The Lightning Network node experience

[darkv0rt3x]

It's [0, 0] currently on every channel. I'll leave it up like that, just to see how many transactions I will route in one month. Then, I may rise the ppm fee.

So, last month I have routed 315 transactions, moving a total of 5,066,008 satoshis, each moving 16,082 satoshis on average, free of charge!

I'm now changing the fee policy. The base fee rises to 1000 mSats and the fee rate (milli mSats) becomes 25. I'll update my forwarding statistics next month, let's see what I can grab that way. I don't know if it has happened to you, but I can't set change the fee rate to 25 with base fee 0.

You mean this:

Code:

$ lightning-cli -k setchannel id=744268x1405x1 feebase=0 feeppm=25
{
   "channels": [
      {
         "peer_id": "03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e",
         "channel_id": "7e08c2035b80d1d766b800e0361b72435ff3164f2534800ea319bda83e1e7c33",
         "short_channel_id": "744268x1405x1",
         "fee_base_msat": "0msat",
         "fee_proportional_millionths": 25,
         "minimum_htlc_out_msat": "1000msat",
         "maximum_htlc_out_msat": "830000000msat"
      }
   ]
}

[1714017887]

1714017887

[1714017887]

1714017887

[BlackHatCoiner]

Yes. It might work from lightning-cli, but not from RTL.

[darkv0rt3x]

Yes. It might work from lightning-cli, but not from RTL.

Can you set fees to a channel in RTL? Never seen the option. Never looked for it either! But I usually do these stuff from the command line!

[BlackHatCoiner]

It allows you to change the local fee policy, but once I change it to [0, 25], I open it up again to confirm, and it says [1000, 25].

[darkv0rt3x]

It allows you to change the local fee policy, but once I change it to [0, 25], I open it up again to confirm, and it says [1000, 25].

Can you point me exactly here is that option to change fees? I can't find it!

Edit;
Ohh, I found it, nevermind!

Probably worth of opening an issue maybe. I'll try to change our channel fees to see if I have the same behaviour!

Edit 1;
Mine, keeps the setting. I had it [base, ppm] = [0, 25] and changed it to [base, ppm] = [100, 500] and then changed back to [base, ppm] = [0, 25] and after cicking update an open again the menu, the values were stick to the [base, ppm] = [0, 25].

Going to check in the command line, step at a step! To rule out any visual glitch from the frontend.

Edit 2;

So:

Step 1 - Change fees to [base, ppm] = [100, 500] in RTL. Wait a few seconds.
Step 2 - Check in command line:

Code:

lightning-cli listchannels 744268x1405x1
{
   "channels": [
      {
         "source": "03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e",
         "destination": "03fef777d58a529df02a3fb267690e0c9033767b555cc1c63844bb2d3498789f91",
         "short_channel_id": "744268x1405x1",
         "public": true,
         "satoshis": 1300000,
         "amount_msat": "1300000000msat",
         "message_flags": 1,
         "channel_flags": 0,
         "active": true,
         "last_update": 1660473314,
         "base_fee_millisatoshi": 1000,
         "fee_per_millionth": 25,
         "delay": 34,
         "htlc_minimum_msat": "0msat",
         "htlc_maximum_msat": "1287000000msat",
         "features": ""
      },
      {
         "source": "03fef777d58a529df02a3fb267690e0c9033767b555cc1c63844bb2d3498789f91",
         "destination": "03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e",
         "short_channel_id": "744268x1405x1",
         "public": true,
         "satoshis": 1300000,
         "amount_msat": "1300000000msat",
         "message_flags": 1,
         "channel_flags": 1,
         "active": true,
         "last_update": 1660559820,
         "base_fee_millisatoshi": 100, <-------- Correct
         "fee_per_millionth": 500,       <-------- Correct
         "delay": 34,
         "htlc_minimum_msat": "1000msat",
         "htlc_maximum_msat": "830000000msat",
         "features": ""
      }
   ]
}

Step 3 - Change fees to [base, ppm] = [0, 25]  in RTL and wait a few seconds.
Step 4 - Check in RTL if values are still there by going to the Update Fees menu again. They are still there
Step 4 - Check in command line

Code:

$ lightning-cli listchannels 744268x1405x1
{
   "channels": [
      {
         "source": "03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e",
         "destination": "03fef777d58a529df02a3fb267690e0c9033767b555cc1c63844bb2d3498789f91",
         "short_channel_id": "744268x1405x1",
         "public": true,
         "satoshis": 1300000,
         "amount_msat": "1300000000msat",
         "message_flags": 1,
         "channel_flags": 0,
         "active": true,
         "last_update": 1660473314,
         "base_fee_millisatoshi": 1000,
         "fee_per_millionth": 25,
         "delay": 34,
         "htlc_minimum_msat": "0msat",
         "htlc_maximum_msat": "1287000000msat",
         "features": ""
      },
      {
         "source": "03fef777d58a529df02a3fb267690e0c9033767b555cc1c63844bb2d3498789f91",
         "destination": "03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e",
         "short_channel_id": "744268x1405x1",
         "public": true,
         "satoshis": 1300000,
         "amount_msat": "1300000000msat",
         "message_flags": 1,
         "channel_flags": 1,
         "active": true,
         "last_update": 1660560197,
         "base_fee_millisatoshi": 0, <-------- Correct
         "fee_per_millionth": 25,     <-------- Correct
         "delay": 34,
         "htlc_minimum_msat": "1000msat",
         "htlc_maximum_msat": "830000000msat",
         "features": ""
      }
   ]
}

So, on my side, things seems to be working!

[n0nce]

It allows you to change the local fee policy, but once I change it to [0, 25], I open it up again to confirm, and it says [1000, 25].

I've played around with this recently on command-line and RTL. The latter is a little buggy, but it does work.
I believe it consistently sets the new fee policy, just that the old value is still cached. Or it delays the RPC call. In any way; if you set it through the GUI and check back a while later, maybe even after closing and reopening the dashboard, it does show the new values perfectly fine.

darkv0rt3x, in case you're comfortable disclosing this; do you run RTL through clearnet / local network or Tor? I believe BlackHatCoiner and me connect to the dashboard through Tor - maybe there's heavier caching due to slow Tor performance? Just a hypothesis.

[Rath_]

I know my reply is slightly late, but you still might find it interesting.

So, you prefer paying a third party monthly to watch the chain in case for cheating attempt, wherein there's trust involved and you don't gain the same level of privacy, and not paying for a power supplier, to be sure you'll be running 24/7?

I don't think that there are any paid watchtower services as none of the available implementations support reward watchtowers. The privacy is not an issue either. Watchtowers receive encrypted penalty transactions which can be decrypted only if an outdated commitment transaction is published.

Here you can learn about LND's implemenation. I believe that lightningnetwork.plus is the most popular altruistic watchtower service. As for c-lightning, I know that a watchtower plugin exists, but I have never used it.

Cheating happens publicly, not privately. You could open a case accusing me, with valid evidence. Anyone could, even people whom I've never talked to. Broadcasting a penalty transaction means one of the two is a scammer, de facto, and the honest user can prove the other guilty by showing their commitments.

You can't tell if someone tried to cheat or if it was an accident (due to a bug or an outdated backup).

[Rath_]

Here are the stats for June and July. I haven't been paying much attention to my Lightning node lately - I rarely adjusted my feerates and I didn't rebalance any of my channels. I am sorry for occasional downtime. It took me a while to figure out what was was causing my Internet connection to go down regularly.

June:



July: 39 routed transactions, 34 (!) of which were free of charge.

[Rath_]

Here are the stats for August. Another unimpressive month. I have just updated c-lightning to v0.12.0 since it introduced support for static channel backups. I will play around with them and I will report back soon what I have learned.

[darkv0rt3x]

Here is my report for August:

[n0nce]

I only routed 2 payments in August!
Probably just too few and too small channels. Even though it doesn't see much use as a routing node at all, it works great for personal usage; so it's connected well enough to allow me to send and receive payments almost without issues.

[darkv0rt3x]

Here is my reports from both September and October

September


October

[n0nce]

I routed 4 payments in October. 

October

Wow, 14 payments and over 1000 sats in fees is pretty nice! Did you change something between September and October? Maybe towards the end of October?

[Rath_]

Here are my statistics for September. I didn't make any changes to my settings in the last few months.



As for October, I routed only one small payment, free of charge.

[darkv0rt3x]

I routed 4 payments in October. 

(image removed by me for easier reading)

October
(image removed by me for easier reading)

Wow, 14 payments and over 1000 sats in fees is pretty nice! Did you change something between September and October? Maybe towards the end of October?

The only thing I change is the fees.
The number of payments where quite higer because I had a couple of channels with both fee settings at 0 (base and fee_ppm)
In fact, from the 14events, only 5 were charged with fees. And from those 5, 3 of them are in the same channel with a pretty decent node (Boltz). I balance this channel quite frequently. Mayabe once a month. I'm actually doing it as we speak!

[Rath_]

Here are the stats for November. My node has routed only two transactions: one small free-of-charge payment and one large payment for an over 200 satoshi fee.

[n0nce]

~

Is your node up? Our connection dropped.

[Rath_]

Is your node up? Our connection dropped.

My node is going to be down for the next couple of days. I might bring it up once in a while so that it can catch up with the network. I am moving again, sorry about that!

[AGD]

Guess it's just what other nodes we are connected to and how much is in the channels.

Yeah, it depends a ton about who you're connecting to and also the size of those channels. To maximize routing and profits, some people actually manually monitor their channels. Some recommendations I picked up:

* Don't create channel between 2 already connected nodes. (e.g. check via LN explorers)
* If a channel isn't routing anything for a long time, close it.
* If a channel starts to get used much, but only in one direction, rebalance it so it continues being used.
* Look for nodes with much usage, but no 1-hop connection and connect them through you.
* Adapt fees up / down in the channels that are used much, like sometimes your fees are just too high; sometimes users keep paying if you increase them since you're the only route to some location.

This is just off the top of my mind, not sure if I can find the original 'list' anymore. We may just create a new thread for that. I don't feel qualified for it myself though, since I was never a big routing node myself.

With regards to 'LN node experience', I will post in here in the future when I find the time to write down all my experiences and make a concise but informative post of it.

Just a few thoughts:

* Don't create channel between 2 already connected nodes. (e.g. check via LN explorers)

While this might be true with some of the biggest nodes, sometimes opening a channel between 2 connected nodes can help with rebalancing. You are creating a triangle that can possibly rebalance within one or two hops.

* If a channel isn't routing anything for a long time, close it.

Sometimes a channel doesn`t route, because liquidity is on the wrong side, or you need another channel with one of other node´s partners to see sats flowing through it. If liquididity stays on your side for too long, try to rebalance another channel with that liquidity and watch if the node pushes back those sats.

When other nodes are opening a channel to mine, I try to rebalance that channel for a reasonable fee and put my fee about 50-100% higher. Let`s say I pay 200ppm for the rebalance. I would start with a fee of 400ppm and go slowly (about 1-2 times a day) down in like 10ppm steps until a routing takes place. If a node doesn´t route anything for a few months, I pull all the liquidity to my side and close the channel.

[n0nce]

Just a few thoughts:

* Don't create channel between 2 already connected nodes. (e.g. check via LN explorers)

While this might be true with some of the biggest nodes, sometimes opening a channel between 2 connected nodes can help with rebalancing. You are creating a triangle that can possibly rebalance within one or two hops.

True, good point!

* If a channel isn't routing anything for a long time, close it.

Sometimes a channel doesn`t route, because liquidity is on the wrong side, or you need another channel with one of other node´s partners to see sats flowing through it. If liquididity stays on your side for too long, try to rebalance another channel with that liquidity and watch if the node pushes back those sats.

Oh yes, that was assuming a balanced channel (enough funds on either side to theoretically move if there was any demand for it).

When other nodes are opening a channel to mine, I try to rebalance that channel for a reasonable fee and put my fee about 50-100% higher. Let`s say I pay 200ppm for the rebalance. I would start with a fee of 400ppm and go slowly (about 1-2 times a day) down in like 10ppm steps until a routing takes place. If a node doesn´t route anything for a few months, I pull all the liquidity to my side and close the channel.

Sounds good!