n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable)

[n0nce]

Prompted by fillippone's latest thread, I got the motivation to finally make an open-source, easily customizable (fully parametric) design of my jig.
The code is found here.
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This is a great news.
Thank you very much n0nce for this.

You're welcome!

It will be way more simple to get a jig customised on each own needs.
The stamp customisation will be of utter utility, as it will allow for easier use of “recovered” stamps without buying new ones (Opsec Reasons).

Yes, correct, I'd like people to use whatever they have already or what they can find locally so they don't have to make suspicious online purchases...
Only one thing to mention: This is now designed with 30-ish millimetre or smaller outer washer diameter; the jig size doesn't change, so you can do anything that's smaller, but not really larger ones. If someone needs that, just increase the jig's outer size, which is currently coded to 54mmx54mm.

[dkbit98]

I added to the washers a couple of “special ones” with the serial numbers of the tamper proof seals printed on it.

Is this Italian thing to post big images with red color like this?  
What happens if someone removes this stickers and put them back in same place or make a copy first before doing that?
Good tamper evident stickers should leave some residue that is hard to remove from surface indicating sticker was removed aka void happened.

[fillippone]

I added to the washers a couple of “special ones” with the serial numbers of the tamper proof seals printed on it.

Is this Italian thing to post big images with red color like this? 
What happens if someone removes this stickers and put them back in same place or make a copy first before doing that?
Good tamper evident stickers should leave some residue that is hard to remove from surface indicating sticker was removed aka void happened.

I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number.
Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures.

[dkbit98]

I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number.
Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures.

Mamma mia!
Don't forget to accidently put red Ferrari or lot of red ripe tomatoes in background.
One question, where did you buy this kind of void stickers with serial numbers, online or locally?
I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color  

[fillippone]

I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number.
Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures.

Mamma mia!
Don't forget to accidently put red Ferrari or lot of red ripe tomatoes in background.
One question, where did you buy this kind of void stickers with serial numbers, online or locally?
I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color 

Bear with me.
I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English.
Today I added a paragraph regarding... Glitter Nail Polish... wondering if it is available in RED ^{(not sure I am getting this joke, btw)}

[LoyceV]

If you use a seed phrase and an additional passphrase, or a multi-sig set up, then there is a lot to be gained from having a tamper-evident container.

This makes a lot of sense I didn't consider the multisig scenario when I wrote about tamper proofness being quite useless.
Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address.

I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color 

How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon? It should be more unique than that.

I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English.

I wanted to Merit your post already, but I'll save it for the version I can actually read

[fillippone]

Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address.

As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig. Multisig are actually more se ire than single sig, only lacking a truly idiot proof interface.
I have great expectations for Taproot to make degrading multisig easy to implement for the idiot user (like me).
Something that was implemented by GreenAddress, for example, with a custom software implementation. 
A degrading 3/4 multisig would be my perfect ideal setup.

How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon? It should be more unique than that.

Absolutely correct. This is why you need at least a serial number on that.

I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English.

I wanted to Merit your post already, but I'll save it for the version I can actually read

I have to deliver then.
I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone.

[n0nce]

I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone.

What do you mean?

[LoyceV]

As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig.

That's not true, I've seen it in Byteball (now Obyte), which actually supported it from it's official wallet. From what I remember, this was much more idiot proof by default than manually setting it up in Electrum. It's been a few years, but what I remember is linking the different wallets from inside each wallet, which worked nicely.

I have great expectations for Taproot to make degrading multisig easy to implement for the idiot user (like me).

Electrum is confusing: If you create a multisig wallet, you can't even save your incomplete wallet before you have the master public keys from all other wallets too. I tested it earlier today, and it's disappointingly labour intensive.

I just realize talking about multisig in a topic about steel washer backups is slightly off-topic. And of course setting up multisig is much less labour intensive than 3D printing and hammering words into steel I've spent hours setting up a secure wallet and backups in the past.

[fillippone]

I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone.

What do you mean?

Buying an anvil is ok.
Buying glitter nail polish, and watching YouTube videos on how to apply it, it is not.

As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig.

That's not true, I've seen it in Byteball (now Obyte), which actually supported it from it's official wallet. From what I remember, this was much more idiot proof by default than manually setting it up in Electrum.

I knew that writing that sentence above I was exposing myself to being proven wrong by some obscure shitcoin.
Yes, byteball is an obscure shitcoin.
And yes, multisig implementation is cumbersome.
This is why I hope the next protocol advancement will make this simpler.

[dkbit98]

How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon? It should be more unique than that.

You can buy it on amazon or ebay but you can't remove residue with void message so easy and that's the whole point.
It is easy to customize it with different unique shapes, and I was not going to use this for bitcoin seed words but for regular envelops with paper documents.
You can also order this tapes with custom design, so for fillippone I would add custom ferrari drawing with electric power, or you can send them any design you want.

[n0nce]

I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone.

What do you mean?

Buying an anvil is ok.
Buying glitter nail polish, and watching YouTube videos on how to apply it, it is not.

Absolute madman! My personal tip though: you don't need to watch videos about everything, sometimes it's better just to try. It can avoid some pain that YouTube videos sometimes induce. Nail polish without glitter can be a helpful tool to touch up a chipped floor tile; just use that little brush and apply, it doesn't get much simpler. The idea about the glitter being at random, sounds good as well, though.

This is why I hope the next protocol advancement will make this simpler.

Are you sure it's a protocol issue? I think it's more just the software implementations. For example, BlueWallet and I think also Sparrow, give pretty good UIs for creating multisig wallets.

[LoyceV]

You can buy it on amazon or ebay but you can't remove residue with void message so easy and that's the whole point.

My assumption for those stickers has always been that it's not easy to replace them. Removing residue shouldn't be that hard (using a solvent).
I've seen laptops with an anti-theft-sticker which covered a "Stolen Property" warning burned into the plastic. That would make it much harder to cover up tampering.

I was not going to use this for bitcoin seed words but for regular envelops with paper documents.

On paper, I agree that it's going to be very difficult to remove any sticker residue without leaving permanent damage.

[dkbit98]

I've seen laptops with an anti-theft-sticker which covered a "Stolen Property" warning burned into the plastic. That would make it much harder to cover up tampering.

You know how easy nowadays is to buy spare plastic part for that laptop and replace it, especially cover is cheap and I even saw people adding foil over damaged covers.
Sure, residue can probably be removed with some solvent depending on what surface is used on device but it's not always so easy.
I got one sticker I tested on metal plate and it was impossible to remove residue without scratching metal or removing surface color.
There is always a factor of time to consider, more the sticker is on surface more will color be different (preserved) from surrounding surface.

[n0nce]

That looks nice! But to make it tamper proof, you'll need to make sure you recognize the exact version you created. If someone can just print his own SeedCapsule to replace yours, you may not notice it.

That is true, you can always make your own custom made details that can't be printed and duplicated exactly.
It's not that hard if you have your own 3d printer, to add specific color mix or something similar like that, maybe editing stl files and making it unique.
Just let your imagination go wild.

Thanks for sharing that capsule file. Compatibility should be possible by getting the right washers for the capsule & then generating a jig for those washers using my new openSCAD file that I posted the other day.

Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want.
Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate.

Sure, residue can probably be removed with some solvent depending on what surface is used on device but it's not always so easy.
I got one sticker I tested on metal plate and it was impossible to remove residue without scratching metal or removing surface color.
There is always a factor of time to consider, more the sticker is on surface more will color be different (preserved) from surrounding surface.

Actually, 3D prints will be one of the surfaces where it's hard to get off such a sticker without damaging the plastic, since it's usually soft and reactive to lots of chemicals. Prints also have lots of small ridges where the adhesive can get into nicely, so no chance of simply peeling it off cleanly either.

[dkbit98]

Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want.
Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate.

We are probably getting into paranoid twilight zone territory with something like this, but I think this is much better approach then not using any protection at all.
One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem.
Combine this with something like SeedCapsule that has stem-to-be-broken, and you got yourself a damn good tamper evident setup.

[fillippone]

One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem.

As per nail polish, or any other entropy-related scheme, you are supposed to take a picture (and safely store) to check against to the seal while opening it.

Progressing with the translation of the thread. Should soon land.

[n0nce]

Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want.
Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate.

We are probably getting into paranoid twilight zone territory with something like this, but I think this is much better approach then not using any protection at all.
One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem.
Combine this with something like SeedCapsule that has stem-to-be-broken, and you got yourself a damn good tamper evident setup.

As fillippone just mentioned, the idea is to photograph the 'seal' e.g. the paint coat to verify against it in the future.

I just had another idea though: if you go for tamper-evidence, and you've got seals that stick to metal as well as you mentioned earlier, you could also just put one or two directly onto the 'stack' of washers. To read the seed, you will obviously have to separate the washers from one another, breaking the sealing stickers.

Progressing with the translation of the thread. Should soon land.

Very nice! Looking forward to it; though it will be a long read if it's similar to the Italian one.

[LoyceV]

One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem.

Since we're on the subject of printing custom capsules with multiple colors: how about making the capsules for each part of the multisig storage line up? Say you have 3 cylinders with metal washers. When you put those 3 cylinders together, a matching pattern occurs. That way you don't need to remember the exact details of each cylinder, but you do need to get them all together to check if any tampering took place.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address.

Although I don't share those reservations I can certainly understand them, but I still think that using a standardized method which is reproducible across multiple different pieces of wallet software (or even manually) such as multi-sig or passphrases is far preferable to any other scheme such as seed splitting or Shamir's.


If you are thinking of putting something directly on to the stack of washers, then why not just use a couple of different colors of metal paint and paint over the whole stack. For someone to open the stack they would have to break them apart which would obviously damage the paint. And obviously you can take photos to ensure someone hasn't painted over your paint.