The Lightning Network node experience

[Rath_]

Here are the stats for May. I routed only 3 transactions, all of which were free of charge. June is not going to be good as well. My node was down from the beginning of the month until this week.

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[n0nce]

Here are the stats for May. I routed only 3 transactions, all of which were free of charge. June is not going to be good as well. My node was down from the beginning of the month until this week.

I didn't have much activity either; both last and this month. Somehow there were two channels that I simply wasn't able to rebalance anymore either, so I closed them; this means I'm right now looking for a new channel partner.. Just in case someone's interested - otherwise I'll look around online.

[darkv0rt3x]

Hi. Very quiet too on my side.


I have not being very pro-active changing fees etc, and I had yesterday 3 channels that were offline, for instance. I don't ave idea what else can I do in order to make my node more active. I have a friend of mine that has a lot more action in his node than me. Ok, his node is probably like twice, or even more, bigger than mine, but yet, he has way more than 3x the forwardings than me!

Most of my channels are pretty well balanced and despite the fact, most of my channels are under 1M sats, I have at least 3 over 1M sats of a total of 8 channels.

[darkv0rt3x]

I just updated my previous post. I just did a few significant new forwards and I wanted to include it in the post above. It was a forward of over 500k sats and collected over 1000 mSat. I think this might have been the biggest forward I did since I started my node like around 2 years ago. But this is still quite quiet these days!

Edited;
Instead of editing the previous post, I decided to post an updated image so that I can also keep track of it!

Image removed

Edited;
I just got it wrong. The new image was from June! Forget this post!

[konfuzius5278]

So maybe its little off topic, but I try running a LN Node sometimes always stuck.

The thing is I want to have the possibility of some settings like channel fee and so on.

I dont wanna buy a Raspi so I wanna use Ubuntu VPS, but I dont get this (https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases) LN daemon work.

Is there any good beginners guide for it somewhere? My search not helped me.

As I understand as I got a windows node working for a while, you need to fund "the other side of the channel". Is that really needed and when yes, how you do it?

Thanks for your help

Arwed

[Cricktor]

@konfuzius5278 have a look at the RaspiBolt LND setup at https://raspibolt.org/guide/lightning/, it's easy to adapt for Ubuntu and steps are easy to follow, depending on your knowledge of Debian based Linux. There're not many Raspi specific parts, mainly for downloads and appropriate arch of those.

Don't forget to have a look how data directories are laid out for RaspiBolt and adjust accordingly or copy the whole setup for your Ubuntu VPS.

[n0nce]

[...]

Cricktor correctly answered your question, but I have a few remarks.
[1] If you want to save money, a cheap, 'local' node might be a better option in the long run. You will need a VPS with a ton of storage for the blockchain and various LN databases which isn't cheap.
[2] Core Lightning (previously C-Lightning) is more lightweight and needs less resources, so that will play into your hands if trying to run the whole thing on cheap hardware (even if you do go the VPS route).
[3] In case you decide to go for Core Lightning, I believe that my full node install guide will be very easy to follow. You can skip electrs if you don't need it and just install Bitcoin Core and Core Lightning.

[konfuzius5278]

Thanks @n0nce & @Cricktor for your help.

I was inspired yesterday by the thread and done some own research again and found also Core Lighting with plugins. Currently waiting for sync the BTC Core. Lets see

Still the remaining question. There are tools/plugins to re-balance the channels. But how you do the inital fund of the "other side of the cannel" (incoming?).

Thanks

[Rath_]

Still the remaining question. There are tools/plugins to re-balance the channels. But how you do the inital fund of the "other side of the cannel" (incoming?).

You can gain incoming liquidity in a couple of different ways:

- pay for some service/goods,
- use a third-party service to exchange your off-chan coins for on-chain ones (ex. Boltz, ZigZag),
- contact your channel partner and do the same as above (it will be much cheaper, but there's more trust involved),
- circular rebalance (only possible if you have at least two channels; one with lots of inbound liquidity and the other one with outbound capacity).

If you have a hard time understanding it, don't worry. Let me know and I will give you more detailed explanations for each case.

Also, c-lightning is currently the only implementation which supports dual-funded channels. Such channels might be balanced as soon as they are opened as both parties contribute funds. Note that this is still an experimental feature and very few nodes support it. I opened about 3 dual-funded channels with other bitcointalk members.

[n0nce]

[...]
Also, c-lightning is currently the only implementation which supports dual-funded channels. Such channels might be balanced as soon as they are opened as both parties contribute funds. Note that this is still an experimental feature and very few nodes support it. I opened about 3 dual-funded channels with other bitcointalk members.

Other ways to get inbound liquidity are:

• Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.
  
• Asking someone to create an inbound channel with you.
• Participating in a liquidity swap.
  

In the first two cases, you only get inbound liquidity. You will then need to create a 'outbound' channel which you fund and then theoretically that should suffice to rebalance them to be both roughly balanced.

[Rath_]

• Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.
  

The only catch is that those services reserve the right to close the channel at any time, especially if there isn't much activity.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend Lightning Lab's proprietary products to anyone. Liquidity ads are far more superior as they take advantage of dual-funding and the gossip protocol; you don't have to install any additional software. This feature is available only in c-lightning, but its developers are heavily working on including it in the official Lightning specification. Although, I don't expect LND devs to implement it quickly once the specs are finalised as that would kill their product.

[n0nce]

• Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.
  

The only catch is that those services reserve the right to close the channel at any time, especially if there isn't much activity.

Sure; they also increase centralization. Creating channels between each other with friends and community members is definitely going to be better for Lightning decentralization. Just wanted to put that out there.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend Lightning Lab's proprietary products to anyone. Liquidity ads are far more superior as they take advantage of dual-funding and the gossip protocol; you don't have to install any additional software. This feature is available only in c-lightning, but its developers are heavily working on including it in the official Lightning specification. Although, I don't expect LND devs to implement it quickly once the specs are finalised as that would kill their product.

Good point! It's not a secret that I'm not a fan of Lightning Labs / LND in general and what they've done against great additions like BOLT12. I actually meant to dig out liquidity ads, but found 'Lightning Pool' instead, sorry about that!

[konfuzius5278]

So.....after 4 days and I get a running Core Lightning node....but now....I could throw it out of the window......no plugin like GUI I get startet......and peers get immidiatly disconnected before I can fund them.... no idea what I am doing wrong 

And I thought the Bitcoin Core would be possible to dump the keys but the core has own Mainchain keys.....not sure if the exportet HEX file hsm_secret does its job..... 

[Rath_]

no plugin like GUI I get startet

There is no GUI. You need to install either RTL or spark wallet.

......and peers get immidiatly disconnected before I can fund them.... no idea what I am doing wrong  

Add the following lines to your config (replace DIRECTORY with any location that suits you the best):

Code:

log-file=DIRECTORY/lightning.log
log-level=debug

Restart your node, try opening a channel again and check the log file if it fails.

.not sure if the exportet HEX file hsm_secret does its job....

It is a backup of your node's on-chain wallet. You should also consider setting up a plugin which will back up your channels.

[Cricktor]

...

I have not yet used Core Lightning, so I might be on a wrong path to the darkness. You don't fund a peer, you fund a channel when you open one to a peer. You should give more details what exactly you tried to do, otherwise no Ligthning master can help you.

A lot to learn you have, patient with yourself and the Core Lightning force you must be, young padawan!

[darkv0rt3x]

Shouldn't you guys take this discussion to maybe a new thread? Or to the FAQ one?
Anyway, I'm pasting here my June month, regarding my forwards, which was a bit better but nothing out of the ordinary.

[BlackHatCoiner]

BlackHatCoiner's Lightning Vortex.
Current capacity: 0.07998659 BTC, from 8 channels.

July's report:

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

[Rath_]

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

You will eventually start charging fees as your channels become often unbalanced. And yes, there are people who earn thousands of sats every month. A few people shared their stats in the WO thread, but I can't find them at the moment.

You may also notice that quite a lot of nodes have their base fee set to zero. If you are wondering why that's the case, read about #zerobasefee.

[darkv0rt3x]

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

I didn't understand. You say that you have 0 base and 0 ppm, but then you say that you don't see a reason on charging so little money!
If you don't see reason to charge so little money, why you have your fees at 0? And another question is if you have both base and ppm at 0, how did you end up making sats?

[BlackHatCoiner]

[...]

So, the TL;DR is: Charge the sats you need to rebalance your channels?

I didn't understand. You say that you have 0 base and 0 ppm, but then you say that you don't see a reason on charging so little money!

Yes. I don't find a reason to charge 1 sat per transaction.

If you don't see reason to charge so little money, why you have your fees at 0?

Because, I don't see a reason to charge a little more than that.

And another question is if you have both base and ppm at 0, how did you end up making sats?

I wasn't free of charge at the start. Later I set it to 0.