Bitcoin is doomed. Thanks IRS!!! You Ass hats!

[Robert Paulson]

As an aside, I feel that the U.S. has basically saved Bitcoin with this ruling.  I've long relied on the world's governments to 'save' Bitcoin by making it illegal, but this is even better.  Bitcoin would change to something quite different if it had to support the load of a large exchange economy.  If it remains a vehicle for speculation (which happens off-chain) and moving relatively large blocks of value around, it could remain similar to it's original implementation in terms of being peer-2-peer.

I had a strong feeling this is exactly what you would say (I've just been waiting for you to say it), and I tend to agree with you. I keep saying that Bitcoin isn't well suited for daily purchases, but fantastic for other things (primarily an asset/store of value that gives me total control).

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

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[tvbcof]

I love how people shit themselves when some dumb govt agency threatens them.

I love how internet tough guys who's net worth amounts to a beater Honda Civic spout off about how they plan to stick it to the man...and somehow feel that everyone else should do so as well if they were not 'cowardly' or 'stupid'.

ok, so lets all bow down like submissive pussies.
Then govt can squander everyones hard earned money on pointless shit and fuck the planet up even more.

A rather poor way to 'fight the man' would be to give him an opportunity to throw me in jail and confiscate all my property.  If anything that would make the problem with 'waste and abuse' (which IS a genuine problem BTW) even worse.  There are more effective ways, but they involve a chain of planning which consists of more than one link.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Dark wallet anyone?

Explain to me how that helps you when you engage in a transaction that is a taxable event with an entity which reports those transactions.

Well most entities don't report transactions at the transaction level to the IRS.  If that were the case then nobody would ever cheat on their taxes when it comes to cash transactions.   It would also mean that 99.999999999999999999999% (yes I know that is too many nines) of people wouldn't pretend they have no use tax due in states which "require" it.

Generally speaking only when an entity pays YOU do they report that to the IRS (most commonly in the form of W-2, or 1099).  There are a few examples but they tend to be things which act as deductions for the reportee (student loan interest, property taxes paid, etc).  For example if you buy a TV at best buy, there is nothing best buy reports to the IRS.

The reality is almost nobody is 100% compliant with the tax code either through wilful non-compliance (use tax is pretty common), errors due to the complexity, or ommissions the accuracy rate is essentially 0%.  That being said I am not advocating people assume they can always cheat and not get caught but lets use some common sense.  If you buy for a $20 domain name on namecheap with bitcoins and fail to record that as a capital gain there isn't much chance you are going to get "caught" (caught implies IRS would even be looking for that and they won't).  By the letter of the tax law you should report it but if you don't it is very likely nothing will happen and if somehow you did get caught you could always argue good faith effort and simply pay the taxes due.  Now on the other hand if you buy a bunch of Bitcoins at $0.01 each and now they are worth $40M and you plan to buy a yacht to "avoid taxes" well you probably should consult a CPA and there is a very high chance you will get caught and when you do you will be hit with fines and penalties.

I think the property classification is dubious, currency isn't property for tax purposes, neither are bearer instruments, stored value (gift cards), or even casino chips. On the other hand the idea that the IRS is going to demand records on all transactions (even ones where there is no legal requirement to keep records) in order to catch all the $1.38 in missing taxes on capital gains from spending bitcoins for a video game is kinda silly.

[tvbcof]

As an aside, I feel that the U.S. has basically saved Bitcoin with this ruling.  I've long relied on the world's governments to 'save' Bitcoin by making it illegal, but this is even better.  Bitcoin would change to something quite different if it had to support the load of a large exchange economy.  If it remains a vehicle for speculation (which happens off-chain) and moving relatively large blocks of value around, it could remain similar to it's original implementation in terms of being peer-2-peer.

I had a strong feeling this is exactly what you would say (I've just been waiting for you to say it), and I tend to agree with you. I keep saying that Bitcoin isn't well suited for daily purchases, but fantastic for other things (primarily an asset/store of value that gives me total control).

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

Well, you are simply flat out wrong in at the very least one case that I am intimately familiar with (namely my own.)

Using a globally distributed and persistent blockchain entry to by a pack of Skittles is about the most brain-dead use of resources that I've ever heard of.  This is the proverbial use of a sledgehammer to kill a fly.  And again, it would change the nature of the solution dramatically were it to become the norm (much to the delight of the Googles of the landscape.)

[amspir]

Well most entities don't report transactions at the transaction level to the IRS.  If that were the case then nobody would ever cheat on their taxes when it comes to cash transactions.   It would also mean that 99.999999999999999999999% (yes I know that is too many nines) of people wouldn't pretend they have no use tax due in states which "require" it.

For someone who is dubious about not completely complying with the law, it's not going to be that big of a deal to run your wallet through a program that issues a statement of your short term and long term capital gains, which you can put along with the reports from your fiat interest-bearing accounts.

[hello_good_sir]

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

No way.  I can't use gold for daily purchases.  That doesn't stop it from being worth a rather huge amount per ounce.  Bitcoin, even if accepted by no merchants, can achieve a price in the tens of thousands of dollars per coin.

[s_s]

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

Using a globally distributed and persistent blockchain entry to by a pack of Skittles is about the most brain-dead use of resources that I've ever heard of.  This is the proverbial use of a sledgehammer to kill a fly. 

I agree with that to a point...however, it is worth using it to make a micropayment of say 2 cents to instantly read some content on the internet (something not currently possible with existing payment systems because of unreasonable high minimum fees).

Which means tracking capital gains or losses "could" be a stumbling point for this "best use" of the technology. But I still believe that a bit of code can solve this problem to provide the necessary tracking and documentation.

[GTO911]

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

No way.  I can't use gold for daily purchases.  That doesn't stop it from being worth a rather huge amount per ounce.  Bitcoin, even if accepted by no merchants, can achieve a price in the tens of thousands of dollars per coin.

Gold is also used for jwellery and ornaments, very good conductor, heat insulator

[amspir]

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

No way.  I can't use gold for daily purchases.  That doesn't stop it from being worth a rather huge amount per ounce.  Bitcoin, even if accepted by no merchants, can achieve a price in the tens of thousands of dollars per coin.

That's kind of silly, since there would be no value in using bitcoin.  It makes it a ponzi scheme, where the smart sell to the stupid and cash out before it collapses.  Speculators provide a service to bitcoin, by giving it value.  When it has value, it can be used as a means to trade for goods and services.

[2tights]

the only reason bitcoin is a store of value is because people anticipate it will be useable for daily purchases.

No way.  I can't use gold for daily purchases.  That doesn't stop it from being worth a rather huge amount per ounce.  Bitcoin, even if accepted by no merchants, can achieve a price in the tens of thousands of dollars per coin.

That's kind of silly, since there would be no value in using bitcoin.  It makes it a ponzi scheme, where the smart sell to the stupid and cash out before it collapses.  Speculators provide a service to bitcoin, by giving it value.  When it has value, it can be used as a means to trade for goods and services.

Gold has industrial value, so its value will remain until viable alternatives compete with those industrial applications.  Fiat and part of BTC value is created by the perception of people like you and me. A piece of paper has no intrinsic value or utility, however BTC goes beyond this and actually does have a very valuable function which is the blockchain.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/03/26/warren-buffett-says-bitcoin-is-a-mirage-why-marc-andreessen-thinks-hes-wrong/

“A value of a BTC is not arbitrary, in fact it’s the opposite of arbitrary,” he says. “It equals the value of a single slot in a finite sized public cryptographic ledger through which value can move. The total Bitcoin ledger has value corresponding to the volume and velocity of transactions that will run through it in the future; by extension, each slot in the ledger has fractional value determined by the total number of slots (which, in Bitcoin’s case, are limited to 11 million today and 21 million ever).”


“So saying what Warren is saying is like saying ‘a car is great technology but it’ll never actually get anyone from point A to point B,” he continued. “Bitcoin is great technology BECAUSE it lets people get value from point A to point B through the public ledger; that functional use creates the value of the ledger, and a single BTC has a corresponding fractional value of the ledger.”

[Peter R]

Tvbcof and Holliday:  I agree that bitcoin presently has better use cases than day-to-day spending like you both point out.  If the block limit size is increased and blocks are communicated by tx-hash to reduce the orphan cost, do you believe bitcoin will remain less useful for day-to-day purchases?

On the IRS guidance: Am I wrong in understanding the IRS guidance as their interpretation of existing laws?  No laws were actually changed, correct?  To me it seems the guidance was fair: presently bitcoin is more like property than like currency; if you disagree I believe the courts would have the final say.  

But the bigger point I want to make is that as bitcoin grows, it may naturally evolve to become more like currency than like property, and at this point would not the IRS guidance less accurately reflect the existing law (no change in law required, just a change in the interpretation of what a bitcoin is to more accurately reflect…ahem…what it is at that point in time)?  

The same theme applies to the guidance on mining. From my discussions with various community members, I think the general feeling is that hashers are paid for the services they provide to a mining pool whereas miners create bitcoins based on their own initiatives and the acceptance of their efforts by their peers.  I think if the IRS had a deeper understanding of bitcoin, they would have used the word "hashers" rather than "miners" in their guidance.  Based on existing laws, I believe miners (but not hashers) are free to recognize gains on any coins they create when a gain is realized, and a court challenge would rule in their favour.  

This is just my opinion and should not be construed as legal advice.  IANAL.

[toknormal]

I hate to admit it, but this story makes a lot of sense.

I can't believe you think that. That article is utter nonsense made up by an idle-minded journalist looking to create a bit of bluster for the sake of it.

Monetary media don't draw their properties - "fungibility" - or otherwise from the whims of tax regulators. You might as well say that dollars are not fungible in the Euro economy because they attract capital gains tax.

The article is basically a scam. Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility.

Specifically this part:

Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. For example, since one ounce of gold is equivalent to any other ounce of gold, gold is fungible.

Do you really think that the fact that one day gold is valued at $1200 and another day at $1500 destroys the fungibility of gold ? Thats what this idiot would have you believe.

[Erdogan]

The IRS has issued its ruling. Now let it try to enforce it.

Seriously, as the cryptocurrency ecosystem continues to grow, there is no longer going to be a need to cash out BTC for fiat currency, in which case how are they ever going to know what kind of profits or holdings in bitcoin you have? Unless they go all police-state on us and make every bitcoin service under the sun obtain identity data on every account they have (such as when you buy a Gyft card), this is not going to do much to harm bitcoin.

Even if they did try to put such burdens on US businesses, they could just move overseas, and the overseas ones would fill the void. The internet knows no boundaries, so it's not like we'll care if Gyft shifts to the Barbados, for example, instead of wherever they are registered now. The IRS ruling will become a 99% ignored laughingstock because they won't be able to enforce it.

This is accurate. The anonymous/untraceable nature of any cryptocurrency makes it easy to hide. But not everyone wants to break the law and risk going to jail. Anyone doing business in the #s that will make this taxable would mean that you are doing 100s of thousands of $USD in bitcoin. Which means you probably have more to lose (such as your money). Tax isn't THAT bad people.

If you want to break the law to make money there are also other options.

I agree with the first, both posters actually. But do not forget that the basis of the domination system is the fact that the subjects are those who give the masters power and resources, that is from where they get their dominance. Since the tracking of all transactions for tax purposes is so weird, costly, impractical and intrusive, people should and probably will just say no. Certainly, that's what I will do. Report my bitcoin holdings every year? No. Report all transactions? No. Report the net fiat value of coins sold for fiat? Possibly, but not buy in value, where I got them from, how much I have left. No. Not enough people will say yes to this, so the law will go to sleep. The masters have no say in this. They think they have, but they have no say.

[leopard2]

It should be good for the price of Bitcoin because it encourages people to hold on to their coins.

Large BTC holders aka whales in the USA will think twice about selling large amounts of their coins. Spending them slowly over time is much smarter.

There is also the issue of being a money transmitter that goes away, which is also good.

Lets see how long it takes for this to sink in.

[Peter R]

I agree with the first, both posters actually. But do not forget that the basis of the domination system is the fact that the subjects are those who give the masters power and resources, that is from where they get their dominance. Since the tracking of all transactions for tax purposes is so weird, costly, impractical and intrusive, people should and probably will just say no. Certainly, that's what I will do. Report my bitcoin holdings every year? No. Report all transactions? No. Report the net fiat value of coins sold for fiat? Possibly, but not buy in value, where I got them from, how much I have left. No. Not enough people will say yes to this, so the law will go to sleep. The masters have no say in this. They think they have, but they have no say.

Thanks for the thoughtful post Erdogan.  Indeed, the power always rests with the people.  

I disagree with one point: you said "they think they have a say in this," but I believe the IRS simply issued guidance reflecting their interpretation of the current laws.  

Who are "they" anyways?  And how are they different than us?

[2tights]

I agree with the first, both posters actually. But do not forget that the basis of the domination system is the fact that the subjects are those who give the masters power and resources, that is from where they get their dominance. Since the tracking of all transactions for tax purposes is so weird, costly, impractical and intrusive, people should and probably will just say no. Certainly, that's what I will do. Report my bitcoin holdings every year? No. Report all transactions? No. Report the net fiat value of coins sold for fiat? Possibly, but not buy in value, where I got them from, how much I have left. No. Not enough people will say yes to this, so the law will go to sleep. The masters have no say in this. They think they have, but they have no say.

Thanks for the thoughtful post Erdogan.  Indeed, the power always rests with the people.  

I disagree with one point: you said "they think they have a say in this," but I believe the IRS simply issued guidance reflecting their interpretation of the current laws.  

Who are "they" anyways?  And how are they different than us?

I think by "they" he's referring the elite political class which continues to retain power in this country despite consistent corruption year and year after motherfucking year through political means, corruption, bribery, etc. At least, thats what I mean when I say "they".

How may groups get to give themselves a raise every year, laughing all the way to the bank as they threaten to shut the government down (again). The federal government has gotten WAY too large. And well know government is the most inefficient way to get things done.

So, why on EARTH do the same people who are running this country into the ground with miles of new legislation which expands the size of government, their reach and power, every year still run the country?

[crypto2k]

It's not illegal. That's good news.

Remember, the IRS only taxes Americans. There are 248 nations.

But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

no the usa is not the richest country .. unle4ss u consider trillions in debt as rich .. or maybe u consider a dollar that is backed by debt is really money ?? or maybe you think that printing 80 billion a month for over a year makes the usa the richest country in the world ??

the only real money in this world is gold and silver. who has the gold and silver has the money. the dollar is now on it's deathbed. the fed started to taper not because our economy is better, but instead because the fed has 4 trillion of junk they bought from the big banks on their books with the free money they printed. the fed is now insolvent and cannot continue to print free money and buy another 4 trillion in junk. if they do keep printing then the usa citizens will be left holding a valueless currency.

the usa will need a replacement currency because the days of the dollar reserve currency is coming to an end. maybe bitcoin is in the works instead of a gold backed currency because maybe the usa does not have any gold left to back a currency ?? we don't know the answer to this question yet. to restore confidence in money a gold back currency will be required.. unless they can come up with something else. russia and china both banned bitcoin because they have been buying gold in massive quantities along with all the other SCO countries. they are preparing for a gold backed reserve currency .

regarding this IRS ruling one must wonder why they announced it three weeks before april 15th tax deadline the reason is to limit the time for miners to apply and obtain a business license. you have until april 15th to obtain a business license to be able to writeoff your mining hardware, electric, office space, internet, etc, that you use to mine. therefore maximizing the IRS's money grab for at least another year. if you are going to mine bitcoin then apply for your business license today .

+1

[Erdogan]

I agree with the first, both posters actually. But do not forget that the basis of the domination system is the fact that the subjects are those who give the masters power and resources, that is from where they get their dominance. Since the tracking of all transactions for tax purposes is so weird, costly, impractical and intrusive, people should and probably will just say no. Certainly, that's what I will do. Report my bitcoin holdings every year? No. Report all transactions? No. Report the net fiat value of coins sold for fiat? Possibly, but not buy in value, where I got them from, how much I have left. No. Not enough people will say yes to this, so the law will go to sleep. The masters have no say in this. They think they have, but they have no say.

Thanks for the thoughtful post Erdogan.  Indeed, the power always rests with the people.  

I disagree with one point: you said "they think they have a say in this," but I believe the IRS simply issued guidance reflecting their interpretation of the current laws.  

Who are "they" anyways?  And how are they different than us?

Correct, it is an opinion, but which mean a lot these unlawful days.

They? The government and their associates, banks, big firms, government owned businesses, half official organizations. They are a set of people. The difference from us, is that they think they are the masters, that they own us, that their power comes from god or the law, or whatever. They think they have the right to every value that is produced, change hands, move or is fixed within a certain geographical area. They leave a little for the producers for their sustenance. The rest is used on themselves and most of it is doled out to different people as payment for support. That is who they are. The rest of us basically wants to be left to peacefully do what we want.

[toknormal]

Gold has industrial value, so its value will remain until viable alternatives compete with those industrial applications.  Fiat and part of BTC value is created by the perception of people like you and me. A piece of paper has no intrinsic value or utility, however BTC goes beyond this and actually does have a very valuable function which is the blockchain.

2tights. I don't think thats necessarily true. Gold's industrial value is peanuts compared to its monetary value.

No monetary media needs to have an industrial value. In fact, it's an important property of any monetary medium that it works as well as possible as a token of exchange and as badly as possible for anything else (other wise it has a tendency to go out of circulation as gold jewellery, circuitry and teeth have done). The monetary medium derives its value from it's "role" in the economy, not from any sense of "intrinsic value" (which is a misnomer anyway - it's easily demonstrate-able that nothing has intrinsic value).

Gold was the "bitcoin" of the old physical world markets. It had certain characteristics of fungibility, resistance to counterfeiting, ilmited supply etc which made it function as a token of value. It was the fact that it was widely adopted in a monetary role that have it it's value - not the other way around.

Here's an example to illustrate. If you go to a kids funpark and buy a few of those plastic tokens for the rides, they'll cost you about 5 Eu / Dollars whatever each. On the other hand, if you buy them in a hardware shop, they'll cost about 1 cent each. So you're paying a markup of many thousands of percent for exactly the same plastic token that is in the monetary role. Nothing to do with "intrinsic value" of plastic tokens.

Gold is exactly the same - it doesn't not have any intrinsic value. It's just that people make a deeply rooted association with gold and value historically, so the word 'intrinsic' gets used to reflect that.

We now live in an electronic trading environment, however and you can't "hold" gold electronically so a new monetary medium is required, hence the emergence of cryptocurrencies.

When you look at it analytically in this way, they actually have more justification for a high valuation than gold does.

[codezilla]

Bitcoin makes taxes more... consentual. Are they going to freeze your BTC if you don't pay? They may imprison you, but they still won't get your precious cyber coins!