Recent events should make everyone withdraw all their coins to their own wallets

[NeuroticFish]

First many still don't know the difference between custodial and non custodial wallet and the benefits of owning a non custodial wallet. Many crypto investors just feel all wallets provides equal benefits

Well pointed out. I feel that this is the main reason for this topic. (PS. You may want to fix your quotes though)

If it is somewhat true that about 5% of the world's people own Bitcoin or have been involved in some way with other cryptocurrencies, then it is clear that most still trust banks more, and that a good portion of those who own a cryptocurrency still trust custodial services. Maybe that will change now that people in Russia are being forced to look for an alternative because of all the sanctions that are in place and those that are yet to come.

Indeed, the percents are very small. I don't know if it's 5%, however, small. But it doesn't necessarily means they trust banks more, I think it means they don't trust (or simply fear of) bitcoin.
It was said for so long that's unsafe to keep money in Bitcoin, most do follow that.
It also doesn't mean that 95% would keep their money in banks, some don't trust banks and keep fiat at home (which makes them perfect targets for thieves).

The problem is that the money in banks is (at least lately in Europe) even backed by the state (under 100k/person/bank, which is usually enough). So extra trust... until something bad happens (remember that in Iceland everybody lost all their bank deposits in 2008? or just look what happens now in Russia and Ukraine too; even in Romania panic did strike and many ATMs were empty yesterday)

If we take El Salvador as an example of a country that first declared Bitcoin a legal tender, Russia may be the second big experiment where Bitcoin will become the best alternative if its financial system collapses. Although I have no doubt that the regime will react very sharply if people start using Bitcoin en masse, which poses a far greater danger to the government than people living in misery and poverty.

El Salvador is a wonderful example to follow, although afaik most people there too use mainly custodian services.
And Russia... I don't know if I want it declare Bitcoin as legal tender, nor used by their government; it may label it criminals' money and I don't want that.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Although I have no doubt that the regime will react very sharply if people start using Bitcoin en masse, which poses a far greater danger to the government than people living in misery and poverty.

The regime is already beating people in the streets simply for questioning Putin's crazy war. There is only so much misery and poverty innocent Russian citizens will take before taking action. Perhaps another Russian Revolution is on the cards.

Russia asked for these tough sanctions and now they have to face them,it is only their fault and only them are to blame (mainly politicians as not all Russians want war).

I don't care in the slightest about Russian oligarchs watching their net worth plummet overnight. I do feel for the innocent citizens who just want to live a peaceful life and will suffer greatly because of their crazy leaders.

The problem is that the money in banks is (at least lately in Europe) even backed by the state (under 100k/person/bank, which is usually enough). So extra trust... until something bad happens (remember that in Iceland everybody lost all their bank deposits in 2008? or just look what happens now in Russia and Ukraine too; even in Romania panic did strike and many ATMs were empty yesterday)

That's the thing. I don't particularly like using banks, but modern life necessitates that I do, and I am relatively happy to leave money with them knowing that they are insured, are backed up by FDIC, if my account is locked I have avenues of recourse and legal action I can take, and so on. With crypto exchanges, you have absolutely none of that. I wouldn't trust any exchange with a single satoshi of my money.

[buwaytress]

For the innocent people in Ukraine bitcoin can certainly be a safe haven right now. Much easier to take it all with you and much easier to cross a border with when compared to fiat. And no possibility of a bank run leaving you with nothing provided you are holding your own coins. And for the innocent people in Russia who don't want any part of Putin's insane war but are being affected by all the sanctions regardless, it also allows them to avoid a bank run as well as offering some stability against the ruble, which is devaluing rapidly and will likely continue to do so. However, again, this is dependent on them holding their own coins, as I fully expect crypto exchanges to start having to comply with international sanctions as well and therefore freeze accounts of Russian citizens.

I remember how nice it was for a lot of Turkish people too, arbitrarily blocked by banking networks in their own country, when they found the "freedom" and "access" of guys like Transferwise and then later Revolute. Wise (as it's now called) then started their own arbitrary blocking, Revolut did the same to some degree of scandal, so I'm definitely sure a lot of people learnt that Bitcoin was the only safe way to protect their own money.

So yes, Russian exchanges -- and any exchange in the region for that matter -- will soon have to comply. If not with the international networks, then with their own (perhaps even more arbitrary) central bank. It'll be worse than bank runs.

[AicecreaME]

Everyone knows you should hold your own keys and coins. Leaving your coins in the control of a third party such as a centralized exchange, web wallet, interest account, etc., means they are not your coins at all and access can be removed at any time. Despite such services frequently locking people out of their accounts and demanding KYC, millions of people continue to hold all their coins with these third parties, wrongly thinking "Well, it will never happen to me."

Then comes the Canadian truckers. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. What I was far more interested in was the government's response, which was to freeze accounts, reverse transactions, and seize money belonging to these people and to people who were donating to them. Not only fiat bank accounts, but also crypto exchange accounts. And yet people still hold their coins on exchanges, knowing that their government can prevent them from accessing their money at any time. I don't know what the logic here is. Maybe "I'm so meek and unassuming I'll never do anything that my government doesn't approve of."

Then comes the Russian invasion. Countries around the world are seizing Russian assets, freezing Russian accounts, embargoing Russian banks, removing Russia from the entire SWIFT system, and more. Sure, this will hurt Putin, but it also hurts every Russian, including the innocent ones who have no desire for war. How do you feel knowing a decision made by your government which you fundamentally disagree with and even protest against could result in all your finances being frozen or seized? There is no logic here. You cannot possibly think "Well, my government would never do such a thing" given the propensity for governments around the world to serve their own interests at the expenses of their citizens all the time.

These last few weeks should be an eye opener for anyone leaving their coins in the custody of any third party. You may find yourself with no access to them at any time, and there will be nothing you can do about it.

Self-mod to prevent spam.

I'm glad someone brought this up. It is indeed, should be our priority to transfer our funds from centralized exchangers to our very own private wallets because unprecedented conflicts could cause an inconvenience the moment new policies and regulations have been imposed. Restrictions are made for a reason. It's just that, no matter what reason and how good it may be, the innocent and those people who aren't really involved and shouldn't be affected will be suffering the consequences too. And no matter what people complain, it won't be eased out because the law applies to everyone and not to the selected people only. Imagine how tragic it would be if all of your funds and assets will be frozen until further notice. If you store everything or most of your funds in banks, then you'll have no other means and options on how to survive. Hence, we should take the current situation between Russia and Ukraine as an eye-opener to the possibility that the same scenario will happen in the future.

Having your funds stored in your own wallet will definitely make you feel secure because you no longer give permission over a third party and central organization the authority over your assets. You can monitor and get a hold of it anytime, anywhere without fearing what would happen if sudden rules will be set by the government and the authorities. Aside from storing your funds in your wallets, I personally recommend storing some cash with you in your trusted place at home or wherever you reside so that if conflicts were to occur, you have a cold cash at hand and will no longer undergo the hassle of withdrawing in an ATM amidst the chaos. You see, we should always be on our guard and we should always be prepared because we only have ourselves to look after for our own welfare if worse comes to worst.

[Dunamisx]

Everyone knows you should hold your own keys and coins. Leaving your coins in the control of a third party such as a centralized exchange, web wallet, interest account, etc., means they are not your coins at all and access can be removed at any time. Despite such services frequently locking people out of their accounts and demanding KYC, millions of people continue to hold all their coins with these third parties, wrongly thinking "Well, it will never happen to me."

The challenge here now is the "technical know how" is it every body that can be able to afford the cost to run a full node transaction considering the technicality, fund and a capacity of about 400gb memory space among others, although use of paper wallet here as such in hardware wallets can still goes along way providing suitable solution to securing privacy and having control over your coins and the respective keys to them.

Then comes the Russian invasion. Countries around the world are seizing Russian assets, freezing Russian accounts, embargoing Russian banks, removing Russia from the entire SWIFT system,

Yes i read it on the news about how account belonging to Russians were laid on embargo and the innocent citizens are suffering for this, and this call for a total avoidance of centralized exchanges because to me using them is synanymous to using fiat banks as they serve as a third party which can be easily use in tracking individual user by government or any private or corporate organizations as no privacy protocol is strictly adhere by them all.

[NeuroticFish]

The challenge here now is the "technical know how" is it every body that can be able to afford the cost to run a full node transaction considering the technicality, fund and a capacity of about 400gb memory space among others, although use of paper wallet here as such in hardware wallets can still goes along way providing suitable solution to securing privacy and having control over your coins and the respective keys to them.

I see no challenge, really. If one has no technical knowledge a hardware wallet covers most of the security he needs and he can continue by reading a few non-technical things, but not much more.
And a light wallet like Electrum for Desktop or Mycelium for Android don't need 400GB and such, they are pretty straightforward and small.
I think that paper wallets are a (technical) step forward, not for everybody.

Yes i read it on the news about how account belonging to Russians were laid on embargo and the innocent citizens are suffering for this, and this call for a total avoidance of centralized exchanges because to me using them is synanymous to using fiat banks as they serve as a third party which can be easily use in tracking individual user by government or any private or corporate organizations as no privacy protocol is strictly adhere by them all.

Indeed, centralized exchanges are somewhat like banks - in relation to KYC, legislation, sanctions -, but they're even worse actually than banks because:
* in Europe 100k EUR/person/bank is backed by the government; this doesn't happen with exchanges, no matter what their owners say (some may be insured or have a reserve fund, but inside job/theft and sloppy handling can happen)
* an exchange may tell it was hacked, close the business and leave you without your coins; or be hacked for real, with same result
* phishing schemes can steal your money usually easier from an exchange than from a bank
* you can easily mistake your overly complicates security settings at certain exchanges (like believing that 2FA keeps your account safe while your API keys are exposed)
* you can get your phone stolen, having both the 2FA and the exchange's app on the phone.

[franky1]

Indeed, centralized exchanges are somewhat like banks - in relation to KYC, legislation, sanctions -, but they're even worse actually than banks because:
* in Europe 100k EUR/person/bank is backed by the government; this doesn't happen with exchanges, no matter what their owners say (some may be insured or have a reserve fund, but inside job/theft and sloppy handling can happen)
* an exchange may tell it was hacked, close the business and leave you without your coins; or be hacked for real, with same result
* phishing schemes can steal your money usually easier from an exchange than from a bank
* you can easily mistake your overly complicates security settings at certain exchanges (like believing that 2FA keeps your account safe while your API keys are exposed)
* you can get your phone stolen, having both the 2FA and the exchange's app on the phone.

to add to the list
banks have to adhere to certain laws. meaning they actually cant just freeze an account on a whim. they have to have just cause.
(court order resulting from an SAR)
however exchanges are a private business and can change their terms and conditions easily. meaning they can set whatever reason they like.
EG there is no laws about taint. but an exchange can set up its own taint blacklist or just stop supporting any currency they like at any time.
also an exchange is a customer of a bank. so an exchange can get frozen out of its own account meaning it cant service its own customers.

[Ozero]

Indeed, the toughest international sanctions are now being imposed on Russia after the invasion of Russian troops into Ukraine. They affect both Putin and his entourage, and every citizen of the Russian Federation as a whole. Especially tangible are and will be the sanctions imposed in the last few days. You write that "this will hurt Putin, but it will hurt every Russian, including the innocent who do not want war..." Let's see if the current citizens of Russia are so innocent?

Now Russian soldiers with heavy armored vehicles are in Ukraine and are shelling peaceful cities of Ukrainians from Grad multiple launch rocket systems and other modern military equipment. The civilian population is dying, including children. Do you think that ordinary Russian citizens are innocent of this? They only resent each other in the kitchen, so that, God forbid, their indignations are not heard and they do not go to jail for this, or alone or in small groups go out to peaceful protests. Do you think that at the same time they did everything in their power to be considered innocent of the death of the civilian population of Ukraine? And the Russian soldier, who is now killing Ukrainian citizens on their territory and is their husband, brother, father, is also not to blame?

The Constitution of the Russian Federation states that this country is a republic and the supreme bearer of power is the people. The President of the Russian Federation is only an official who must be guided by the Constitution and laws of the Russian Federation. If the people allow their President to grossly violate the Constitution, then its people are to blame for this, and it is they who are responsible for this. If they consider themselves free people, and not slaves and a herd of sheep, then they should openly oppose this, and if this does not help, take up arms and kill their President, who has become insolent to the point that he considers himself the king and emperor in this country . There is no other way, and if citizens do not do this, they are guilty of what kind of genocide is now happening in Ukraine.
They need to realize that no one is going to do it for them.

Therefore, Russian "peaceful" citizens. Do not be surprised and do not be indignant if a response flies into your territory and you will already die.

[KingsDen]

The Reason People Use Exchanges:

Nowadays we notice that people leave coins in exchanges even after knowing the implications. I am not an exception in most cases. We keep wondering why, but I see it as something that will continue pending the massive adoption of bitcoin.

• The technicalities involved in rightly securing your bitcoin is much. To get more security,  you need to be more technical. For instance, you don't only need to safe keep your private keys, in most times you need to backup your funds, encrypt your wallet and even go offline storage to be sure you are safe. Most persons can't memorise just 4 digits numbers,  and sometimes they will hide a thing at one corner of the house and next day they will not have the clue of where they kept it.
• Such people as above will always want a trusted party to rely on to save their coins. Again, if they persist to do it themselves, you will here someone doesn't have access to a wallet of x amount of bitcoin
• Some persons are addicted to fiat, either by themselves or family members. They will always want a way to convert their bitcoin to fiat.
• In Ukraine presently, having your money in crypto will ensure it is safe, but you will need it to move. Then it will be difficult. Transportation companies does not accept bitcoin, you still need to sell to fiat and will still suffer same fate with others.
• I think till bitcoin is massively adopted, we still need exchanges and they will exist as long as bitcoin exist. No matter how central, exchanges are better than banks.
• While we leave our daily and weekly spendings on exchanges, life savings or savings for projects should be in a wallet you have the keys.
• For traders who need large portfolios for trading, choose a reputable exchange
• How careful  can one be?

[NeuroticFish]

The technicalities involved in rightly securing your bitcoin is much. To get more security,  you need to be more technical.

You obviously missed this part of the discussion.
Imho it's more like laziness (indifference) + lack of knowledge (risks) than lack of technical knowledge.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Do you think that ordinary Russian citizens are innocent of this? They only resent each other in the kitchen, so that, God forbid, their indignations are not heard and they do not go to jail for this, or alone or in small groups go out to peaceful protests. Do you think that at the same time they did everything in their power to be considered innocent of the death of the civilian population of Ukraine? And the Russian soldier, who is now killing Ukrainian citizens on their territory and is their husband, brother, father, is also not to blame?

The Russian soldiers are obviously not innocent. That doesn't really need spelled out. And neither are the Russian citizens who support the invasion, support Putin, and so on.

But there are many Russian citizens who are against this war. Would it be better if every single one of them hit the streets and started protesting? Sure. But when the likely outcome of the protests is that you are jailed and beaten and the invasion continues anyway, I can't say I blame the ones who don't. There are videos of Russian police even beating protestors who were carrying their babies. Would you go out and protest knowing that if you are jailed and lose your income then your family end up homeless and starving, or thrown in jail and beaten too? Stating that these individuals are just as guilty as the soldiers invading is nonsense.

The Constitution of the Russian Federation states that this country is a republic and the supreme bearer of power is the people. The President of the Russian Federation is only an official who must be guided by the Constitution and laws of the Russian Federation.

That might be the case on paper, but you are deluding yourself if you think that is true in practice. Russia is an authoritarian state.

[Artemis3]

o_e_l_e_o: Actually one captured Russian soldier said they were just told to be part of a military exercise and were suddenly found themselves marching over Ukraine. He said he couldn't disobey orders as that would be an act of treason.


I wonder if people will open their eyes. It seems many Russians did, but they were late.

You shouldn't use exchanges, its the same (if not worse) than using banks. If you have to, only send what you must exchange for daily life, never use it to store funds, you can lose them without warning, just like fiat money in a bank.

Its simple: If its not in your wallet (your keys) its not yours, as it has always been. Why must people need to be told the tale of Mt.Gox a decade later, will people ever learn not to trust others to keep their money?

The reason Bitcoin exists is precisely to stop the State from doing arbitrary things like this. Russia will now face the same thing other countries faced under hyperinflation. As i have warned in this forum many times, when it happens, it is TOO LATE for you to react. You should not keep fiat as savings, you can lose them (or their purchasing power), at any time.

It happened in my country, i know what it is. ATMs become useless, credit cards with ridiculous limits equivalent to 1 USD, and due to sanctions them leaving the country. Banks ordered to only give pitiful amounts of cash to people doing withdraws, until all paper money simply disappears (and even becomes pricier than digital counterparts).

Putin destroyed the ruble when he invaded Ukraine, there is no turning back. He has been given the option to just stop the invasion, but he won't... And the damage to the economy has been done the entire world is angry at him. I suppose he REALLY wanted to return to the old Soviet days, including their economy...

Which serves to reminds us of the dangers of letting the State or the Banks do with your money whatever they wish. One of the largest Russian banks is in danger of going bankrupt, thanks to the legalized ponzi scheme known as fractional reserve. This is a danger inherent in all modern banking, they may be unable to save it; it seems Russia needs to cash out their metals (some of that gold actually came from my country, sad story) but with all their frozen assets, it will be difficult if not much more expensive (ie. black market/laundering, etc).

[Zlantann]

Although having all your coin in a wallet that you can access easily without restrictions is ideal. But the user friendly services of third party companies are very attractive and convenient.

Also in some countries were their is corruption and police brutality, third party companies help not to only safeguard your Bitcoin but to keep them secret. We have had cases where police in some countries have forcefully gained access to people's account through intimidation and torture.

[ChiBitCTy]

Well said. The funny thing is I’ve actually had a decent amount of buddies reach out to me recently asking me how to safely store their bitcoins / cryptocurrencies. The other thing that I think will help drive bitcoin is I’ve had clients reach out to me and ask if their retirement plans can be locked up by the government. While I assure them this is very different from bank accounts, it still instills a level of fear in them that I think will open their eyes to “being your own banks”.

[m2017]

Everyone knows you should hold your own keys and coins. Leaving your coins in the control of a third party such as a centralized exchange, web wallet, interest account, etc., means they are not your coins at all and access can be removed at any time. Despite such services frequently locking people out of their accounts and demanding KYC, millions of people continue to hold all their coins with these third parties, wrongly thinking "Well, it will never happen to me."

This applies not only to cryptocurrensy, but also to any money. I'm talking about traditional. Money that is in any bank, online account or somewhere else, we can be deprived at any time. Recent events make it clear to us that we are the owner only if only we have access to money. No matter what form it is: crypto, online money or fiat.

Can rephrase the words a bit: "not fiat - not your money".

These difficult times, which are coming more every day, remind us that we need to reconsider  attitude to our finances stop blindly trusting 3rd parties with money. Regardless of their form, crypto or traditional.

[o_e_l_e_o]

o_e_l_e_o: Actually one captured Russian soldier said they were just told to be part of a military exercise and were suddenly found themselves marching over Ukraine. He said he couldn't disobey orders as that would be an act of treason.

That's a different situation. If your options are to shoot at innocent people on the whim of some mad dictator, or not do that, then the ethical choice is obvious. Ukraine are also offering amnesty to any surrendering Russian soldiers. That's vastly different to the comparison between protesting against a war and being jailed for it, or staying at home.

This applies not only to cryptocurrensy, but also to any money. I'm talking about traditional. Money that is in any bank, online account or somewhere else, we can be deprived at any time.

Well, the added disadvantage of fiat is that even fiat in your possession as cash can be deprived at any time. Government decides to print trillions of dollars out of thin air? Watch as your cash rapidly devalues. Government decides to invade another country for no good reason? Wave goodbye to half of the value of your money overnight.

[fillippone]

Regarding why you shouldn’t hold your coins on an exchange, today on Twitter this surfaced:



If you leave your coins on an exchange, you leave yourself exposed to those aggressive practices.
Apparently, the Canadian government walked down the dystopian path with cryptos, truckers and democracy.

Two mandatory reads:

Coinbase the most anti-Bitcoin organisation. Make #DeleteCoinbase great again
A Treatise on Bitcoin and Privacy

[o_e_l_e_o]

What's the law in Canada regarding fiat transfers? I can't imagine the KYC limit for them is as low as $1000, which is only $800 USD? In the US it's $10,000. This seems like the Canadian government being particularly hostile to cryptocurrency.

And how is this going to work in practice? Coinbase will refuse to process your withdrawal unless you provide a name and address? And how are they going to verify that? If someone generates a brand new address for you to send coins to, and you tell Coinbase "That address belongs to me", how can they verify otherwise? Or since we already know they monitor your withdraws after you make them and use blockchain analysis to de-anonymize them (so if you do say an address belongs to you and they discover it doesn't they'll seize your coins), what's stopping you withdrawing to your own address first and then sending it to the third party? Which kind of makes the whole point of this thread - exchanges can only enforce this bullshit when you let them hold your money. Get your bitcoin in to your own wallet before it is too late, and be free to spend it wherever, whenever, and however you choose.

And as always, delete Coinbase.

[Doan9269]

I was wondering what their major intent could be by influencing coinbase to include KYC before processing a transaction, this is truly uncalled for and is a bridge against the trust of securing ones privacy with those exchanges, i will advise most especially the bitcoin investors to shift their coin to the wallet rather than on exchanges but for those that do frequent trading like day trading swing or scalping may find using those exchange suitable for their daily trading because they will want to minimize transaction fees and conversion rate using exchanges.


To me we cannot totally avoid the role of exchanges but we can limit the level of risk it may implicate us, that's why if you're investing on bitcoin using exchanges is as risky as playing a gamble with your coins but a little portal of your coin can be on exchanges trading. Well i want to believe there are still lot of bitcoiners out there seriously investing without knowing the existence of a platform like this where they can get more enlightenment, as doing it well is not knowing it all.

[LUCKMCFLY]

I have been seeing some of the speculations about this option, and there is one thing that I did not like that happened in Colombia, is that Binance clients were victims of an investigation process by a foreign country other than Colombia, and the Binance's decision was to freeze all Colombian accounts until they see the origin of the funds of each of the clients, I consider this a violation, for me there is no safer place to have Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies than in one's own wallet without it being managed or in the hands of third parties, because it is assumed that here in crypto the Satoshi values should prevail or for which BTC was created, and this one of the premises is that each person manages his money without the intervention of third parties, from that moment I understood that it is better to keep crypto safe in your own wallet.