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Author Topic: There's a set amount of wealth that can exist and the majority of it is already  (Read 1649 times)
Bit_Happy
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March 27, 2014, 07:27:05 PM
 #21

There is no set amount of wealth that can exist. Wealth is created by people making things and providing services....


There is set amount of land, rare gems, etc.
There is an unlimited amount of ideas, services, and "new things", some of which have real value.

There exists no axiom presented in nature that defines value. Value is a human idea, and can be defined by each individual differently. Therefore, you are all wrong but right Smiley

Fine,
If you personally define wealth in terms of rare items, then there is a limited supply of wealth.
If you think "Happiness makes you wealthy", go out and have a great day.   Grin

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March 27, 2014, 08:30:46 PM
 #22

"There's a set amount of wealth that can exist and the majority of it is already concentrated in the hands of a few. If adoption increases, the problem only gets worse." (reddit commenter on bitcoin)

Can someone refute this? If not, I don't want to get into BTC. I like the tech behind BTC transactions. But with 60% of BTC wealth held by maybe 1-5 million people, the above quote seems spot on, doesn't it? With 12 million coins already in wallets, there's less than 0.001 coins left for everyone else.

Why is that a problem? I own only a very tiny fraction of the gold in the world, but that doesn't make my gold less valuable to me.

You seem to be saying that everyone in the world should have the same amount of BTC, otherwise there is a problem. That doesn't make sense to me. Do you also feel the same way about the euro? Do you feel sorry for all those Americans that don't own any euros? Do you feel that Japan should distribute Yen equally to every person in the world?

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Bit_Happy
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March 29, 2014, 01:07:12 AM
 #23

1, 2 & 3 years ago I never had any problem with the idea of super-rich early BTC whales.
After this years scandals and the way the Bitcoin Foundation members (allegedly) made huge profits, and had access to withdrawals from Gox when others were losing a fortune, well...
Let's say my opinion has begun to change.

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April 07, 2014, 07:14:05 AM
 #24

The point of wealth is to buy goods and services which improve your quality of life.  A big pile of cash doesn't have much direct value (can't eat it, can't drink it, doesn't make good insulation, wouldn't keep you warm for long, not really entertaining to just watch it, it can't keep you alive if you get sick, injured, or poisoned).

The quote in the OP is only true is either
a) The Bitcoin rich never convert that digital wealth into goods and services.  They die sick, tired, poor, and probably alone.  Kinda defeats the purpose of acquiring the coins to begin with right?
or
b) They are so amazing at managing their wealth that they continually acquire more coins than they spend.  Of course if that was true they likely are already incredibly wealthy in conventional terms.   Given the number of people who lose funds to scammers, hackers, insanely bad business decisions, gambling, etc I would say the average Bitcoiner is no "financial genius".

Between a & b the coins will spread out one way or another.  Also the idea that wealth is finite and currency is all the wealth is flawed.  Global wealth in on the order of $100T however global money supply is only ~$50B.  Money only makes up 0.1% of all the wealth on the planet.  Bitcoin isn't going to be any different in that respect.

If you own a $200K house (mortgage paid) and I own $200K in BTC then everything else being the same we are equally wealthy.  I could trade my $200K in BTC for a house and you could sell (or mortgage) your house to buy $200K in BTC.  While $200K in BTC might be a sizeable portion of the Bitcoin money supply, all money supplies are a rounding error on total wealth.


Global money supply is much more than $50b. M1 in USD is at least 2.5 trillion.

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April 07, 2014, 12:16:32 PM
 #25

A lot of old wallets wasn't used for very long time. Passwords could be lost, forgotten or owners could just died without telling them to any one.

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April 07, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
 #26

Thanks for the correction (strange nobody else noticed it).  Must have been sleepy when I wrote that.  Global M1 is ~$5T and it was what I was thinking of.  Not sure where $50B came from.  Updated.
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April 09, 2014, 11:46:57 AM
 #27

"There's a set amount of wealth that can exist and the majority of it is already concentrated in the hands of a few. If adoption increases, the problem only gets worse." (reddit commenter on bitcoin)

Can someone refute this? If not, I don't want to get into BTC. I like the tech behind BTC transactions. But with 60% of BTC wealth held by maybe 1-5 million people, the above quote seems spot on, doesn't it? With 12 million coins already in wallets, there's less than 0.001 coins left for everyone else.

I agree with the other commenter; I also don't accept the question as it is presented but I'll still try to give you my thoughts on it. Specifically, I would like you to elaborate on the numbers you've provided and how you got them. I think you probably just copied them, which means you don't know if they are correct or not.

"60% of BTC wealth" was another way of saying 12.5 million out of 21 million coins.

"held by maybe 1-5 million people" I admit this is fuzzy. It's a generous estimate of the number of people I think have adopted bitcoin based on estimates I've read about.

"there's less than 0.001 coins left for everyone else" I rounded world population to 7 billion. Subtracted a generous estimate of how many are bitcoiners there currently are. 1-5 million. But I multiplied 5 million by 10 to make it an obscenely generous estimate so no one could argue that there's more bitcoiners than I accounted for in my numbers. So 6,850,000,000 have no bitcoins.
12,500,000 coins have been mined out of 21,000,000. 21-12.5 = 8.5. 8,500,000/6,850,000,000 = 0.001223 rounded it to the nearest thousandth = 0.001.


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April 09, 2014, 12:18:19 PM
 #28

i think that supply will steadily get more and more spread out. and also with any money there are the elites with a majority of it and there are millions with a small amount. its normal

I understand it's normal. I asked the original question because I believe I have a choice to put my investments and commerce into the USD or BTC. I often hear that bitcoin is better because it's decentralized. So I'm not at the mercy of governments and banks. But I think if I put my faith (investments and commerce) into BTC, I'll be at the mercy of bitcoin "elite". An example of this was posted by Bit_Happy:

1, 2 & 3 years ago I never had any problem with the idea of super-rich early BTC whales.
After this years scandals and the way the Bitcoin Foundation members (allegedly) made huge profits, and had access to withdrawals from Gox when others were losing a fortune, well...
Let's say my opinion has begun to change.

So maybe the question in the OP should be "Will there be a BTC elite?" So far, there have been many in this thread (including yourself, durrrr) who have said (in different ways) that yes there will be. ↓↓↓


The majority of all the wealth in the world is in the hands of a few, bitcoin is no different.  It seems counter intuitive to think that this problem worsens as adoption increases though.

This is where bitcoin failed terribly, hoarders holding large stash and only rich miners or should i say bitcoin bagholders able to mine the rest of them with current difficulty levels. I think alts with no premine are much more fair


Also, if you make more than $32,000 per year I hope you do what you can to distribute your wealth to other nations as one of the 1% richest people in the world.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

What currency/financial system has less % owned by less people?

The answer to that is none. Look at the fiat in your wallet. that currency is already majority owned by the top %.

The difference in crypto is that the people can move purchasing power to other coins almost instantly and that counts as a "electronic vote" to how we want to manage our purchasing power.



The "unfair' nature of early BTC mining (it was 'fair' but hardly anyone was doing it or knew about it) is a HUGE problem.
Some Alt coins will survive partly because they are more fair.  (......lol?)


I don't think you can ever have a situation in life where there arent a small % of people who own a majority of the money in circulation. This is true for all currencies that I know of.

I don't know why this would deter you from using or owning bitcoins though.  If you are treating bitcoin as an investment and you think its value will go up then you can still buy as many bitcoins right now as you want and profit from that.   Or if you are just in a situation where using bitcoin would reduce your fees (like a international transfer for example)  it doesn't really matter how many bitcoins others own, all that matters as that youre using them in a way to save money.

So if these posters are right, my new question is: "Why should I trade one oligarchy (banks/governments) for another (BTC Elite)?"

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April 09, 2014, 12:32:37 PM
 #29

Where do you get that 60% of coins are held by 1 - 5 people?  I don't know the exact thread, but I have seen posts that show the distribution of coins across wallets, and I think the last one I saw was that 47 wallets had more than 10,000 coins.  That doesn't account for people who may hold more than one wallet, but the claim that 1 - 5 people hold 60% of all mined bitcoins isn't accurate.

I think you misread... 1,000,000-5,000,000 people, not 1-5 people. Smiley
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April 09, 2014, 01:00:33 PM
 #30

"There's a set amount of wealth that can exist and the majority of it is already concentrated in the hands of a few. If adoption increases, the problem only gets worse." (reddit commenter on bitcoin)

Can someone refute this? If not, I don't want to get into BTC. I like the tech behind BTC transactions. But with 60% of BTC wealth held by maybe 1-5 million people, the above quote seems spot on, doesn't it? With 12 million coins already in wallets, there's less than 0.001 coins left for everyone else.

1-5 thousand people own 60% of the wealth of the world............  DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM?
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April 09, 2014, 01:04:55 PM
 #31

"There's a set amount of wealth that can exist and the majority of it is already concentrated in the hands of a few. If adoption increases, the problem only gets worse." (reddit commenter on bitcoin)

Can someone refute this? If not, I don't want to get into BTC. I like the tech behind BTC transactions. But with 60% of BTC wealth held by maybe 1-5 million people, the above quote seems spot on, doesn't it? With 12 million coins already in wallets, there's less than 0.001 coins left for everyone else.

1-5 thousand people own 60% of the wealth of the world............  DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM?

What are you trying to say?
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