n0nce (OP)
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January 14, 2022, 12:45:36 PM Merited by fillippone (3) |
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Awesome! I stumbled on this thread almost by chance and this is definitely something I would like to test in the near future. Low tech, durable way, of storing bitcoin is definitely something I would like to test. I already had a tough on the topic, Gifting satoshis to future generationsNow, trying first hand is now on my 2022 project list. That's cool! If you're interested in such a jig as well, feel free to tell me the dimensions of your washers & I can send you STL files to print I didn't get around to making an easy customizable OpenSCAD file for it. With that, anyone could customize the file by themselves for free, but the file I have right now is only for (paid) Autodesk Fusion.
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philipma1957
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January 31, 2022, 05:55:06 PM Last edit: January 31, 2022, 06:38:57 PM by philipma1957 Merited by fillippone (3), dkbit98 (1) |
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Please note if I think I gave credit for the image correctly. I pulled it from: https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/how about using a fender washer. use center hole screw washer to plywood drill second hole screw washer in both holes put new hole at six o'clock wrap the word at 7-9-11-1-3-5 cost is a piece of plywood. 25 washers a nut and bolt when done lightly grease the coins to slow rusting. white lithium grease is good. (yeah stainless steel can rust) and you can make a jig that holds the punches using this https://www.amazon.com/Mending-Stainless-Straight-Connector-Thickness/dp/B08DNMK7W5/ref=sr_1_1?c
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Rakib$11
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February 01, 2022, 03:46:55 PM |
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Extraordinary 🙂 I already had a tough on the topic.
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philipma1957
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Extraordinary 🙂 I already had a tough on the topic.
I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.
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n0nce (OP)
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February 02, 2022, 12:20:03 PM Merited by fillippone (3) |
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Extraordinary I already had a tough on the topic.
I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Cool! I'm not 100% sure yet how it's going to work, so I'll check out your topic once it's up. Feel free to link it here as well! Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless!
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dkbit98
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February 02, 2022, 08:12:56 PM Merited by fillippone (3) |
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yeah stainless steel can rust
Only if you scrub the surface or cut it with other metal, or if you use some chemicals for cleaning. There are different types and grades of SS with different percentage of iron, chromium, nickel and carbon... in simple terms more nickel means better anti-corrosion. I think that Jameson Lopp used all kinds of testing when he tested metal seed backups, including acid with other torture methods and stainless steel survived all of them. One material that would outlive stainless steel would probably be titanium but that is expensive and I never heard of titanium washers so far I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.
Great to hear and I just love reading about DIY projects, especially here in forum. What exact type of steel washers you purchased?
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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philipma1957
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February 03, 2022, 03:19:15 AM Last edit: February 03, 2022, 11:09:54 AM by philipma1957 |
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Extraordinary I already had a tough on the topic.
I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Cool! I'm not 100% sure yet how it's going to work, so I'll check out your topic once it's up. Feel free to link it here as well! Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless! yeah I am certain I will have the washer held solid via 2 screws. center and six o'clock. washers came today along with bolts and nuts. I think I have a great jig Idea that will rig off your rig idea. I will hold back on that idea until I see if it works. How big is the full list of words? 24 of ? @ dkbit98 I got this. these are 18/8 vs 316 https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/ got 2 packs of 25 https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A108/ got 1 pack of 50 https://www.mcmaster.com/91249A726/ got 1 pack of bolts https://www.mcmaster.com/97149A100/ got 1 pack of 50 so 100 washers will allow me four sets. I know that 18/8 is not as rust resistant as 316 but some lithium grease will offer more protection. I can field test it easy peasy. Just put one outside for a few months time. My washer choice is from this company https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/oversized-washers-9/I got the punch set below https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0P8ADA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_detailsedit list length is 2048 words if you had 2 separate wallets with 48 words you could make 2 of these for under 20 bucks and labor. If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers. Yeah I know it is only decently secure vs using the full list. abandon ability able about above absent absorb abstract absurd abuse access accident account accuse achieve acid acoustic acquire across act action actor actress actual adapt add addict address adjust admit adult advance advice aerobic affair afford afraid again age agent agree ahead aim air airport aisle alarm album alcohol alert alien all alley allow almost alone alpha already also alter always amateur amazing among amount amused analyst anchor ancient anger angle angry animal ankle announce annual another answer antenna antique anxiety any apart apology appear apple approve april arch arctic area arena argue arm armed armor army around arrange arrest arrive arrow art artefact artist artwork ask aspect assault asset assist assume asthma athlete atom attack attend attitude attract auction audit august aunt author auto autumn average avocado avoid awake aware away awesome awful awkward axis baby bachelor bacon badge bag 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LoyceV
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February 03, 2022, 06:09:36 PM |
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If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself. And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
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philipma1957
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February 03, 2022, 06:20:52 PM |
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If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself. And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words. If you give a list of 60 words. 48 good words for 2 full seed backups. you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt you don’t need to punch. but the fabricator would know you sent for the set of 60 words. So you would be safe more or less from the two wallets getting cracked. but the risk of five dollar wrench attack is heightened
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LoyceV
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you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk.
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philipma1957
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February 04, 2022, 04:09:11 AM |
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you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk. true good point
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dkbit98
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February 05, 2022, 10:50:53 PM |
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And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers.
I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this. Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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philipma1957
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February 08, 2022, 02:54:18 PM |
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And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers.
I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this. Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy maybe depends on how easy it is to do.
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n0nce (OP)
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February 09, 2022, 12:39:59 AM |
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Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy Pretty sure such a product exists and there's definitely a place for it. Since it takes probably 2h to stamp a backup and even more time to get all the stuff needed, people might prefer buying just a set of all seed words and only having to number them correctly. But I still believe for better opsec, for reducing waste and saving money, the DIY approach is king. Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')!
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dkbit98
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February 09, 2022, 06:52:39 PM |
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Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')! I think DIY is the way to go, it's just not for everybody, because some people can only eat baby food and they can not chew for themselves Most people today prefer to trust others to do the job for them, and it's not just related with Bitcoin stuff, it's the same with everything else. Probably one of the best things you can have today is nice 3D printer, learn basic soldering, working with tools, and you are good to go. It's not that hard to make your own hardware signing device, seed words backup on metal, your own bitcoin node with 3d printed case, etc.
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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fillippone
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2142
Merit: 15376
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
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February 15, 2022, 06:20:16 PM |
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I am definitely going for this. I already have a blockmit printed. I would like to do a review of your jig. I have 24mm washers and this set of pinchers set of punchers. Do you need anything else? Sending you a DM.
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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fillippone
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2142
Merit: 15376
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
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February 22, 2022, 01:59:21 PM Last edit: May 15, 2023, 05:25:26 PM by fillippone |
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A little update from my secret location: I got this: I started testing: The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious. I am going to write a full thread on this experience.
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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n0nce (OP)
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February 22, 2022, 04:18:25 PM |
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A little update from my secret location: I got this: I started testing: Sweeet! That's a clean setup! I am using rusty tools and for my last backup, due to no access to the anvil at the time, resorted to using a large hammer's side profile as support for the washer. Works better than you might think. The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious.
Same epiphany here when I did my first backup, kneeling on the ground outside hammering onto metal for hours. This caveman-type activity, with the background of securing high-tech digital decentralized online 'gold', was kind of bizarre at first, honestly! I am going to write a full thread on this experience.
Cool, looking forward on more opinions on this backup technique in general & also specific challenges / critiques / improvement suggestions. It's still my favourite so far due to cheap material, perfect results (can throw away badly stamped washers) and privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ).
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fillippone
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2142
Merit: 15376
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
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February 22, 2022, 04:24:41 PM |
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privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ). This is something I thought about. Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to). We will see…
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. .HUGE. | | | | | | █▀▀▀▀ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ . CASINO & SPORTSBOOK ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ | ▀▀▀▀█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▄▄▄█ | | |
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n0nce (OP)
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February 22, 2022, 04:27:46 PM |
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privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ). This is something I thought about. Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to). We will see… For best opsec, I think it can even make sense to buy a small 3D printer just for the purpose of printing a few of these jigs, since a printer can cost less than hardware wallets. You can also then resell the printer at half price if you're really sure not to ever need it again.
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