What's up with the flaunting of irreversibility?

[jostorres]

How can I, as a customer, be protected my malicious sellers? I can't really use an escrow service every time, I need to ensure the seller will be discouraged to steal my money with a smarter, cheaper and more comfortable way. For instance, PayPal transactions are reversible within a time frame of 6 months. I could address them.

There is nothing else that you can do apart from making use of escrow and trying to find out whether the seller can bereliablebefore doing any kind of business with them. I’m by the way you shouldn’t report such cases to the police if cryptocurrency is not a legal asset or tender in your country. Reporting a case of cryptocurrency transaction to a law enforcement agency in a country where cryptocurrency is declared illegal, is going to land you into a serious problem.

So, first of all nobody legal status of cryptocurrency in your country before you take such a step. But, I would advise you to always deal with people that you know are trustworthy, and not just some strangers that you would see online.

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[dothebeats]

Used to work at an online retail store handling payment disputes between buyers and sellers, and most of the time it only favors the buyers, while the sellers are almost always left with no option but to take the loss on their side.

The thing with reversible transactions is that anyone can make up a story that favors them, and ultimately win the appeal even if the story is purely fabricated. Most of the time, adjudicators only listen to the side of those who paid and never really ask the side of the seller. Transaction reversibility is a two-way street, that no matter where you look, there will always be a losing side. That's why it's highly important to choose which marketplaces are you going to deal with when using crypto. Not every seller is honest and will deliver the goods, but the same goes with buyers, too.

It's definitely a legitimate question, OP. It's just that IMO, there isn't really any right side between the two as the merits and demerits of transaction reversibility varies depending on the nature of the situation.

[mk4]

The reversal doesn't just happen with the clicking of a button. The procedure is durative as you'll have to provide evidence you've got victim of a fraud.

Who do you provide the "evidence" to though? The CEO of Bitcoin?

Having reversibility can be advantageous in some cases like you described, but this should be implemented in a platform made specifically for buying and selling stuff, not on the Bitcoin protocol itself.

Used to work at an online retail store handling payment disputes between buyers and sellers, and most of the time it only favors the buyers, while the sellers are almost always left with no option but to take the loss on their side.

*snip*

Yeap, you pretty much described PayPal. 

[pooya87]

A- The merchants using the first way will get scammed very easily and they can't do much about it.

How's that? You mean the customers?

No, the first method is a reversible method (like PayPal) and lots of merchants receiving payment through reversible methods are getting scammed every day.
You can search the keyword "PayPal chargeback scam" and see the complaints.

So if there were reversible transactions you can bet that all merchants are going to be scammed every day.

Irreversible like Bitcoin? They don't. You mean reversible like PayPal?

Fixed the typo.

C- The merchant can also not know who the user is so they can't tell if the user is a scammer or an honest  customer.

Isn't PayPal responsible for this?

Not really. They are just providing a payment processing and a wallet service, they do minimum checks but they can't prevent someone from going through all those checks and still scam a merchant. If they could there wouldn't have been so many scams happening!

[BlackHatCoiner]

Who do you provide the "evidence" to though? The CEO of Bitcoin?

I was talking about PayPal. Reversing a transaction in PayPal requires to address them. A bitcoin transaction cannot be reversed, however you may get your money back if you make a complaint to the police.

And I'm wondering, what counts as evidence with Bitcoin?

You can search the keyword "PayPal chargeback scam" and see the complaints.

Nonetheless, PayPal gives you tips to avoid these cases.

Not really. They are just providing a payment processing and a wallet service, they do minimum checks but they can't prevent someone from going through all those checks and still scam a merchant. If they could there wouldn't have been so many scams happening!

And yet, much less scams happen from the merchants' side. Isn't it a double-edged sword?

[pealr12]

Why should it be considered as an advantage and where did you read it as an advantage of btc? The irreversible transaction is part of the things you should be aware of while using btc for transactions since that's the way it was designed, in the case of having a buyer's protection like ebay for refunds on item not received or things like, it is not possible with crypto as it is in fiat, you can see it as a disadvantage and not advantage.

[topbitcoin]

If me, because that "irreversibility" is part of crypto, since i joined in this kind of community then i will accept something that can't be change, maybe keep suspicious to other people is something that we must do. Because once we're careless, scammer will take it as their advantage and then stole our money. And for Paypal, sometimes scammer can made that reversible thing as advantage too because they can ask refund and if we lose in position, we can lose our money because refunded to scammer. My point is scammer will have a lot of ways to steal people's money and it is better that we always guard ourself.

[suzanne5223]

That is the point, that is the reason we "flaunt the irreversibility" because once I hand you cash it's yours, once I send you BTC it's yours.

And if you're a fraud, it's yours. Not mine. That's what I'm saying.

Yes, it is.
Understand for every great opportunity there must be a great sacrifice. I know if the cryptocurrency transaction reverse is introduced it will be a great benefit to everyone but what makes you think the same people that abused the freedom and decentralization of Bitcoin won't abuse the reverse features since Bitcoin is not governed when you and I?

I think the irreversibility of crypto is still a great advantage since only the sender has to be security conscious.

[Artemis3]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is this.

The answer is simple: If you allow reverses, you are letting someone the power to discriminate you, if you want that, go back to fiat.

The responsibility falls entirely in you. So don't get scammed, and if you do, go after the culprit, leave Bitcoin alone.
If someone makes an altcoin such as Ethereum, where one or few people can decide what transaction goes and what doesn't, go back to fiat.

The whole point of Bitcoin is to remove the power from these (any) people, otherwise they may decide tomorrow to block your transactions on a whim.

Its all or nothing. Either it works for ALL, or it works for NOBODY.
This is one reason why Bitcoin is so valuable, while the rest are not.

The power to discriminate should never exist. If someone is a criminal or not, that is outside of the code, its none of Bitcoin business. Otherwise you open a can of worms, some selected elites will abuse this power, because you are not of their country, or share their beliefs, or whatever.

The whole point of Bitcoin is freedom from all this nonsense.

Transactions are FINAL, there is no turning back. Want protection? Use a mutually trusted middle party, so called escrow, etc. That is your choice, just like you can ask a bank to store your bitcoins and handle them your keys. A foolish choice in my opinion, but a choice that is OPTIONAL, and not MANDATORY.

Reverse a transaction and you will lose trust forever. You are declaring the world that your garbage coin is as trusty as the whim of their creator or dev team or whatever small group of elite controls it or get coerced to. NOBODY can turn back a transaction in bitcoin, not even Satoshi, and that is PRICELESS.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm leaving this question for anyone who's willing to enlighten me:  If Bitcoin doesn't favor the buyer, but we want it to be adopted, how will we convince the buyer to use that, instead, if this very reason discourages them?

But what I'm curious about is why you linked this to commerce, if you would want to make a case against irreversibility there are other things where is a lot worse, just how in some others it would be the obvious preferable solution.

I didn't mean that irreversibility is a complete disadvantage for the people in general, but it really depends on which side of the shopping you're at. Could you name me these few, other things that are a lot worse?

The responsibility falls entirely in you. So don't get scammed, and if you do, go after the culprit, leave Bitcoin alone.
If someone makes an altcoin such as Ethereum, where one or few people can decide what transaction goes and what doesn't, go back to fiat.

I never said that bitcoin should change to a highly censoring currency with reversible transactions. I'm just thinking what's better for me to use. It seems it's bitcoin, because I don't want from anybody to know what I'm buying, but the downside is this.

I didn't badmouth bitcoin.

That is your choice, just like you can ask a bank to store your bitcoins and handle them your keys. A foolish choice in my opinion, but a choice that is OPTIONAL, and not MANDATORY.

Couldn't agree more.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If Bitcoin doesn't favor the buyer, but we want it to be adopted, how will we convince the buyer to use that, instead, if this very reason discourages them?

Because of all the other benefits bitcoin brings. Sovereignty over my own money. Privacy if I want it. Censorship resistant. No third parties. Etc.

Sure, irreversibility provides a greater benefit for the merchant than for the buyer, but I have never once been discouraged from using bitcoin as a currency because of its irreversibility, and I have never once been scammed or lost bitcoin because I actually pay attention to what I'm doing and who I'm trading with. If you can't trust yourself to pay attention to your money or not to be scammed, then sure, maybe a reversible currency where a third party can step in and save you from yourself is a better option in your case.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Because of all the other benefits bitcoin brings. Sovereignty over my own money. Privacy if I want it. Censorship resistant. No third parties. Etc.

I sometimes forget to return from the Joe's view. Yep, these are decent reasons.

[hatshepsut93]

People say that merchants will love Bitcoin because of this and will hurry to adopt it and will offer lower prices, because they won't have to pay fees to payment processor if they accept Bitcoin on chain.

But, the merchants should do what's better for the client. Especially, if it's a recently-made business that exists exclusively in the internet. I can't trust them my money if I don't have another trusted third party.

Merchants are doing what's best for their profits, and reducing risks means minimizing loses, which means more profits. They don't exist to purely serve the clients, serving clients is means to an end, not the end itself.

However, I think this factor is not very relevant, because merchants don't see any point in supporting a payment method that their customers are not using, it would just be a waste of resources to implement it.

[stompix]

I didn't mean that irreversibility is a complete disadvantage for the people in general, but it really depends on which side of the shopping you're at. Could you name me these few, other things that are a lot worse?

Simply, in most cases is involving theft.
A guy could put a knife at your throat ask you to unlock your phone and that's it all your coins are gone. With a bank account or a credit card, you still have a chance! Same for everyone that gets its computer infected with malware or anything else, if I get an alert that at 2 pm my cc is being used somewhere in a store in Dubai I get on the phone and block it, if I get an alert that my transaction just get confirmed...well fuck...
By mistake entered the wrong address, you're at the mercy of the one who holds it, you sent btc to bshit, the same thing.

Cases and cases.
Could somebody force me to go to an atm and withdraw the maximum allowed money, yeah he could, does he know I have access to x10 more in btc he could get in a split second if I'm smart enough? Nope!  

Pros and cons in everything, if we will have all the cars on the earth automatically stop 2 meters from a person to prevent things like the last even in Waukesha, there will be a band that will simply enter the highway stopping everybody and robbing them, if you piss your neighbor he will just send his kid in your drive way every time you get close to the car and block you. Every single thing can be abused and has flaws and in some situations, there is always a better one.

[franky1]

Who do you provide the "evidence" to though? The CEO of Bitcoin?

I was talking about PayPal. Reversing a transaction in PayPal requires to address them. A bitcoin transaction cannot be reversed, however you may get your money back if you make a complaint to the police.

paypal is not dollar.

paypal is an escrow
you cannot compare paypal to bitcoin

paypal is comparable to all the bitcoin escrow services.
a bank note has no reversibility

if you deposit into an escrow (localbitcoins) they have their own claims process.

so in your arguments. try to keep to the correct analogies
bank note=bitcoin
paypal=escrow(localbitcoins)

after all in the fiat world you would not trust sending bank notes to a strangers PO box when buying something on ebay, that WHY YOU CHOOSE TO USE PAYPAL
so with bitcoin if you dont trust sending bitcoin direct USE AN ESCROW

oh, and if bitcoin did have a reversibility feature. what stops them reversing the reserve of the reverse. meaning no one can trust a confirmation anymore, even a refund of a fraud cant be trusted as the fraudster can then reverse their funds seizure.
it just opens up a whole bag of trouble of killing the purpose of bitoin..
.. oh wait your one of the altnet 'channel routing' lovers that want to break bitcoin to promote your altnet..
.. now i understand why your so emotionally hyped about wanting to break a bitcoin fundamental feature

maybe i have got you all wrong and you simply were recruited into these altnets before having time to learn what bitcoin is and does. so i hope you can take the time to learn about confirmation finality and its purpose, utility, benefit. and not simply ignore it to try tearing it apart in efforts to promote how your altnet is better

[o_e_l_e_o]

Every single thing can be abused and has flaws and in some situations, there is always a better one.

This, exactly. If you allow reversing some bitcoin transactions when fraud was involved, then bitcoin becomes no better than any other centralized currency. If you allow spying on some users' communication, then everyone's communication is at risk. If you ban some speech because you don't like it, then nobody has free speech anymore.

If you want bitcoin to be decentralized and censorship resistant, then you cannot possibly have some centralized entity deciding which transactions can be unilaterally reversed.

oh, and if bitcoin did have a reversibility feature. what stops them reversing the reserve of the reverse.

Not only that, but what if someone reverses a transaction I've already spent? You send me coins, I spend the coins at a merchant, and then you reverse your payment, leaving the merchant out of pocket and me responsible for it. Not to mention you could end up invalidating whole chains of transactions. Unless you say once the coins have moved they can't be reversed, which would just flood the network with absolutely everybody sending every transaction they receive to another address they own to bypass the reversibility feature. Completely unworkable.

[OgNasty]

Maybe a dumb question, but why should I display irreversibility as an advantage? I recently made a transaction using bitcoin and waited for long time to receive what I purchased. So long that I thought I got scammed.

How can I, as a customer, be protected my malicious sellers? I can't really use an escrow service every time, I need to ensure the seller will be discouraged to steal my money with a smarter, cheaper and more comfortable way. For instance, PayPal transactions are reversible within a time frame of 6 months. I could address them.

How can the police confirm I've got scammed and not lied? It's definitely harder than with cash if the seller knows how things work.

This has always been a problem with crypto. It is why reputation is so important and frivolous use of the trust system should not be accepted by the community. I haven’t seen anyone come up with a good solution for this issue, but perhaps we must accept that cryptocurrencies have their limitations and in the end it comes down to dealing with people who have solid reputations and honest intentions.

[Gyfts]

It's a double edged sword, I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to argue that irreversibility in p2p transactions is the epitome of a pristine economic system, it's far from it. You incur risk any time you send a transaction because there is no do-overs, that risk is mitigated by common sense, and that risk becomes your advantage when the roles are reversed and you become the seller.