Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[johhnyUA]

It's funny to see as some russian members turned to be kremling troll puppets.

Veleor is going full mad, tho  

Many prominent American and European military experts and journalists do not share this optimism at all and argue that Ukraine is doomed to defeat and loss of territories in any case.

1. Many military experts thought that Russia will overrun Ukraine in 72 hours and that russian army is real threat to NATO.
What in fact: It turned to be a horde of grim orcs on lightly modernized soviet cans.

2. After few days many of such military experts told us that Russia will be run off recources in 5-10 days.
"About two weeks ago I suggested that Russian forces have approximately three weeks before their combat effectiveness becomes increasingly exhausted. I think that's generally been right, but we're not quite there yet." (link)
What in fact: Russia is still attacking and achieving some small victories.

So i would not listen too much of experts  

Besides, this is typical propaganda move:

Die Welt - June 5, 2022
Edward Luttwak
"The curious and strange thing about Russia is that even if it didn't have nuclear weapons, it would be impossible to achieve a Ukrainian victory in the sense that the Russians would be forced to withdraw completely, maybe even from Crimea".

Edward Luttwak is telling that this is unlikely that Ukraine will free Crimea. And kremling puppet Veleor trying to show it as an example for statement "Ukraine is unlikely to get victory". Trying to use verbaly similar thesis to prove his statement.
Far example: I'm telling "Oh, i can't jump up to the Moon" , Veleor: "Johhny tells us that he can't jump"

Apparently you are talking about propaganda without being sufficiently informed.
Here is the information from the OSCE report about the torture of "pro-Russian" civilians in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions by the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine.

For some reasons (that is clear to me) you forgot to show us similiar OSCE report about tortures in separatist controlled territories. It has much more cases.
In your report we have a quote: "This report includes the
results of interviews with over 200 prisoners released by the Ukrainian side"
And here we have counted by OSCE cases in separatists zone: 2763 persons released from ‘‘DPR’’ and ‘‘LPR’’ captivity (by 22 July 2015)

Even if we exclude all military from my report, it will turn in 1226 civillians, 27 journalists, 36 volunteers, in sum 1289

1289 by 22 July 2015 vs 200 by april 2016 , feel the difference. 

[paxmao]

The report linked is from 2015 BTW.

What report? Your link says "28 April 2022"

The one published by Veleor. It is from 2015 and my point is that he is all right using this to justify the war of aggression but hides the fact that it is currently the RF that is preventing the OSCE to inspect the situation on the terrain - you know... like if they had something to hide? (wink wink)

So it is OK when they publish something about some Ukrainian ignoring human rights, but it does not matter if they are saying that the RF is simply not allowing them to work.

Well, do Russians in this situation have any reason to trust ANY organization coming from West?
I mean, nazi Germany central bank didn't face such harsh sanctions, for example

Did they have any more reason to trust it in 2015?

Germany did suffer a ultra-severe war reparations bill after WWI - many argue that it is a main reason for WWII. Regarding Nazi Germany, the US was quite ambivalent, and there were even Germanophiles in the UK and other countries. But just not to digress...  Nazi Germany was sent to the stone age in the end.

"Sanctions" simply mean a restriction to open trade. If a country is behaving like an enemy, it would be just stupid to keep trading with it as if nothing was happening. For example, knowing that the RF will use proceeds from the sale of oil to keep paying the mobilisation of the army that is attacking your future partner, it would not make sense to keep buying it.  If you are anchoring you multi-billion boat on an European port while attacking an Ukrainian city, you should not be surprised if it is seized.

I do not really see any issue on having sanctions.

[Branko]

I do not really see any issue on having sanctions.

Me neither, in perfect, just world.
If we let USA ravage another country every 2-3 years, without any sanctions,
then I question your moral high ground (by "your" I mean collective West)

[paxmao]

I do not really see any issue on having sanctions.

Me neither, in perfect, just world.
If we let USA ravage another country every 2-3 years, without any sanctions,
then I question your moral high ground (by "your" I mean collective West)

I do not give much about "moral high ground" in international politics. I do think that countries have a better chance to progress and grown under a participative regime - reckoning that is a chicken or egg problem (progress first or democracy first?).

As said, the US does not "ravage" a country, it just decides to cut commercial ties just as you would not buy from your neighbour if he is fucking your woman. Another way to put it: Iran wants to sell oil to the west while developing a nuclear programme that can potentially be used to attack allies or even western countries, the RF wants to sell oil, gas, etc... while attacking a potential western ally and threatening Poland, Finland,...  Why should those countries enjoy the same deference and consideration that other than are friendly, democratic or pacific?

I do not agree with some of the sanctions such as the embargo on Cuba and others which are strictly political and have no purpose nor any effect other than killing Cubans and making the regime stronger though.

[Branko]

I do not really see any issue on having sanctions.

Me neither, in perfect, just world.
If we let USA ravage another country every 2-3 years, without any sanctions,
then I question your moral high ground (by "your" I mean collective West)

I do not give much about "moral high ground" in international politics. I do think that countries have a better chance to progress and grown under a participative regime - reckoning that is a chicken or egg problem (progress first or democracy first?).

As said, the US does not "ravage" a country, it just decides to cut commercial ties just as you would not buy from your neighbour if he is fucking your woman. Another way to put it: Iran wants to sell oil to the west while developing a nuclear programme that can potentially be used to attack allies or even western countries, the RF wants to sell oil, gas, etc... while attacking a potential western ally and threatening Poland, Finland,...  Why should those countries enjoy the same deference and consideration that other than are friendly, democratic or pacific?

I do not agree with some of the sanctions such as the embargo on Cuba and others which are strictly political and have no purpose nor any effect other than killing Cubans and making the regime stronger though.

Are you dumb, or just pretending?
I was talking about wars and coups in  Vietnam, whole South and Middle America, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Korea, Syria, Lybia...

Gladio, Paperclip, Monroe doctrine...

[BADecker]

I do not give much about "moral high ground" in international politics. I do think that countries have a better chance to progress and grown under a participative regime - reckoning that is a chicken or egg problem (progress first or democracy first?).

As said, the US does not "ravage" a country, it just decides to cut commercial ties just as you would not buy from your neighbour if he is fucking your woman. Another way to put it: Iran wants to sell oil to the west while developing a nuclear programme that can potentially be used to attack allies or even western countries, the RF wants to sell oil, gas, etc... while attacking a potential western ally and threatening Poland, Finland,...  Why should those countries enjoy the same deference and consideration that other than are friendly, democratic or pacific?

I do not agree with some of the sanctions such as the embargo on Cuba and others which are strictly political and have no purpose nor any effect other than killing Cubans and making the regime stronger though.

Are you dumb, or just pretending?
I was talking about wars and coups in  Vietnam, whole South and Middle America, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Korea, Syria, Lybia...

Gladio, Paperclip, Monroe doctrine...

The point is that the US Government is not the people. Oh, sure. Some of the people like what the US Government is doing. Others have slipped out of the grip of the evil going on in Gov. But most of the people aren't smart enough to really understand how evil has penetrated the US Government over the years... even though they feel that something is not quite right.

[be.open]

The Supreme Court of the DPR sentenced to death British citizens Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin, as well as Moroccan Saadoun Brahim, who are accused of participating in hostilities as part of the Ukrainian armed formations as mercenaries.

[af_newbie]

The Supreme Court of the DPR sentenced to death British citizens Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin, as well as Moroccan Saadoun Brahim, who are accused of participating in hostilities as part of the Ukrainian armed formations as mercenaries.

What else can you expect from this DPR terrorist organization?

They will become footnotes in history books.

Make sure you record the names of the judges and the people who took part in this organization.

[tvbcof]

The Supreme Court of the DPR sentenced to death British citizens Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin, as well as Moroccan Saadoun Brahim, who are accused of participating in hostilities as part of the Ukrainian armed formations as mercenaries.

Putin might have enough sway in Donetsk to convince them to commute the sentences to life.

Maybe if Zenensky and Bojo went to Putin, hat-in-hand, and asked Mr. Putin nicely he would see what he could do.  If Zenensky and Bojo don't care enough about their own nationals (and people who fought on their behalf in coke-head's case) to even try that simple thing then there will be that much more blood on their hands.

Seriously for a minute, I'm curious if there are strong indications that the trial was either fair or unfair on the part of the DPR.  A non-partisan analysis of what is know of the proceedings would be of interest if anyone (serious) runs across such a thing.

[be.open]

The Supreme Court of the DPR sentenced to death British citizens Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin, as well as Moroccan Saadoun Brahim, who are accused of participating in hostilities as part of the Ukrainian armed formations as mercenaries.

Putin might have enough sway in Donetsk to convince them to commute the sentences to life.

Maybe if Zenensky and Bojo went to Putin, hat-in-hand, and asked Mr. Putin nicely he would see what he could do.  If Zenensky and Bojo don't care enough about their own nationals (and people who fought on their behalf in coke-head's case) to even try that simple thing then there will be that much more blood on their hands.

Seriously for a minute, I'm curious if there are strong indications that the trial was either fair or unfair on the part of the DPR.  A non-partisan analysis of what is know of the proceedings would be of interest if anyone (serious) runs across such a thing.

The verdict was passed, but has not entered into force and can be appealed within a month. As far as I know, the verdict was passed on the basis of the confessions of the accused and the testimony of the Azov militants who surrendered. For foreign mercenaries, a Ukrainian safari can be deadly. As I understand it, the line of defense was that these mercenaries served in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and should be considered combatants, but the line of defense did not work and they were tried as civilians for a criminal offense.

[TwitchySeal]

So they've been living in Ukraine for years, enlisted with Ukrainian military, but because they're British citizens they are sentenced to death instead being treated as prisoners of war like the rest?

[be.open]

So they've been living in Ukraine for years, enlisted with Ukrainian military, but because they're British citizens they are sentenced to death instead being treated as prisoners of war like the rest?

Yep. I heard that Sean Pinner was declared a terrorist in the UK for participating in an armed conflict in Syria. I also heard that the captured Azov militants testified against him that he was a sniper. He himself, when surrendering, seems to have declared that he was a cook and instructor. In any case, this is a show trial to show the foreign mercenaries fighting in Ukraine that they will be treated as civilians and tried for war crimes with the strictest severity if they are surrendered.

[paxmao]

I do not really see any issue on having sanctions.

Me neither, in perfect, just world.
If we let USA ravage another country every 2-3 years, without any sanctions,
then I question your moral high ground (by "your" I mean collective West)

I do not give much about "moral high ground" in international politics. I do think that countries have a better chance to progress and grown under a participative regime - reckoning that is a chicken or egg problem (progress first or democracy first?).

As said, the US does not "ravage" a country, it just decides to cut commercial ties just as you would not buy from your neighbour if he is fucking your woman. Another way to put it: Iran wants to sell oil to the west while developing a nuclear programme that can potentially be used to attack allies or even western countries, the RF wants to sell oil, gas, etc... while attacking a potential western ally and threatening Poland, Finland,...  Why should those countries enjoy the same deference and consideration that other than are friendly, democratic or pacific?

I do not agree with some of the sanctions such as the embargo on Cuba and others which are strictly political and have no purpose nor any effect other than killing Cubans and making the regime stronger though.

Are you dumb, or just pretending?
I was talking about wars and coups in  Vietnam, whole South and Middle America, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Korea, Syria, Lybia...

Gladio, Paperclip, Monroe doctrine...

If you want to bring in side topics you will need to be more specific instead of considering that others need to read you mind (I have no intention of going into your mind, it must be full of old USSR magazines and pamphlets from the Stalin era).

As said, I do not consider the US governments had any moral high-ground nor has any interest in promoting the welfare of people (sometimes not even in the US itself). They were defending their social, economic and political system in the face of the USSR many times using very questionable means.

On the topic of this thread, I do think there are moral considerations on not letting Ukraine be ruled by a despot, but mostly, as said before a few times, there is a practical benefit to the people of Ukraine in choosing the right path and partners for their future.

So they've been living in Ukraine for years, enlisted with Ukrainian military, but because they're British citizens they are sentenced to death instead being treated as prisoners of war like the rest?

Yep. I heard that Sean Pinner was declared a terrorist in the UK for participating in an armed conflict in Syria. I also heard that the captured Azov militants testified against him that he was a sniper. He himself, when surrendering, seems to have declared that he was a cook and instructor. In any case, this is a show trial to show the foreign mercenaries fighting in Ukraine that they will be treated as civilians and tried for war crimes with the strictest severity if they are surrendered.

Do not complaint after for the payback. Killing a POW by deciding that he is a "terrorist" calls for equal terms for the captured RF orcs. Not that you care about them, I know, I am just saying this for those who may be considering joining the RF army.

Just so that I am clear: Anyone joining the RF army must know that their government is executing POWs and that is likely to end badly for any RF soldier captured.

[TwitchySeal]

So they've been living in Ukraine for years, enlisted with Ukrainian military, but because they're British citizens they are sentenced to death instead being treated as prisoners of war like the rest?

Yep. I heard that Sean Pinner was declared a terrorist in the UK for participating in an armed conflict in Syria. I also heard that the captured Azov militants testified against him that he was a sniper. He himself, when surrendering, seems to have declared that he was a cook and instructor. In any case, this is a show trial to show the foreign mercenaries fighting in Ukraine that they will be treated as civilians and tried for war crimes with the strictest severity if they are surrendered.

Pretty hypocritical considering the Nazi Wagner group, which isn't part of the official Russian military, has been deployed to fight in Ukraine.

[BADecker]

Do not complaint after for the payback. Killing a POW by deciding that he is a "terrorist" calls for equal terms for the captured RF orcs. Not that you care about them, I know, I am just saying this for those who may be considering joining the RF army.

Just so that I am clear: Anyone joining the RF army must know that their government is executing POWs and that is likely to end badly for any RF soldier captured.

So now you think it is execution for POWs when Ukraine commanders are ordered to shoot any of their own soldiers that surrender, or even look like it.

[af_newbie]

So they've been living in Ukraine for years, enlisted with Ukrainian military, but because they're British citizens they are sentenced to death instead being treated as prisoners of war like the rest?

Yep. I heard that Sean Pinner was declared a terrorist in the UK for participating in an armed conflict in Syria. I also heard that the captured Azov militants testified against him that he was a sniper. He himself, when surrendering, seems to have declared that he was a cook and instructor. In any case, this is a show trial to show the foreign mercenaries fighting in Ukraine that they will be treated as civilians and tried for war crimes with the strictest severity if they are surrendered.

and I heard that Putin thinks he is Peter the Great.

BTW, these POWs were members of the Ukrainian Army. You draw your own conclusions.

[be.open]

Do not complaint after for the payback. Killing a POW by deciding that he is a "terrorist" calls for equal terms for the captured RF orcs. Not that you care about them, I know, I am just saying this for those who may be considering joining the RF army.

Exactly, this is payback - for the murders and torture of Russian prisoners of war who were captured by Ukrainians.

Just so that I am clear: Anyone joining the RF army must know that their government is executing POWs and that is likely to end badly for any RF soldier captured.

Russian soldiers have no illusions, they know what awaits them in Ukrainian captivity.

Pretty hypocritical considering the Nazi Wagner group, which isn't part of the official Russian military, has been deployed to fight in Ukraine.

The mercenaries of the Wagner Group also have no illusions. They know what awaits them in Ukrainian captivity.

BTW, these POWs were members of the Ukrainian Army. You draw your own conclusions.

Don't worry so much. They have been covered enough in the media space to count on a pardon from the President of the Donetsk People's Republic or on an exchange for a Russian soldier who was sentenced in Kyiv to life imprisonment for the murder of a civilian. I also want to note that the mercenaries were tried in the DPR, not in Russia.

[LTU_btc]

BTW, these POWs were members of the Ukrainian Army. You draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, they were regular membrers of Ukrainian army and they're Ukrainian citizens.

Russian soldiers have no illusions, they know what awaits them in Ukrainian captivity.

What exactly? I just remind that there is no death sentence in Ukraine, unlike in so called DPR. So, worst what can happen is life imprisonmet or more likely exchsnge with Ukrainian POW's. Ukraine, is following Geneva convention, unlike so called DPR or Russia.

[be.open]

BTW, these POWs were members of the Ukrainian Army. You draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, they were regular membrers of Ukrainian army and they're Ukrainian citizens.

This is not true or not entirely true. Two citizens of Great Britain and one citizen of Morocco were convicted. As far as I know, the Englishman Sean Pinner is married to a Ukrainian, but this does not automatically make him a Ukrainian.

Russian soldiers have no illusions, they know what awaits them in Ukrainian captivity.

What exactly? I just remind that there is no death sentence in Ukraine, unlike in so called DPR. So, worst what can happen is life imprisonmet or more likely exchsnge with Ukrainian POW's. Ukraine, is following Geneva convention, unlike so called DPR or Russia.

At the end of March, an international scandal erupted when many mainstream media published shocking videos of the torture and execution of Russian prisoners of war. A little later, in early April, Kyiv refused to comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to Russian prisoners of war. You have a very short and selective memory if you don't remember it.

[paxmao]

Do not complaint after for the payback. Killing a POW by deciding that he is a "terrorist" calls for equal terms for the captured RF orcs. Not that you care about them, I know, I am just saying this for those who may be considering joining the RF army.

Exactly, this is payback - for the murders and torture of Russian prisoners of war who were captured by Ukrainians.
...

This is pretty much what I expected to read from you. Adolf Putin's government  killing POW = justice. If Ukraine defence army ever thinks of doing the same = Terrorism / crimes. This type of bullshit fits well on the RF controlled media, but people here can tell a troll.

The facts do not care about your view anyway. Soldiers joining the RF invasion forces are now a bit more exposed to retaliation - even if not government backed or even in isolated incidents. Them, their friends and relatives have to understand that Adolf Putin has put them at risk just to have his day of propaganda on RF controlled media. The whole war is anyway about it.

...
At the end of March, an international scandal erupted when many mainstream media published shocking videos of the torture and execution of Russian prisoners of war. A little later, in early April, Kyiv refused to comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to Russian prisoners of war. You have a very short and selective memory if you don't remember it.

The Geneva convention you say... so Ukraine has to comply with it but...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN

Russia's Putin revokes Geneva convention protocol on war crimes victims

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-22/explainer-how-could-ru

The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, said this month he had opened an investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a member of the ICC and Moscow does not recognize the tribunal.

This is very simple: you can expect the same chivalry you offer.