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Author Topic: How to create bills on the cheap  (Read 2773 times)
PrintCoins
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December 03, 2011, 03:57:56 AM
 #1

I want to produce denominated bitcoin bills, but there is a little problem.

To do so, it seems that I would have to create a custom made tamper evident hologram to cover over the private key of every bill. This is because, while in circulation, someone could take off the hologram, copy the private key, and apply a new non-custom hologram and pass off the bill.

This is a problem because the minimum that I can get away with spending is $1500 on custom holograms. That is quite a large investment, and one that I am reluctant to make since I would mean that I would have to sell about 1,500-3000 bills to cover my initial investment (depending on the markup). It is possible, but that is quite a bit to put out to just break even in what a year or two?

I want to break even immediately and not on some future date after sinking huge amounts of time into it.

So today I thought of a solution, a very hacker-ish solution. I am not going to tell you what it is though. I would like to see if the security minds can come up with it themselves this weekend.

So let me spell out the exact problem that you have to figure out:

* Must be cheap (Less than $0.20 per unit) with less than $100 investment
* Must protect a private key on a paper bill, and be obvious when someone has exposed the private key
* Must be fast and easy to do on large sets of bills
* Must be unique and very hard for someone else to replicate

My solution is far from perfect, not exactly elegant, and I'll need to see it can handle a decent attack. But it might work.

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December 03, 2011, 04:18:45 AM
 #2

I want to produce denominated bitcoin bills, but there is a little problem.

To do so, it seems that I would have to create a custom made tamper evident hologram to cover over the private key of every bill. This is because, while in circulation, someone could take off the hologram, copy the private key, and apply a new non-custom hologram and pass off the bill.

This is a problem because the minimum that I can get away with spending is $1500 on custom holograms. That is quite a large investment, and one that I am reluctant to make since I would mean that I would have to sell about 1,500-3000 bills to cover my initial investment (depending on the markup). It is possible, but that is quite a bit to put out to just break even in what a year or two?

I want to break even immediately and not on some future date after sinking huge amounts of time into it.

So today I thought of a solution, a very hacker-ish solution. I am not going to tell you what it is though. I would like to see if the security minds can come up with it themselves this weekend.

So let me spell out the exact problem that you have to figure out:

* Must be cheap (Less than $0.20 per unit) with less than $100 investment
* Must protect a private key on a paper bill, and be obvious when someone has exposed the private key
* Must be fast and easy to do on large sets of bills
* Must be unique and very hard for someone else to replicate

My solution is far from perfect, not exactly elegant, and I'll need to see it can handle a decent attack. But it might work.
Just tell us your solution... Why make us *guess* for it lol?

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December 03, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
 #3

I want to break even immediately and not on some future date after sinking huge amounts of time into it.
Not the type of business that all customers would trust their money to :)

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December 03, 2011, 04:28:52 AM
 #4

Wax scratch-off like on lottery tickets, with a custom image stamped into the wax?
Oh, wait, hackerish.... Nah, I got nothing.

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December 03, 2011, 04:33:08 AM
 #5

This is a problem because the minimum that I can get away with spending is $1500 on custom holograms.

Do you mean maximum?  This is what I thought I understood...

* Must be unique and very hard for someone else to replicate

This, by its nature, is the opposite of cheap.  It's sort of the same reason mining is hard - if it were easy, it wouldn't be useful.

Here is another thing you could consider for holograms.  Find someone else who is interested in custom holograms, and go in halfs.  Use their per-piece laser numbering option to mark PrintCoins.com on them, and keep the hologram very generic Bitcoin so the unmarked ones are valuable to others.  Maybe I might do it, but I am not yet sure just how I would use another hologram set.

Who knows, others might want Bitcoin holograms for completely unrelated purposes, like with MtGox or MemoryDealers or IBB or whoever lasered on their name.  Ask Roger over at MemoryDealers if he'd like a bitcoin logo hologram with lasered "ask us about Bitcoin" that he could stick on all his outgoing invoices and shipments.

If you sold Bitcoin holograms, I'd probably buy a few sheets no matter what they were.

So example, order 15,000 holograms.
10,000 of them say "PrintCoins.com"
1,000 of them say "Ask me about Bitcoin"
1,000 of them you just leave blank
3,000 of them say things your "sponsors" want on their own holograms

If you are worried about selling 1500-3000 bills.... I have already sold 1500 coins in like my first or second month, and have sold well over 3000 coins after having them out a total of not even three months.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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December 03, 2011, 04:35:36 AM
 #6

Wax scratch-off like on lottery tickets, with a custom image stamped into the wax?
Oh, wait, hackerish.... Nah, I got nothing.
In a real world scenario, the money circulating would wear out, and the wax would come off  Cheesy.

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December 03, 2011, 04:37:38 AM
 #7

I want to break even immediately and not on some future date after sinking huge amounts of time into it.
Not the type of business that all customers would trust their money to Smiley

I am trying to create cheap reliable mass produced physical bitcoin currency to use for daily transactions. If I could make it for zero cost and have everyone do the same, I would be happy.

I want to make bitcoin bills as cheaply as the fed produces dollars.

Bitmessage.org: BM-2cT3oFVj68gugBD5JFvP3qmoBHWXJQ6ZkT
BTC Addr:18AA1hq6DVHn5WuK1fQhr5CdkqeG5Mj2ZL <--did you like my post? Send some encouragement here.
Print bitcoin bills: http://print.printcoins.com/
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December 03, 2011, 04:40:44 AM
 #8

Wax scratch-off like on lottery tickets, with a custom image stamped into the wax?
Oh, wait, hackerish.... Nah, I got nothing.

Hackerish doesn't have to involve electrons. MacGuiver counts, but wax wouldn't really work in wallets.

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Print bitcoin bills: http://print.printcoins.com/
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December 03, 2011, 04:51:07 AM
 #9

If you are worried about selling 1500-3000 bills.... I have already sold 1500 coins in like my first or second month, and have sold well over 3000 coins after having them out a total of not even three months.
I just thought I'd interject this for people's consideration.  Metal coins have a lot more allure to me personally than paper bills. There's just something that's more tangible or the illusion of lasting a long time or something.  That's just a personal thing.  Other people might be into paper bills.  Before learning about bitcoin, I was a numismatist, but I never got into collecting bills or stamps.  Perhaps if the bills were more ornate with many levels of art on them, I would be more interested.  Just a personal opinion.

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December 03, 2011, 06:20:03 AM
 #10

Print the public key on one side and print the private key on the other side where no one would think to look for it?  Grin

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December 03, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
 #11

MacGyver ey?  Hackerish ey?

Strong steam-proof glue around edges of a paper flap made out of parts of old zimbabwe notes that you've laser printed a logo over plus signed with your own blood?


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December 03, 2011, 04:26:00 PM
 #12

MacGyver ey?  Hackerish ey?

Strong steam-proof glue around edges of a paper flap made out of parts of old zimbabwe notes that you've laser printed a logo over plus signed with your own blood?



I actually though of printing and stickering on $1 bills. In essence the bill itself would be a hedge against either currency melting down. This would most likely get me in trouble with the SS though.

Anyway I offer 1BTC to whoever can do the best guess of what I am thinking of. This will be my judgement as to who did the best, and I might spit it up among multiple people if they each guess different elements.

Deadline Monday, noon PST.

I might though an extra BTC to someone who comes up with a better idea that I decide to go with instead.

Don't read too much into my mention of MacGyver. I just wanted to illustrate that hacking isn't just about code.

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December 03, 2011, 06:01:14 PM
 #13

Here's an experiment to try. Print key codes on fiat currency and release it back into the wild. Wait and see how long it takes before the amount is redeemed. This may help spread awareness.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 03, 2011, 06:20:10 PM
 #14

Here's an experiment to try. Print key codes on fiat currency and release it back into the wild. Wait and see how long it takes before the amount is redeemed. This may help spread awareness.

THat is actually freaking brilliant.  And you could take back the money if too much time went by.

A lot of people would need to be doing it for anyone to notice...there are a lot of pieces of paper out there.

And it would be somewhat difficult to print a unique code on each bill, for most people.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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December 03, 2011, 06:35:45 PM
 #15

I want to break even immediately and not on some future date after sinking huge amounts of time into it.
Not the type of business that all customers would trust their money to Smiley

I am trying to create cheap reliable mass produced physical bitcoin currency to use for daily transactions. If I could make it for zero cost and have everyone do the same, I would be happy.

I want to make bitcoin bills as cheaply as the fed produces dollars.

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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December 03, 2011, 06:43:25 PM
 #16

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

You are getting warmer. I have a plan similar to this.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 03, 2011, 06:44:59 PM
 #17

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

You are getting warmer. I have a plan similar to this.

LOL warmer to what? I wanna do this now!!  Cheesy

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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December 03, 2011, 06:54:36 PM
 #18

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

You are getting warmer. I have a plan similar to this.

LOL warmer to what? I wanna do this now!!  Cheesy

How are they going to spend their paper Bitcoin on your website?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 03, 2011, 06:57:33 PM
 #19

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

You are getting warmer. I have a plan similar to this.

LOL warmer to what? I wanna do this now!!  Cheesy

How are they going to spend their paper Bitcoin on your website?

I think he's looking at them as an advertising method

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December 03, 2011, 07:00:10 PM
 #20

I have an idea, what about sponsored bills?

I would highly subsidize the cost for bills printed with my BitInstant Logo on it, that I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Lets make it happen!!

You are getting warmer. I have a plan similar to this.

LOL warmer to what? I wanna do this now!!  Cheesy

How are they going to spend their paper Bitcoin on your website?

They aren't. I can sell, give to friends, or anything like that.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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