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Author Topic: Everything you wanted to know about ES Volcano Bond and were afraid to ask!  (Read 1567 times)
fillippone (OP)
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December 15, 2021, 12:27:01 PM
Last edit: May 15, 2023, 10:28:35 PM by fillippone
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 #1

During the last event of “Bitcoin Week'', "Feel the Bit", in El Salvador last November 20th, President Nayib Bukele announced a project for the first El Salvador bitcoin bond issue, nicknamed ESBB1.

The project is quite convoluted, having financial, technological, and practical implications. We will cover all of these, but I will try to focus more on the economic and technical aspects of this, leaving the discussion of the details of the Bitcoin City part of the citizenship project to other threads.



1. The Masterplan

El Salvador, the only country in which bitcoin is a legal tender, announced a debt issuance to raise capital in order to "accelerate hyperbitcoinization and bring about a new financial system on top of Bitcoin," according to a blog post by Blockstream. Half of the Proceeds of the bonds will be used to build a new city, nicknamed “Bitcoin City”, in the Gulf of Fonseca, in the immediate vicinity of an active volcano, whose geothermal energy will be used not only to power the city itself but also to mine bitcoins. The city would have no income, property, capital gain or labour taxes but would be financed only by a 10% sales tax.



As only half of the capital will be used to build this “bitcoin infrastructure”, the other half of the bond sale proceeds will be used to pay a special “bitcoin dividend” to the bondholders, which would significantly raise the final bond yield. The plan is to use such capital to buy bitcoins on the market, hodl them for five years, and then subsequently return part of the appreciation of those to the investor across the last five years of the bonds in the form of an annual coupon payment financed by the sell of a corresponding amount of those bitcoins.
Thirdly, the investor who buys more than 100,000 USD of the bond would have the possibility to apply for El Salvador citizenship.
The bond is meant to be fully tokenised in a wholly digital form developed with Blockstream. This would allow the decentralised exchange of the bond using the Liquid sidechain. The bond purchase will be possible in USD, BTC, and USDT, and, given the unique digital feature, the minimum purchase amount would be 100 USD only. This feature will help “democratise access to the bond”.

If you want to discuss the masterplan of El Salvador and the construction of the Bitcoin City, I suggest you this thread:

First Bitcoin City

 


2. The Bond details

Few details have emerged so far. The only details are those revealed at such a conference and a few later interviews with Bitcoin entrepreneur Samson Mow, as President Nayib Bukele didn’t attend a press conference meant to give out more details.

 
The termsheet of the bond was published on a presentation slide and reads as follows:



According to the Termsheet

  • The bond will be issued in January 2022. It will be US dollar-denominated (USD is legal tender in El Salvador) and with a potential size of 1 billion.
  • The bond will mature in 10 years, or January 2032 and will pay an annual coupon of 6.5%.
  • After the first five years, the bond will start selling an equal amount of bitcoin each quarter. The sale has been spread over multiple quarters to minimise market impact.
  • After the initial bitcoin purchase has been covered, the bond will start paying an additional “bitcoin dividend”. The bond will pay an additional coupon determined as the 50% of the potential bitcoin gain from selling the 20% of the bitcoin held by the bond. If the proceeds of such a sale produce a profit, this will be shared in equal parts with the investor.
  • Remember that the bond will use only 50% of the funds to buy bitcoin. So the “bitcoin dividend” will pay to the investor 50% of the gain on that 50% investment.

In the following example, you can see all the cash flow of the bond, according to the bitcoin price in the second row:


 Spreadsheet

Blockstream, a Canadian blockchain solutions company, helped El Salvador to structure the bond, working in close connection over the last few months. In addition, the government is going to issue a few particular laws for Bitfinex actually to sell the bond:
Quote
El Salvador also aims to create a government securities law and grant Bitfinex Securities licenses to process the bond issuance. This could pave the way for other Liquid security tokens like the Blockstream Mining Note (BMN) or Exordium (EXO) token to be listed on a regulated El Salvadorian securities exchange.

This will probably take some time; providing the issuer and the operation arrangements with a legal framework within which to operate is an incredibly demanding task. But, above all, this one is the first experiment with so many aspects to consider.

To my knowledge, this bond will be the first fully-fledged digital bond in the world. The bond will be traded on Blockstream AMP, a platform used to issue, trade, and manage digital assets issued on the Liquid Network. The trading activity would be entirely digital, 24/7 (weekends and bank holidays included then) over a blockchain (albeit a permissioned one) on a fully digital form: not only the bond part of the trade will be digital, but also the “purchase “ part will be fully digital, through either fiat, BTC or stablecoins. This would drive costs down for both the issuer and the investors.
The actual trading would be done with the interface of Bitfinex, which will provide onboarding, a matching engine, and order processing of the orders and trades.

In this spreadsheet , you can find a copy of the termsheet.


3. El Salvador as an issuer in traditional finance

El Salvador has a poor financial situation. The country has a CCC+ rating. Essentially, their financial stability is rated as “junk”.
This condition precluded the country from accessing traditional financial markets, as many money managers cannot buy Junk Bonds and those who can require high premiums to do so.
El Salvador has a few outstanding bonds:



As you can see, there are only 12 bonds maturing from 2023 up to 2052. Remember that the US has over a few hundred available bonds to construct the same bond curve.

The yield curve is as follows:
El Salvador Yield Curve: it's inverted; shorter maturities require higher yield.

This graph plots the maturity date of each El Salvador bond, coupling each maturity with the associated yield: the resulting line is called the "Yield Curve" and plots the line we would like to use to exchange capital in time. Usually, those slopes are tilted upwards. Whatever the issuer, if I lend the money, I want to receive a higher premium for letting someone use such for a long time because of the credit risk. Credit risk, which represents the risk of the borrower not returning the funds, ideally increases with time.

Shorter maturities require higher yields; this is quite common across distressed issuers. Basically, the idea is the following: if you manage to navigate through the immediate difficulties, later things will probably be much better, so a lower premium will be required. This produces these weird "inverse" yield curves you don't usually see amongst more credit-worthy issuers.

Since the introduction of the Bitcoin Law and the subsequent friction with the IMF, El Salvador bonds have been losing premium constantly, with yields going north (remember that if the price of a bond falls, the implied yields grow, an inverse relation).
 
El Salvador Sovereign Yield Curve compared to what it was three months ago.
A big shift upwards. The current curve should be comparable with the above one in Google Sheets.
El Salvador 10Y yield during last months: up from 12.50% to 16.00%.


ESBB1 would be somewhat depressed in terms of yield, considering the bonds in the curve. However, just remember that this would include the lower amount of bitcoin; in case of a good underlying bitcoin appreciation, the final yield would be better.



4. How this bond compares to traditional investment

Since the conference, the Bitcoin community cheered at the bond announcement, as it is seen as a way to help the hyperbitcoinisation in El Salvador. Of course, Bitcoin City symbolised this, but the bond carries another light financially.

To cut a long story short: this bond is a financial disaster.

An excellent analysis of this concept from a Bloomberg article. Basically, buying an El Salvador Bond and using the residual amount to buy bitcoin currently produces a superior result. And this holds true in pretty much every possible future scenario. Even in a very unpredictable scenario of bitcoin going to zero, the payoff would be better for the traditional finance bond. In an environment where bitcoin would go to zero, we are left wondering why we should buy a Volcano Bond in the first place.

I ran a few computations in the spreadsheet. Even in the ultra-bullish case illustrated by Samson Mow, the Volcano Bond is inferior to the strategy of buying a traditional bond and investing the change left after the bond purchase in bitcoin.



Summarising what is written in the article, instead of buying the bitcoin bond, a superior strategy would be to buy a regular bond instead, for example, the EL SAVL 2032 with an annual 8.5% coupon, trading at 65 cents. This would imply a cash flow of 65,000 USD. This would leave the possibility to invest the residual 35,000 USD into bitcoin. The combined investments would be superior to the bitcoin bond in any state of the world.
 
So why on Earth should anyone buy a Vulcano bond if we just demonstrated that it is an inferior choice?


Well, the reason is always the same: not every investor has access to physical bitcoins.
This is the very reason why there is a market for vehicles like GBTC, future-based ETF, or even Microstrategy, or vaguely Bitcoin-related companies that get purchased by investors in the desperate willingness to gain bitcoin exposure.
Many money managers have constraints on what they can buy as investments. And many of those can not simply buy physical bitcoins, or even if they could theoretically buy the thing; then they would have compliance, custodial, fiscal, or accounting problems.
So yes, many suboptimal investment vehicles exist for this very right reason.
The problem with this particular bond is that I find it very difficult for an investment manager who cannot buy bitcoin to buy a Junk Bond not traded on a traditional financial market. Many managers have a threshold for the creditworthiness of the debt issuers, and for sure, the rating of El Salvador is well below this threshold, sitting at CCC+.
Also, a problem is the nature of the digital bond, where there is no centralised venue for trading, which could spell issues for many investors.


 

5. How this bond is innovating the financial system
 
There is a fascinating detail about the bond. This is the first fully digital bond in the world. Many experiments have been done, but this is the first time a sovereign entity has issued a digital bond that can also be transacted with digital assets, namely BTC and USDT. Blockstream, which by the way, is an unlisted Canadian firm, issued a similar bond, but I guess the scale is so different.
There is an exciting part about this in the Stephan Livera podcast:

Quote
Stephan Livera:

True, true. So yeah, you’ve got to think about that also. And so I guess then, in terms of operationally, is it going to be essentially trading, like do you have to become a customer at Bitfinex to get the bond? Or how would you actually buy it?

Samson Mow:

Right. So Bitfinex is going to be the initial exchange that is releasing the bond. So they will be getting the first license, allowing them to issue this security. So I think anyone that wants the first bond would go through Bitfinex to buy it, but once you have it — so let’s take one step back — these bonds are issued as a token on the Liquid network, and they do have a permissioned part, and that’s done with Blockstream AMP, our asset management platform. So it’s effectively a two-of-two multisig. So you would go to Bitfinex, do your KYC, you would be added to the AMP allowlist, and then if you and I are both on the AMP allowlist, then we can withdraw it to any wallet that supports Liquid in AMP assets. And we can OTC trade it back and forth with one another, just like the Blockchain Mining Note. So there’s a Telegram channel and people are already trading the BMN OTC daily. But there is no marketplace. There’s no secondary exchange marketplace, but they can freely trade that. And that would be the same case for any bondholder. So you could trade it and buy and sell it with any other bondholder.

So here we have a fully digital, decentralised OTC trading environment. This is the future of traditional markets. But I guess a few institutional players are already ready for that.
This is true not only from a technological point of view, as implementing this should be trivial, but above all, from a compliance and regulation point of view.



Just remember that even if these bonds can be traded in a decentralised way, they are not decentralised at all. There is a central registrar anyway.
Again on the SLP:

Quote
Stephan Livera:

You could withdraw the token of this bond to your Blockstream Jade and have it on that. And so actually, I’m curious then as well, like how would it work if, as an example, let’s say you lost the seed words for your Blockstream Jade—how would that aspect of it work? Is there a central registrar of it? Is that what AMP is providing here?

Samson Mow:

Yes, effectively. So AMP would allow the service to blacklist those tokens because they’re lost now. And because it is—like, this is not decentralised, right? We should not pretend like these bonds are decentralised. They’re not. They are a security, and that’s why you have to KYC, and you have to be added to a whitelist to be able to trade them and withdraw from the exchange, of course. So what would happen is the service would blacklist those old tokens and then issue new ones for you. So the net circulating supply would not change because some of the tokens are now out of circulation, but there is a way to get them back. And we’ve had that with EXO for Infinite Fleet. Someone lost their keys, actually. So they’re going actually to get new tokens from STOCKR. So there is recourse if you lose your key—it is not Bitcoin. It’s a bond tokenised with Bitcoin in it.

This is crucial.
The failure to understand that centralisation of the asset control and the centralisation of the exchange are two separate concepts is a classic error many legacy financial institutions make daily while speaking of "blockchain" and "decentralised assets".

In addition to that, another crucial aspect is the technology behind it. All your favourite digital assets, NFT, tokens or whatever thing you are interested in is based on some shitty blockchain, namely ETH. Not this one. The technology here is 100% Bitcoin. Liquid is a Bitcoin Sidechain. All this is being made with "traditional, slow, polluting" Bitcoin technology.
Also, this is a significant selling point for the bond and, for sure, an actual use case test for Liquid to become the backbone of the new financial market.



6. further resources




Fillippone "everything you wanted to know about.." threads:







This post is eligible for my project:


Quote
I am a strong believer in the utility of local boards.
I am lucky enough to be able to express myself in at least a couple of languages, but I know this is not the case for everyone.
A lot of users post only in the local boards because of a variety of reasons  either language or cultural barriers, lack of interest or whatever other reason.
I personally know a lot of very good users (from the italian sections mainly, for obvious reason) who doesn't post in the international sections.

I think all those users they are missing a lot of good contents posted on the international (english) section or on other boards.

If you think you can help here, just visit the thread!

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December 15, 2021, 03:02:16 PM
Merited by hugeblack (3), fillippone (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #2

4. How this Bond compares to traditional investment.
[~snip~]
Cutting long story short: this bond is a financial disaster.

This was the part I was looking for.
I understand that certain entities prefer to invest into bitcoin related products instead of bitcoin itself because it may be easier from legal, accountancy and maybe also from tech/safety point of view.

Still, for us, individuals who already got to this forum, and can read the few words about buying bitcoin and keeping it safe, buying bitcoin related products instead of actual bitcoin makes no sense.
And yes, there's always the risk that some of such bitcoin related products, like these volcano bonds, are a "financial disaster". And in most cases those details are pretty well hidden.

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December 15, 2021, 03:46:44 PM
 #3


Still, for us, individuals who already got to this forum, and can read the few words about buying bitcoin and keeping it safe, buying bitcoin related products instead of actual bitcoin makes no sense.

This.
There is no "diversification" thing.
You are just adding layers of potential problems to something that is meant to be trustless.

The reasoning is partially different for financial institutions but apart from liquidity concerns, sticking to physically-backed ETP is the best option.
I personally Blame AM going long MSRT...


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December 16, 2021, 07:07:27 AM
 #4

Thanks for the forum thread.It was a long and interesting text to read.
Governments can turn any idea or project into thrash.It doesn't matter how good the idea/project actually is.
Just get some government clerks to run the project and they will destroy it and steal the money in no time.
The level of corruption and bureaucracy is multiplied by 10,if we are talking about underdeveloped Latin American countries like El Salvador.
The best solution for this "Bitcoin city" was to allow foreign investors to build the city and give them tax benefits.If there's no interest among foreign investors to build such "Bitcoin city" then such project shouldn't be realized,because it is pointless from an economical point of view.

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December 16, 2021, 10:24:02 PM
Last edit: December 16, 2021, 10:51:13 PM by fillippone
 #5

Thanks for the forum thread.It was a long and interesting text to read.
Governments can turn any idea or project into thrash.It doesn't matter how good the idea/project actually is.
Just get some government clerks to run the project and they will destroy it and steal the money in no time.
The level of corruption and bureaucracy is multiplied by 10,if we are talking about underdeveloped Latin American countries like El Salvador.
The best solution for this "Bitcoin city" was to allow foreign investors to build the city and give them tax benefits.If there's no interest among foreign investors to build such "Bitcoin city" then such project shouldn't be realized,because it is pointless from an economical point of view.

I think this point was well addressed in SLP I linked in the OP:

Quote
Samson Mow:

Would you say that most people are cautiously optimistic? Or are most people a little bit pessimistic about it?

Stephan Livera:

I would say in some communities, some people are sort of like, Oh yeah, nah, I don’t trust him because look at the history of politics in South America and Central America where some person comes out and says something and then it changes. And in their mind they could also be thinking, Well, if President Bukele’s term is—I don’t know exactly, but let’s say it’s another two years—what happens with the next? Does that mean we need multiple presidents to be aligned with the vision and the plan? Because what happens if let’s say some new guy comes in in the next term and he doesn’t like Bitcoin City and Bitcoin bonds, and he tries to step away from the program, doesn’t put in as many resources. You could understand that concern also. But I think certainly you see others who are very positive, like fully positive, right? The likes of Max Kaiser and Stacy, right? So they’re fully like, Yep, we’re doing it. We’re moving to El Zonte next year and they’re gonna buy it. They’re gonna do it. So I think you see the full gamut in the Bitcoin community there. I suppose you’ve seen that as well, right?

Samson Mow:

Yeah, I understand like the hesitance to trust in politicians. I’ve seen some blowback from some vocal people in the Bitcoin community saying, You guys are working with governments. But I think it’s a little bit different in this case where you need to factor in the people of the country too. And a government should represent the interests of its people. And I think in this case, it is actually true because they’re trying to lift the nation out of poverty, they’re trying to create a better future for everybody. And to do that, they’re adopting Bitcoin on a number of levels. If you were not looking out for the best interests of the nation and the people, you definitely would not do that. If you wanted to clamp down and rule with an iron fist, you wouldn’t give people Fuck you money. You’re giving them money that you cannot seize. And you’re trying to teach them something new and show them a path to the future. So I would give the benefit of the doubt here and say President Bukele is trying to forge a path forward. And it’s a difficult path to forge. And a lot of that has to do with everything that’s happened in the past, and the difficult situation they’re in right now. So they’re saddled with a lot of debt. And the debt that they’re saddled with really is keeping them effectively like a subservient state of Western nations. That debt that you were saying that they’re paying 13% on—I think the coupon on that is 9% or something, but because it’s trading at a discount, it is effectively like 13-15%. So how do you get out of that hole? You need the IMF to refinance you to give you more financing to service the debt. And that’s just a downward spiral. You’re borrowing more money to service old debts. That’s not really a way to get out of the situation. The only way to get out of the situation is to break the simulation—to ignore the imaginary paper money that they’re lending you to service other imaginary money that you’ve borrowed in the past—and to go with sound, hard money. So it’s a difficult situation: either you can say, We’re going to work with a government, or you can say, Just let the old system exist. And regardless of your opinions, I think to leave it as status quo is worse than helping a government. And yes, maybe he will not be in charge in a few years. Maybe the new person will be anti-Bitcoin—who knows—but that is somewhere in the future, and I think we have to deal with the cards that we have on the table today and try to steer things in the right direction. So, if the country becomes prosperous through Bitcoin adoption, through the Bitcoin bond program, I think it would be difficult for a successor to nullify all of that and just throw it off the table and say, Okay, no more Bitcoin City, no more zero cap gains, and no more property taxes—like, reverse all of those things. That would be very difficult—if it’s successful, right? If things are working and you want to turn it off, I think that’s far harder than if it’s not working and you want turn it off.


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December 17, 2021, 07:19:46 AM
Merited by fillippone (3)
 #6

Hey fillippone, we're on a forum, it's not about writing books here, lol.

I see this as quite positive, and even if from an objective analysis it is supposedly a disaster, I am sure it will sell, just like GBTC or MSTR shares are sold which are objectively worse investment options than investing in Bitcoin directly. Even Bitcoin is sold by Paypal and systems that come to be more of a derivative product than Bitcoin itself that you can withdraw.

What has come to my mind is what would happen in 4 years if Bukele loses the elections. We will have to see how this evolves and I guess it will be crucial that the price of Bitcoin is significantly higher then for him to renew in power.




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December 17, 2021, 07:34:41 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #7

Coindesk released a "CoinDesk Inside" about the bond.
A lot of things were already known and written above, but few details emerge:


Behind the Scenes of El Salvador’s Bitcoin Bond With the Man Who Designed It

Amongst the new things we discovered it is Samson Mow though toward IMF hostility:
Quote
Quote

As for the mounting hostility of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other legacy players, Mow sees them sweating.

“I think it’s definitely a threat. They’re feeling it. But I don’t think it matters in the long run,” he said. “These organizations do harm people, and they do make nation-states into vassal states. There’s a high degree of interference with sovereign nations who are not so sovereign. That’s going to be hard for organizations like the IMF to swallow, but I just don’t think there’s anything they can do about it.”


Regarding your guess:
I am sure it will sell, just like GBTC or MSTR shares are sold which are objectively worse investment options than investing in Bitcoin directly.

In the article we read
Quote

As of our conversation in early December, Mow said there were already $300 million worth of “soft commitments” to the bond, which is still being refined ahead of its expected launch in 2022. “These are just Bitfinex whales, mostly,” said Mow.


So yes, it will sell.

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December 17, 2021, 09:14:07 AM
Merited by DdmrDdmr (4)
 #8

Cutting long story short: this bond is a financial disaster.

Just lol... Cheesy

So if it's a disaster for the average Joe and the only ones who would be interested in these would-be investors who can't touch bitcoin directly, I really wonder what investors would like to go through these so-called bonds issued by a foreign country rather than going to at this point already established alternatives available in the US and other countries.

Quote
As for the mounting hostility of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other legacy players, Mow sees them sweating.

“I think it’s definitely a threat. They’re feeling it. But I don’t think it matters in the long run,” he said. “These organizations do harm people, and they do make nation-states into vassal states. There’s a high degree of interference with sovereign nations who are not so sovereign. That’s going to be hard for organizations like the IMF to swallow, but I just don’t think there’s anything they can do about it.”

Yeah lol, I know this story, the evil IMF...
So first Bukele goes down on all his four, and begs for money US$389 million from the IMF and then he starts crying how bad those poeple are because they might want their money back.

They receive 200 million a year in help via USAID but when the US cut millions in their help against the gang war (which Bukele said was over) he suddenly started crying the US is funding the opposition.

Since neuroticfish is also here, he might give his opinion if this is not like Ceausescu did, first digging his pit by borrowing more money than he could ever payback and then accusing others they are sabotaging his country.

Oh, and one more thing

Quote
As only half of the capital will be used to build this “bitcoin infrastructure”, the other half of the bond sale proceeds will be used to pay a special “bitcoin dividend” to the bondholders, which would significantly raise the final bond yield.

Cross quoting DdmrDdmr here:

-   It will be initially funded through tokenized bitcoin bonds for a facial value of 1.000M $, out of which 500M $ will be invested in bitcoin, and the other 500M $ will go towards infrastructure, energy and mining. Nevertheless, I've read that they estimate needing 300 000 BTCs (17 774 M$) to fully fund the public infrastructure, without there bein and explanation as to how to fill the gap between the initial funding and the x17 needed figure.

There are still many details to be portrayed, and I’m personally perplexed and wondering if this is an act of madness or bravery …

https://www-businessinsider-es.translate.goog/bitcoin-city-primera-ciudad-financiada-criptomoneda-968367?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=nui

I think it's a 25/75 chance of this project to actually take shape, but something like 99% that at least on the "masterminds" behind it will end up in jail after this  Grin

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December 17, 2021, 09:22:11 AM
 #9

Since neuroticfish is also here, he might give his opinion if this is not like Ceausescu did, first digging his pit by borrowing more money than he could ever payback and then accusing others they are sabotaging his country.

Notifications rule! Cheesy
Actually, afaik Ceausescu has paid most of the debt by keeping the country hungry.
The socialists (to say it in an overly nice manner) that took the country over were doing what you said: got (and wasted) a lot of money from IMF and when IMF started imposing rules (for cutting costs) started crying about how evil IMF and the westerners are.

(And they still have a mildly anti-west propaganda, and still receive money, and still waste it.)

You guys still don't know that whatever politicians say it's 100% worthless?!

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December 17, 2021, 09:45:09 AM
Merited by babo (1)
 #10


Cross quoting DdmrDdmr here:

-   It will be initially funded through tokenized bitcoin bonds for a facial value of 1.000M $, out of which 500M $ will be invested in bitcoin, and the other 500M $ will go towards infrastructure, energy and mining. Nevertheless, I've read that they estimate needing 300 000 BTCs (17 774 M$) to fully fund the public infrastructure, without there bein and explanation as to how to fill the gap between the initial funding and the x17 needed figure.

There are still many details to be portrayed, and I’m personally perplexed and wondering if this is an act of madness or bravery …

Thank you for letting me know about that thread.
I think we can take this one to discuss the more technical aspects of the bond, and leave the other part of the discussion on that thread.


First Bitcoin City]
Cross quoting DdmrDdmr here:

-   It will be initially funded through tokenized bitcoin bonds for a facial value of 1.000M $, out of which 500M $ will be invested in bitcoin, and the other 500M $ will go towards infrastructure, energy and mining. Nevertheless, I've read that they estimate needing 300 000 BTCs (17 774 M$) to fully fund the public infrastructure, without there bein and explanation as to how to fill the gap between the initial funding and the x17 needed figure.

There are still many details to be portrayed, and I’m personally perplexed and wondering if this is an act of madness or bravery …

Thank you for letting me know about that thread.
I think we can take this one to discuss the more technical aspects of the bond, and leave the other part of the discussion on that thread.


First Bitcoin City

Adding reference in OP.

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December 17, 2021, 01:20:24 PM
 #11

Seriously man appreciate your efforts for this detailed thread about this information which can enlighten all of us about this El Salvador new Bitcoin city as many members would not be able to collect so much information about it easily but you have made it simple through this huge informative wall of text which are more of facts by the way.I have bookmarked the same and will share it with other also.Keep up the work man.

This was the part I was looking for.
I understand that certain entities prefer to invest into bitcoin related products instead of bitcoin itself because it may be easier from legal, accountancy and maybe also from tech/safety point of view.

Still, for us, individuals who already got to this forum, and can read the few words about buying bitcoin and keeping it safe, buying bitcoin related products instead of actual bitcoin makes no sense.
And yes, there's always the risk that some of such bitcoin related products, like these volcano bonds, are a "financial disaster". And in most cases those details are pretty well hidden.
Exactly if you want to invest in something you should directly do the same instead of buying something related to it.They makes no sense to me as well because suppose you are having $2000 worth of bitcoin with you safely stored  in your hardware wallet the returns would be immense in short period of time if you have patience to hold over all those years but on the other side you buy these volcano bonds which are something familiar to the Gold bonds and they are centrally backup which can make them do the changes anytime like the Gold confiscation of 1933 so why people go this way instead of doing it directly?The road that leads straight is sometimes better than covering extra miles to reach the same destination.

Hey fillippone, we're on a forum, it's not about writing books here, lol.
He is old renowned author in publishing this books on the forum and the he publish his everything you were afraid to ask editions for members of forum and they are well liked Grin



What has come to my mind is what would happen in 4 years if Bukele loses the elections. We will have to see how this evolves and I guess it will be crucial that the price of Bitcoin is significantly higher then for him to renew in power.
I think the next elections in El Salvador are going to be conducted in 2024 and the only in the last few months the supreme court made an official order which makes him eligible running for re-elections and the decision was opposed by US government, right group and opposite parties.Considering his past elections :

Quote
Salvadoran politics have been dominated by the Nationalist Republican Alliance (ARENA) on the right and the Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front (FMLN) on the left. But after his 2017 expulsion from by the FMLN, Nayib Bukele ran in 2019 as an outsider candidate, railing against both parties with an anti-corruption, populist message. He won with 53 percent of the vote, placing him more than 21 points ahead of his next closest rival.

But after the Bitcoin adoption there were many revolts against him as the small merchants and some groups were not happy with his decision at all so we can foresee he losing some support among them but still there are chances he winning the elections and they are regularly investing in Bitcoin and i think they have accumulated 1220 bitcoins at this time but will see what will happen in next elections as the prices are definitely going to be high in 2024.

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December 17, 2021, 05:30:50 PM
Merited by fillippone (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #12

Indeed this thread is quite different from my previous thread, which was aimed at breaking the news of the first bitcoin city, this thread is rich with wider information on the El Salvador Bitcoin city. Am glad to see the details I have been searching for on this thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5372455.msg58492824#msg58492824


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December 17, 2021, 06:29:09 PM
Merited by fillippone (3)
 #13

The level of corruption and bureaucracy is multiplied by 10,if we are talking about underdeveloped Latin American countries like El Salvador.
Yeah, and no doubt that's why their credit rating is so deep in the crapper that their bonds are considered junk.  Still, if nothing else I applaud El Salvador for doing something so bold with bitcoin.  I'll stop the applause immediately if and when any evidence of corruption or broken promises starts to appear--and something tells me that said evidence will pop up eventually. 

The best solution for this "Bitcoin city" was to allow foreign investors to build the city and give them tax benefits.If there's no interest among foreign investors to build such "Bitcoin city" then such project shouldn't be realized,because it is pointless from an economical point of view.
Maybe, but I'm wondering what those foreign investors would turn the city into.  It might be worse than whatever it turns out to be with El Salvador running it, though that's yet to be seen.  And I am very curious to see what this "bitcoin city" looks like when it's fully up and running.  I guess if nothing else it'll be a neat social experiment, though the cynical side of me is betting that it won't work nearly as well as planned.

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December 18, 2021, 03:20:54 AM
Merited by fillippone (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #14

Thank you for letting me know about that thread.
I think we can take this one to discuss the more technical aspects of the bond, and leave the other part of the discussion on that thread.

Of course, and I also think those two will diverge a lot although they are supposed to be correlated. My opinion is clear, that city will not be built with that little amount of money and it will not serve as a cash cow on its own, it's going to lose money for decades.

The bonds, well these are way trickier.

Of course, no matter how they sugarcoated the plan behind it's simple and obvious, you use investors money to grab more bitcoins and at the same time, you pump the price for your own assets (both Salvador and Blockstream and other involved) and then simply wait for 10 years if Bitcoin does an x10 everyone is happy if not, that's all folks. I'm not sure about the investors looking for these, yeah, some still can't get access to physical bitcoins, some don't want physical bitcoins, but these bonds are at this point the most roundabout way to get something that is bitcoin related than everything else, and we're looking at 10 years, much of the legal framework can change in a year, why would you run head-on into this, no idea. But that's the part of getting the money, who knows, maybe they will get it all in one hour, and then, we wait!

Everyone that will put his money into these will look more at the bitcoin price than what's really happening in Salvador, you're not betting on the Salvador economy with it you're betting on Bitcoin, even if Salvador defaults if BTC rises to xxxx you're in the green.




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December 18, 2021, 02:00:11 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #15

I have a strong feeling that this project will fail because the costs will prove to be higher than anticipated, there will be lots of small problems that would together slow things down significantly, and there will also be political factors, both from inside and outside of the country. Not the first "dream city", not the last.

Why not take an existing city and make it a special economic zone, why should it be a brand new city? Just because of the volcano mining hype?

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December 18, 2021, 02:56:08 PM
Merited by fillippone (3)
 #16

Amazing topic fillippone!
You know what currency will be used as soon as you see that Bitfinex exchange and Liquid network is involved in this, saying that USD, USDT and BTC will be used for funding.
Maybe we can expect to see sudden and huge inflow of USDT coming soon for funding, after being freshly printed by Bitfinex printing machine  Cheesy

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December 18, 2021, 09:51:56 PM
 #17

Awesome thread !!!

How do we get involved in this and how we can buy ?

Also how citizenship by investment works?

is there roadmap for completion of the actual city?

Thank you!!!

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December 19, 2021, 11:49:50 AM
Merited by LFC_Bitcoin (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #18

Amazing topic fillippone!
You know what currency will be used as soon as you see that Bitfinex exchange and Liquid network is involved in this, saying that USD, USDT and BTC will be used for funding.
Maybe we can expect to see sudden and huge inflow of USDT coming soon for funding, after being freshly printed by Bitfinex printing machine  Cheesy

My Guess is that the vast majority of bond-buyers will be in BTC.
I think they won't have any problems having a Bid to Cover Ratio (total demand of the bond over the total issued amount) around 2 or 3.

There is just too much support from whales and the overall community.

The true challenge will be the onboarding of the more traditional finance, who will have huge difficulties onboarding Bitfinex, not exactly the most traditional institution friendly exchange.

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January 04, 2022, 08:40:17 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (2)
 #19

An article on the Volcano Bond appeared on Yahoo news today:

Yahoo Finance
Why Bitcoin bulls still think $100K is in the cards despite ugly end to 2021

Avoiding commenting the clickbait title, we have a few interesting lines on the bond, something we know, something we didn't.
Something we knew:

Quote
The 10-year bond which reaches maturity in 2032, carries a coupon of 6.5%. While Mow admitted this novel sovereign security is far more popular with Bitcoin investors than the general investing public, he suggested institutions “starving for yield” will snap up the bonds.

Something we didn't know:

Quote
While the bond isn’t available yet, Mow said Blockstream is working with a number of brokers.

I guess this is exactly the true challenge of this bond.
While having the first issuances of this bond being fully covered by the "bitcoin investors" (whatever this means) will be pretty trivial, the true challenge will be about opening the market toward true "institutional investors", the ones that are relly capable of moving new inflows into the market.




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laredo7mm
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January 04, 2022, 11:13:28 AM
Merited by fillippone (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #20

4. How this Bond compares to traditional investment.
[~snip~]
Cutting long story short: this bond is a financial disaster.

This was the part I was looking for.
I understand that certain entities prefer to invest into bitcoin related products instead of bitcoin itself because it may be easier from legal, accountancy and maybe also from tech/safety point of view.

Still, for us, individuals who already got to this forum, and can read the few words about buying bitcoin and keeping it safe, buying bitcoin related products instead of actual bitcoin makes no sense.
And yes, there's always the risk that some of such bitcoin related products, like these volcano bonds, are a "financial disaster". And in most cases those details are pretty well hidden.

So you are thinking that this will be another bubble like dot com that we have seen earlier in this century. It is true many countries have legal issues with BTC so people want to invest in products related to BTC. But as long as it has a working product behind it and it contains value there should not be a problem. Still, It is not the same as buying BTC and won't serve the purpose of BTC.
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