Recent events should make everyone withdraw all their coins to their own wallets

[o_e_l_e_o]

Everyone knows you should hold your own keys and coins. Leaving your coins in the control of a third party such as a centralized exchange, web wallet, interest account, etc., means they are not your coins at all and access can be removed at any time. Despite such services frequently locking people out of their accounts and demanding KYC, millions of people continue to hold all their coins with these third parties, wrongly thinking "Well, it will never happen to me."

Then comes the Canadian truckers. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. What I was far more interested in was the government's response, which was to freeze accounts, reverse transactions, and seize money belonging to these people and to people who were donating to them. Not only fiat bank accounts, but also crypto exchange accounts. And yet people still hold their coins on exchanges, knowing that their government can prevent them from accessing their money at any time. I don't know what the logic here is. Maybe "I'm so meek and unassuming I'll never do anything that my government doesn't approve of."

Then comes the Russian invasion. Countries around the world are seizing Russian assets, freezing Russian accounts, embargoing Russian banks, removing Russia from the entire SWIFT system, and more. Sure, this will hurt Putin, but it also hurts every Russian, including the innocent ones who have no desire for war. How do you feel knowing a decision made by your government which you fundamentally disagree with and even protest against could result in all your finances being frozen or seized? There is no logic here. You cannot possibly think "Well, my government would never do such a thing" given the propensity for governments around the world to serve their own interests at the expenses of their citizens all the time.

These last few weeks should be an eye opener for anyone leaving their coins in the custody of any third party. You may find yourself with no access to them at any time, and there will be nothing you can do about it.

Self-mod to prevent spam.

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[DaveF]

You left out the point of "So long as you know what you are doing and practice good security"

I work in IT, the security I see SOOOO many intelligent people implement is a joke no matter how hard I try.

Is it better to have your coins frozen by Coinbase because the government told them too or have them stolen by a hacker because you went to a phishing site and got some clipboard malware?

-Dave

[NeuroticFish]

Then comes the Canadian truckers.
~snip~
Then comes the Russian invasion.

Binance freezing the funds of Nigerian customers may also worth mentioning.

You left out the point of "So long as you know what you are doing and practice good security"

While you are completely right, I feel that properly securing the wallet (and usage) is another topic. A very important one, still, a different topic.

[pinggoki]

That's what I am worrying right now, I am jittery right now and nervous because I can't wait for my Trezor to arrive which I am going to use to evacuate all of my funds into, this is a dire time. Thankfully and fortunately, I am not from Europe so I can rest easy for awhile knowing that I'll be able get my funds transferred on time, to everyone who has doubts or doesn't want to do the same, heed my word: it will be your fault when the exchanges go down and you lost your funds.

[SatoPrincess]

Then comes the Canadian truckers. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. What I was far more interested in was the government's response, which was to freeze accounts, reverse transactions, and seize money belonging to these people and to people who were donating to them. Not only fiat bank accounts, but also crypto exchange accounts. And yet people still hold their coins on exchanges, knowing that their government can prevent them from accessing their money at any time. I don't know what the logic here is. Maybe "I'm so meek and unassuming I'll never do anything that my government doesn't approve of.

This is the purpose why Satoshi created bitcoin. To give the people liberation from the traditional systems, banks, government. In this type of situation bitcoin is the only hope. But using a third party service (centralized exchanges) means you’re not in control of your bitcoins. In fact when you store your bitcoins in an exchange you really have no bitcoin. “Not your keys not your coins”. People forget exchanges are regulated and are the same as banks.

[romero121]

With the user friendly access people are much used to the third party services. Only through experience people will learn, and now with the suffering of spending ones own money people around will realise why one should avoid using centralized services and exchanges. It'll be good if someone gives a briefing on what all the wallets that can be used to overcome such issues. The following comes under my search Electrum, Exodus, Ledger Nano X, Trezor One, Zengo, Wasabi.

[NotATether]

Then comes the Russian invasion. Countries around the world are seizing Russian assets, freezing Russian accounts, embargoing Russian banks, removing Russia from the entire SWIFT system, and more.

[Actually they decided not to remove Russia from SWIFT because Russia already built a SWIFT alternative and this kind of action would diminish the western political leverage of SWIFT].

I imagine it sucks to live in Europe, UK or US with e.g. a VTB credit card since payments could be blocked and (much more likely) ATM withdrawals and possibly even wire transfers to banks in those territories will be blocked.

Hence why it's just as bad to keep all your money in a single bank account or credit card as well.

[DaveF]

While you are completely right, I feel that properly securing the wallet (and usage) is another topic. A very important one, still, a different topic.

The question, which should be discussed with both topics is which is more important?
@o_e_l_e_o has made his views 100% known that privacy and anonymity are a tiny bit more important then security and ease of use.^{1 & 2 & 3}
I have never hidden the fact that I think security is a bit more important, because I feel once security is violated in any small way, even where a lot of people don't understand how or why the rest does not matter. They have you and possibly your coins.

^1: o_e_l_e_o I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I really feel that is your view.

^2: Really, really, really hiding yourself & your coins from the Govt & authorities is a lot harder then most people think. It's just that for the most part they are not looking real hard for you & your coins. But with a bit of effort and time it's not that hard for them to track.

^3: The more steps you add to hide you & your coins makes it more difficult to track you BUT the more steps you have to take, does make it more likely you will mess up one of them somewhere sometime.

-Dave

[o_e_l_e_o]

Binance freezing the funds of Nigerian customers may also worth mentioning.

Another fine example.

Actually they decided not to remove Russia from SWIFT because Russia already built a SWIFT alternative and this kind of action would diminish the western political leverage of SWIFT.

I don't think that's been decided yet. Plenty of countries still pushing for it, and countries which were previously against it such as Hungary and Cyprus are today saying they would not block such a move.

@o_e_l_e_o has made his views 100% known that privacy and anonymity are a tiny bit more important then security and ease of use.

More important than ease of use? Absolutely. Not more important than security, though. I'm also pretty vocal about my use of airgapped wallets and hardware wallets over simple software wallets. Although generally the wallets which are easy to use (web wallets, simple software wallets, third party accounts) rank pretty low on both the security and privacy fronts. And taking your security seriously by storing your own keys and coins yourself is the first step to extracting yourself from the privacy invasion of centralized exchanges.

It's just that for the most part they are not looking real hard for you & your coins. But with a bit of effort and time it's not that hard for them to track.

True, but two things to consider. First, even if they locate your wallets, they still can't remotely seize them against your will like they can if you are holding your coins with a third party. Secondly, it is very easy for a government to say to an exchange "Ban all accounts from this region/country", whereas most governments do not have the time or resources to track down the personal wallets of every person in the country.

[NeuroticFish]

The question, which should be discussed with both topics is which is more important?

Security is the most important one imho. And imho security doesn't necessarily means hiding from govt. Security means that you can have control over your funds anytime, no matter what (as long as you have electricity and internet, obviously).

Exchanges, with their KYC and SAFU can give a false sense of security. And imho this is the topic about: just another angle for "not your keys, not your coins".

Securing properly the wallet and the use is another, much wider topic, from basics like hardware wallet, clipboard malware and even "don't send your coins to an alleged Elon Musk promising he will double them", to more advanced things like "why Windows is bad", use of cold storage and safe generation of paper wallets, maybe also mixing and hide from govt, if you want to.

[The Cryptovator]

Well, this is the common thing actually and discussed over and over to the forum. But still happening the same thing with us. The problem is even we don't want to hold our crypto assets on a centralized exchange, but still we are forced to use them to make them liquid. During that time also problems would happen. But for a big loss and big risk, we should ignore centralized exchange for storing crypto assets. Just buy and move to the non-custodial wallet. When need to sell just move into the exchange and convert for Liquidity. For that also we need reputed exchange though there is no guarantee freezing account. We can't always choose decentralized exchange due to Liquidity and availability of trading pairs.

[Welsh]

The tragic thing is, rapid adoption of Bitcoin will likely come from the misery of others. For example, with the Russian vs Ukrainian situation, regardless of what your view point is on the politics of it all, ultimately the people are the ones that are having the biggest impact, and will likely seek alternatives to fiat after having issues withdrawing their money after the attack. It's quite sad seeing people delay their evacuation to queue up outside a bank looking to withdraw their own money, and likely probably being rejected for whatever reason.

Also, it likely means that someone will have to lose money through a bank due to various reasons such as freezing etc, before they make the move. I was probably one of the lucky ones which discovered Bitcoin for other reasons other than losing money.

Security is the most important one imho. And imho security doesn't necessarily means hiding from govt. Security means that you can have control over your funds anytime, no matter what (as long as you have electricity and internet, obviously).

Exchanges, with their KYC and SAFU can give a false sense of security. And imho this is the topic about: just another angle for "not your keys, not your coins".

Securing properly the wallet and the use is another, much wider topic, from basics like hardware wallet, clipboard malware and even "don't send your coins to an alleged Elon Musk promising he will double them", to more advanced things like "why Windows is bad", use of cold storage and safe generation of paper wallets, maybe also mixing and hide from govt, if you want to.

The issue is most people won't implement good enough security practices, and being responsible for your own money is a rather big responsibility which a lot of people won't be comfortable with. We can't change that, I know some people that would rather trust other people than themselves because of lack of knowledge. If we think about it, security is a big deal, but actually following, and understanding security is a bigger deal, which more often than not people don't have a grasp on. Whether this is through not having the motivation, education or simply being complacent. I don't know about others on this thread, but I've witnessed so called security experts with high positions in companies that are responsible for some pretty serious money, absolutely disregard the most basic security measures, so it does beg the question whether a average person who isn't security oriented would be willing to brush up on their security knowledge, and/or implement it properly.

Personally, I think by design Bitcoin is the best solution for storing your wealth I think we can all probably agree on that, and it's by a long margin when handled correctly better than any bank out there. However, I don't have faith that the majority who come to Bitcoin will follow the recommended ways of securing it, and that could potentially be a problem. Obviously, we try to make Bitcoin more user friendly, but because of the nature of it, there's a ceiling to how user friendly we can make it, Bitcoin will always have some sort of complexity because your looking after your own security. I don't think there's a solution to that.

[franky1]

it is true that giving funds over to a custodian means you are not in control. because you are not a key holder to just 'spend' them back to yourself on a safer key. you have to request the custodian to spend them to you.

if they are obligated/or just decide to not authorise your request, you wont get coins back
(scammer exchange with fake 'we been hacked' mottos to pretend they cant give coins because they lost coins)
(court order to freeze account)

however it must also be noted that people need to have some self control about their own security.
as some believe just having key control is the absolute sole need of security and nothing else needs to be done

by needing extra self control of security i mean, not advertising your real life association to the coins.
examples of how coins were still taken even on peoples individual keys:

dread pirate roberts was found and cybercrimes teams accessed his files
bitfinex thieves had private keys on a cloudstore file
drug addict doped up father to then steal his wallet
scammers/hackers get people to download trojans
soon to be ex wife claims 50% custody of coins in divorce
pickpocket snatches phone wallet out of pants
face to face meetup goes bad, someone brought a knife
SWAT smash front door in and find hardware wallet under pillow

its true that no one can brute force your value away from you from the network side. but people can brute force:
your front door of your house
your PC
a couple of your ribs/cheekbones to get to your coins

so take control of your coins and also ensure people cant take control of you via threats

the trucker fundraiser is where there are some private key holders. but the courtcase was not instigated by government making a claim. it was actually by a few citizens of ottowa making a claim. whereby even without those plaintiffs having key access. they have put penalties onto the key holders that if the coins move the keyholders can be fined and/or put in prison.

so its not just the government you have to worry about. you should be cautious with what you tell your jealous/greedy neighbours too

[pawanjain]

You are very correct. The current situation is really an eye opener for many and this may boost the adoption of bitcoin once the dust settles.
People are literally standing in long queues outside ATMs while most ATMs are out of money.
I even read that few people used bitcoin to buy a car to flee out of Ukraine. Now this gives me shivers as to how bad the condition would be out there.
Bitcoin would have helped so many people in buying things during such a crisis.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Also, it likely means that someone will have to lose money through a bank due to various reasons such as freezing etc, before they make the move.

This I think is one of the biggest issues. We go on and on about not your keys, not your coins, but millions of users ignore this. As I mentioned in my first post, so many people have the mindset "Well, it hasn't happened to me yet, so I'll be fine to continue using this centralized exchange or following this risky behavior or whatever". It's like someone saying "Well I never wear a seatbelt and I'm still alive, so therefore it's a perfectly safe thing to do". Even in threads where users complain about Coinbase, Binance, or whatever arbitrarily locking them out of their coins for no reason, plenty of users chime in with "I store all my coins there and have never had a problem", which completely misses the point. No one has a problem until you do, which point it is too late. Take control of your coins now.

The same goes for privacy. We can read stories about other people having their identities sold on the deep web all day, or having their data used by criminals to target them, but many people only start caring about their privacy after they personally have been affected, at which point it is too late.

[aoluain]

That's what I am worrying right now, I am jittery right now and nervous because I can't wait for my Trezor to arrive which I am going to use to evacuate all of my funds into, this is a dire time. Thankfully and fortunately, I am not from Europe so I can rest easy for awhile knowing that I'll be able get my funds transferred on time, to everyone who has doubts or doesn't want to do the same, heed my word: it will be your fault when the exchanges go down and you lost your funds.

Very good to hear you ^{and hopefully many more people} have taken
the step to SECURE your Bitcoin/Satoshi's for the sake of $100/0.0025BTC

In the case of exchanges, they should be used only for exchanging.

The tragic thing is, rapid adoption of Bitcoin will likely come from the misery of others. For example, with the Russian vs Ukrainian situation, regardless of what your view point is on the politics of it all, ultimately the people are the ones that are having the biggest impact, and will likely seek alternatives to fiat after having issues withdrawing their money after the attack. It's quite sad seeing people delay their evacuation to queue up outside a bank looking to withdraw their own money, and likely probably being rejected for whatever reason.

We saw this before and a lot of people have probably forgotten what happened
in Greece back in 2015.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/greece-crisis-banks-shut-week-restrictions-imposed-atms-n383606

Personally, I think by design Bitcoin is the best solution for storing your wealth I think we can all probably agree on that, and it's by a long margin when handled correctly better than any bank out there. However, I don't have faith that the majority who come to Bitcoin will follow the recommended ways of securing it, and that could potentially be a problem. Obviously, we try to make Bitcoin more user friendly, but because of the nature of it, there's a ceiling to how user friendly we can make it, Bitcoin will always have some sort of complexity because your looking after your own security. I don't think there's a solution to that.

and unfortunately the majority of people around the world dont realise Bitcoins
power and will continue to be skeptical of Bitcoin.

[Ararbermas]

That's really scary because i used to store money in exchange as well, although i know that its impossible to happen here in our country since we are too far from that war, but the world "freezing account" makes me worrying.. To be honest i don't have choice because of fees so i hope it didn't happen and the exchange that I'm using will not shutdown because of what's happening to those countries. .  

[kryptqnick]

Only hodling private keys is something that can ensure keeping the funds, that's true. What I don't like, of course, is the examples on which people learn their lessons. Canadian truckers were blocking strategic roads and promoted anti-vaccination propaganda in the middle of the pandemic. Russia was and is still being hit by sanctions because they invaded a sovereign state, and those innocents who don't want a war must go and tell so to their government on their central squares, organize strikes or advocate in any other way against the war. Otherwise they're complicit. But those who do protest and express support must, of course, have access to their funds. So I hope they will use Bitcoin for good, just like people in Ukraine do now when they donate money to the army in Bitcoin. But there's also another side: unless there's enough adoption of Bitcoin as a direct form of payment, keeping Bitcoin in one's own wallet can only do so much because then fiat is still needed to actually use the money, and this means banks and exchanges which can fall under sanctions.

[Anonylz]

Sure there is a high risk of leaving your funds in an exchange-controlled wallet because of unforeseen circumstances like the one happening right now with Russia and Ukraine, and other risks like exchange hack et al. However, there are several reasons that compel some people to have their funds in the exchange, same applies to having your funds in the bank, can you imagine someone having a stack of physical cash at home? That will be like inviting trouble especially when you are in a not-so-secured country.
There is a good and bad side of both, perhaps the former has a much higher risk than the latter.

[o_e_l_e_o]

To be honest i don't have choice because of fees so i hope it didn't happen and the exchange that I'm using will not shutdown because of what's happening to those countries.

You always have a choice. What fees are you referring to here? Exchange withdrawal fees?

Canadian truckers were blocking strategic roads and promoted anti-vaccination propaganda in the middle of the pandemic. Russia was and is still being hit by sanctions because they invaded a sovereign state

As I said in my first post, the reason behind the funds being frozen or seized is irrelevant. The important thing is that it can happen, it is happening, and it is happening to innocent people through no action or fault of their own. I am vehemently opposed to both anti-vaxxers and to Putin's invasion of Ukraine, but maybe next week something I am in support of leads to funds being frozen. Either bitcoin is decentralized or it isn't. You can't pick and choose who it is decentralized for. The bottom line here isn't whether you think these people should or should not have their funds frozen - it's that if you don't want to be at risk of having your funds frozen, you need to hold them yourself.

can you imagine someone having a stack of physical cash at home? That will be like inviting trouble especially when you are in a not-so-secured country.

If someone can break in to your house and force you to hand over you seed phrase or wallet, they can break in to your house and force you to hand over the password to your exchange account. Keeping funds on an exchange instead of your own wallet provides zero security against physical threats.