) would had used that against him if he enforce the use of just Bitcoin and not give the merchant alternatives although It would had been more effective accepting bitcoin without having it pledge to the dollar. I was thinking the citizens of El Salvador would be hearing more of things been priced in satoshi instead of the USD, chances are many would still want to be paid in USD and those accepting in BTC might trade almost instantly to USD to avoid the volatility of the the market.

I don't know if this was a perfect timing as in the next 1/2 years the market won't be that positive as the last 6 months and if the market continues declining then it'll discourage many marchant from accepting bitcoin and this will probably drag down the popularity of the currency in the country. Having all Marchant accept Bitcoin in Satoshi value would had been a more preferable options in my opinion, with time they would had been grateful.

[Ozero]

There were some videos on the internet that shows you get to pay bitcoin as an option in El Salvador, they're not enforcing it that everyone should buy bitcoin to buy goods.
It's true that merchants and buyers can freely choose what they're up to with what they want to buy. This is really the development that should be welcomed by their people but it's also expected that not everyone is going to welcome this development as there are some protests that happens there because of this.

That's how it should be, the protest about it makes it like they're forcing people to use bitcoin. I knew from the start that they were doing the right thing on this one and the people that were against them weren't really in the right to be against the legalization of bitcoin in El Salvador, probably they're interest are being affected negatively.

It is very good that the recipients of bitcoin in transactions have the right to choose whether to save the amount received in bitcoins or in fiat. Choice is always good, and people can even make good money on it if they monitor market price trends. Apparently, many residents of El Salvador do not yet know all the intricacies of this monetary reform, and therefore many are dissatisfied with it.
In this regard, it will be very interesting to observe how further events will develop in this country. There has never been such an experiment.

[FatFork]

For the life of me, I couldn't remember whether El Salvador's fiat currency was in trouble (like Venezuela's), so I checked the Wikipedia page on the country before posting.  I had no idea that they used the US Dollar as their own currency.  Another interesting tidbit from the article was this:

As part of the law foreigners can gain permanent residence in El Salvador if they invest 3 Bitcoin into the country.

Now that's pretty interesting!  I wonder how much real estate costs in the lower-crime sections of El Salvador and how well one could live if, let's say, they had multiple accounts participating in bounties or signature campaigns.  That would be an interesting way to live if you wanted to live on the edge, don't you think?

According to elsalvadorinfo.net, the minimum wage in El Salvador ranges between $ 243 ($1 per hour) for agriculture and $ 365 a month ($1.5 per hour) for the commerce, industrial, and service sectors. The cost of living for single person ranges can go as low as $ 300 and higher than $ 1,300 per month, depending on the person's lifestyle and living location. In comparison to other Central American countries, this places El Salvador's cost of living somewhere in the middle.
Now I'm not exactly sure how much the real estate costs are (they probably vary a lot), but according to some sources, a two-bedroom house outside the capital can cost as little as $ 20,000. This is certainly a thought worth considering.

[NeuroticFish]

The second and third paragraph says, "People will be able to download an application to receive payments or gifts in #bitcoin or DOLLARS." "If they want they will download it and if they don't want to, no." respectively.

It doesn't say anything about companies, so allow me to keep my doubts (but I'm also open to getting fully corrected if it's the case).
However, I am no longer 100% sure which is the correct way to understand how this legal tender thing is supposed to work there (I thought it works in a way, I then though it works the other way, now I'm no longer 100% sure in either direction)
If I get convinced in the other direction I will correct or remove that post. But for now, I'm not.

And I see that others are seeing it the same:

Besides, they are required by law to accept it, it's not about them wanting or not waiting to.

Edit: I've got the missing info, see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5358830.msg57897018#msg57897018