Paying with Bitcoin where there's rush

[BitcoinsGreat]

I think that bitcoin lightning network will solve this late transactions confirmation problem to some extent. For a very small amount of transactions, i think the stores should allow other crypto currencies too so that paying a small amount is not hectic both in term of fee and time.

[franky1]

what physical retailers know is this

those wanting to steal items of under $100, dont bother with chargeback crap. they dont even bother using counterfeit cash or cheques that bounce. because the whole 'witness' thing of security camera's and cashiers and fingerprint identity would get a person in alot of trouble for a small amount.
in those sub $100 amounts the thief would just put the item under their shirt, making sure they are not seen.. and just walk out without trying to pay.
its why the banks do not mind 'swipe and pay'/'tap and pay' apps/cards for items under $100 without need of entering a pin number.
because the likely hood is low of someone defrauding a purchase of low value but done so at a highly evidential/punishable crime if caught,

its why cheques have a 'guarantee card' that backs the balance over a certain amount. its why cards require a pin number over a certain amount. its why retailers do visual and UV light checks on large amounts of cash.
(hand a cashier 1x $10 they dont check it, hand a cashier 20x$10, they check every note twice)

if someone is spending say $5 with bitcoin, at a sit-down table service cafe. and it would cost a $2 tx fee to RBF one tx for another, someone is not going to waste the time and cost him 40% to try to defraud a coffee shop while knowing it takes the waiter 10 minutes to sit the person at a table and then make the coffee order and serve the coffee. especially when its then not only an embarrassment to then be confronted with your malicious act, but gets you in trouble for it too.
..so coffee shops wont worry about zero-confirms for such small amounts.

as for amounts of $20-$200. users dont want to have to pre-plan a months spending ahead of time and organise their funds into fiat accounts or altnet channels hoping that it will be enough to cover all possible spending. and then hope once its in these accounts/channels, they can use it freely.. instead they will find other same-day methods. EG buying a giftcard on their lunchbreak walk to starbucks or local deli/supermarket

these 'faster payment' altnets do have small use-cases and niche utility when all circumstances align and are well pre-planned and organised as to future spending habits. but they should not be seen as the replacement of bitcoin utility.
also these altnets should try better to highlight more of its own flaws, rather then try making bitcoin look useless to subtly mention their altnet

definitely not subtly advertising their altnet as a defacto solution to current issues with bitcoin. instead people need to see that its actually far easier to buy a giftcard using BITCOIN on a lunchbreak. then it is to lock up bitcoin to play on an altnet weeks before you even go to lunch.
and yes even in an altnet. there are ways of doing chargebacks. user refuses to sign its hubs latest commitment. forcing the hub to broadcast an older commitment, which the user can then use the revocation to chargeback on the hub.
as can the hub do the same against its customer

heck there are even "turbo" ways to fake a channel balance and fake a payment that is not backed by locked funds. (serious flaw)

blackmail/scamming/extortion can happen in altnets too. (but shh i been told to not mention flaws of altnets, oops.. they dont like it when i mention their flaws, whilst they are happy to try making bitcoin look bad and useless)

anyway. i dont need altnets and i dont need to exchange to fiat hours/days in advance. i do and can buy things in the real world using my bitcoin while at lunch/putting things in a shopping cart

[stepwilli]

Would be a risky option for a business owner to consider when it’s offline shopping, you don’t want to keep waiting for a transaction to be confirmed. I think it’s best to make use of Bitcoin when you’re making a purchase online and time is not a problem, that way both parties are able to wait for the transaction to be confirmed and not minding how long it’s going to take.

But, in a situation whereby you went to a store to buy something and you have to stand in a long queue to make transaction, this is not the best option as it is going to delay the process, so the store would want to use an option that would be faster for them.

[_act_]

[...]

You're correct, but that's up to credit.

When I pay with cash:

• The merchant sees the transaction immediately.
• The merchant receives the money immediately.
• The transaction is settled immediately and cannot be reversed.

Most businesses have bank account that is for business and the name of the company is registered in the country, all these will be looked into after someone will report the transaction, if it is a company's account, the bank will first have to contact the company of what is going on. It will be hard to fraud with this.

In a congested shopping mall, I still think it will be hard to use bitcoin for making payment, the 10 minutes on average confirmation time is another issue. The amount of fee used for bitcoin payment will not be known and the fee can be very low.

But if bitcoin ATM is used for the transaction, using a good fee that can get the transaction confirmed fast will be used and the transaction will not be RBF which can still make this possible by the shopping mall to accept non RBF transaction but which its fee is also high enough to get transaction confirmed very fast in 10 minutes on average, Bitcoin ATM can do that and the shopping mall can confirm if truly the transaction is not RBF transaction. This is solved.

[Cling18]

Even if you only accept fiat, there's always the possibility that someone give you fake cash or pick up the good and run away from your shop.

There are money checkers that can detect fake cash. You should not even attempt it in a supermarket as there are cameras everywhere. Besides, not getting your transaction confirmed isn't necessarily done on purpose, and even worse: You can't know if it's done on purpose. It's a function of the system.

It's now hard to fake cash because cashiers and grocery staffs are now smart when it comes to double-checking it. Unfortunately, small businesses are still often victimized by fake money especially elderly vendors. We're lucky because in our city, there's a single grocery store that accept Bitcoin which is really convenient to us.

[BlackHatCoiner]

[...]

I honestly believe that it can work in practice, but how can you convince someone accept it if there's such a worrying drawback? On the other hand, you've already convinced them to accept credit & debit payments. Hmm, I don't know. It sounds plainly wrong to consider an unconfirmed transaction as settled, but you've made some good points.

I think it's more profitable now not to spend bitcoins. At least in the current situation.

This opens another discussion. Keep it on-topic.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I honestly believe that it can work in practice, but how can you convince someone accept it if there's such a worrying drawback?

Just explain to them what I've explained above. There are plenty of stores I shop in which accept zero confirmation non-RBF transactions for small purchases, and I'm not aware of any of them being scammed. It's just not worth the time and effort. For can set a price limit beyond which they want to wait for a confirmation or two.

Other possible options:

• Get them to use Lightning instead.
• Get them to open an account for each customer which you can deposit to in advance.
• Send them bitcoin as soon as you enter the store and have them refund the difference after you've checked out.
• In the case of a local farmers' market, I used to pay for goods and he would hold them for me while the transaction confirmed while I checked out some other stalls and then returned to pick up my goods. Now he is comfortable enough with bitcoin and I've bought enough stuff from him that he'll just accept my zero confirmation transaction.

It sounds plainly wrong to consider an unconfirmed transaction as settled, but you've made some good points.

An unconfirmed transaction definitely isn't settled, but neither is a credit card transaction. The point is an unconfirmed (non-RBF with a decent fee) bitcoin transaction is extremely difficult and probably very costly to reverse and can only be reversed for 10 minutes, whereas a credit card transaction is trivially easy to reverse for up to 6 months at almost no cost.

[kryptqnick]

Today, while I was shopping, I surprisingly witnessed a young teen (around 16-17) who asked the supermarket cashier if the operators think of accepting cryptocurrencies nowadays that it's being a "thing", which is kinda unusual in my areas; I don't know about you, but Bitcoin isn't even in the threshold of being considered an investment where I live, let alone a currency. He got a negative response.

This made me thoughtful. What happens when you want to pay with Bitcoin where there's rush, say a long queue of people which happens to be the case pretty often at supermarkets? On-chain is definitely not an option as you want from the transaction to take few seconds, so the next customer can push their products up. However, Lightning can become such a hustle when you want to transfer the equivalent of 200-300 EUR. Just to think that an issue with routing or capacity occurs while others wait for you, scares me.

The only thing that comes to my mind is to accept unconfirmed transactions with disabled RBF. Now, whether the amount is decent to pay a miner half of it for double-spending is another thing to discuss. It's not ideal and I'm sure those few-seconds-interval cryptos will find their way to attract by taking advantage of this "unfortunately sounded" problem. 

Younger people feel more attached to digital marvels of the world because they were growing up, having them around, and so there's no distinction between real and virtual for them. I'm glad someone's asking around about Bitcoin payments. It won't change anything immediately, but it can be a way of slowly showing that there's a demand for it and thus increasing a chance of one day getting a positive answer to such questions. But yes, there are technical difficulties with making it go through, unless we're talking about a system of custodial wallets being used both by customers and by merchants, and in that case it can basically work off-chain.

[cryotreasure]

At present, according to my friends and I, we usually choose cryptocurrency payment in large transactions and cross-border transactions I don't think cryptocurrency has any advantages in micro payment. It can be said that it's not very convenient.

[jostorres]

On-chain is definitely not an option as you want from the transaction to take few seconds, so the next customer can push their products up. However, Lightning can become such a hustle when you want to transfer the equivalent of 200-300 EUR. Just to think that an issue with routing or capacity occurs while others wait for you, scares me.

This is the reason that I have concluded long back itself that bitcoin is not for transaction but only for settlement. Unfortunately (and not sure unintentionally as well) Mr. Satoshi has designed bitcoin in way not suitable for day to day spending; here are the few proof for that:

1. Deflation: Gold is not in use for super market spending then why bitcoin?
2. 1 MB block: Segwit may go effective less in next few years which will emphasize that we should not try to spend bitcoin for unnecessary things but only for life's essentials. Because, it is an asset class.
3. 10 minutes block interval: It is not a concern when spending bitcoin once in a while.

[dbc23]

Sending out wouldnt really be a problem but waiting for at least 1 confirmation does because making out the things get paid already via unconfirmed transaction would really be that risky for that business owner yet there's

Once the transaction is unconfirmed in the recipients wallet there will be no need for panic because definitely the transaction will be confirmed and verified. and on average it takes 10 minutes for a single transaction to get confirmed so depending on the number of transaction on the mempool  it could even be faster than most than fiat transfers

always a tendency for double spend which i do agree that some altcoins do already solve out this kind of problem which im not really that surprised that adoption on terms of payment system would really be that still in

Bitcoin first solved the issue of double spending by sending all transaction to a network of volunteer miners who ensures each transaction is been spent by the real owner and the also that the spender has enough output to initiate a new input

doubt because of this scenario.This would totally slow down the total operation or flow on times like this unlike with having fiat which you could simply give out then wait for the change.

Fiat too can pose it's own delay in transaction mostly due to poor internet access or unnecessary transaction delay. For in situation of long queues bitcoin could be a faster option

[Doan9269]

I personally  don't see the need to getting  on a hurry in making a transaction either by the sender or the receiver because if any mistake is observed it will cost more than it will pays and such mistakes in cryptocurrency are mostly not correctible,  so why the rush? The sender must be willing  to sacrifice the little patience needed and same as the receiver  must first confirm the reception before further endorsement,  considering the fiat system,  if a transaction  is not confirmed first there will not be any further procedure  to make a purchase and this traditional system is what we all have been using right from time even before bitcoin comes in place,  moreover this cryptocurrency is more far secured and faster than the fiat banking system,  so why the rush?   

[Slow death]

well this is a problem that has been discussed for years, bitcoin needs to be very fast to be useful in a situation where the person wants to pay something and is in a hurry because there are more people in line to make payments, in my country for example in every corner has a long queue to make a payment and people complain a lot when someone else takes time to make payment, bitcoin would not be useful in that situation, it would just make people from my country be fighting each other

[BlackHatCoiner]

There are plenty of stores I shop in which accept zero confirmation non-RBF transactions for small purchases

They must be small businesses. I know none that does it, although I only know two stores in my area country that do accept it, in general. 

1. Deflation: Gold is not in use for super market spending then why bitcoin?

We don't use gold as currency for lots of reasons other than deflation. For instance, it's not easily transferable, divisible, verifiable. On the other hand there are plenty of reasons why you should use Bitcoin; from those I mentioned to privacy, censorship-resistance, transparency and nearly zero-cost transactions.

Once the transaction is unconfirmed in the recipients wallet there will be no need for panic because definitely the transaction will be confirmed and verified.

This is false. I can create a transaction, even with RBF disabled, and bribe miner(s) not to take it into consideration while it will appear in everyone's mempool.

[AmoreJaz]

At present, according to my friends and I, we usually choose cryptocurrency payment in large transactions and cross-border transactions I don't think cryptocurrency has any advantages in micro payment. It can be said that it's not very convenient.

right now, it is not practical to pay bitcoin if you are just paying few bucks for your item. but i can very well agree with what you gave as an example, cross-border transactions. in that case, you don't need third party to execute your transaction but you can do it on your own and even setting how much fee you will pay. if you are not in a hurry, you can pay at a minimal cost. whereas, if you use WU or any other remittance company, you will pay a hefty amount and it would take time before it will be received. now, if the other party knows how to deal with BTC, you can easily send it to him without interruption of 3rd party and no paperworks needed.
now, in the case of paying BTC during rush hour or of that sort, i don't know if it is practical because you still need to wait, depending on the merchant's requirement. i can understand if there is a different queue for crypto payment, which i can say that there won't be any line for most stores, which you can take advantage of.

[adzino]

Today, while I was shopping, I surprisingly witnessed a young teen (around 16-17) who asked the supermarket cashier if the operators think of accepting cryptocurrencies nowadays that it's being a "thing", which is kinda unusual in my areas; I don't know about you, but Bitcoin isn't even in the threshold of being considered an investment where I live, let alone a currency. He got a negative response.

This made me thoughtful. What happens when you want to pay with Bitcoin where there's rush, say a long queue of people which happens to be the case pretty often at supermarkets? On-chain is definitely not an option as you want from the transaction to take few seconds, so the next customer can push their products up. However, Lightning can become such a hustle when you want to transfer the equivalent of 200-300 EUR. Just to think that an issue with routing or capacity occurs while others wait for you, scares me.

The only thing that comes to my mind is to accept unconfirmed transactions with disabled RBF. Now, whether the amount is decent to pay a miner half of it for double-spending is another thing to discuss. It's not ideal and I'm sure those few-seconds-interval cryptos will find their way to attract by taking advantage of this "unfortunately sounded" problem.  

Unless a better solution is found, off chain transaction is the only option over here. Or used a centralized service that will allow you to spend bitcoin instantly through offchain transaction. Like those bitcoin credit cards where you pay with bitcoin using your card and the merchant can opt to either receive in fiat or bitcoin.
No system is perfect yet. Right now if they want to use crypto currencies, they can use other altcoins that has almost instant confirmation time.

Bitcoin is used for crime and it'll scare a lot of people away from accepting bitcoin just like the teenager Op called out that got a negative response.

Fiat is used for crime too. Does it scare a lot of people away?

[Haunebu]

BTC isn't a feasible solution currently to your query op primarily due to the issues that you highlighted yourself. Altcoins like LTC, Doge etc are better solutions, but most people don't completely trust them.

This is why FIAT will always be the primary currency while popular cryptocurrencies like BTC, LTC etc could serve as feasible secondary options as long as people are willing to trust them.

Trust in such cryptocurrencies is slowly and steadily building up over time(Eg: Recent war led to many people relying on crypto instead of their local FIAT).

[Fundamentals Of]

In a rush or in a long queue where people are waiting and some are probably even irritated already, nothing can defeat cash. Cash is the most efficient payment option if you are in a hurry. I have experienced this many times. It often irritates me when I'm in a hurry in the grocery store or in the department store and the person in front of me pays in card, either in debit or credit. It takes a while. They need to insert and reinsert the card, sometimes type and retype the PIN, issue a separate receipt, etc. If it were done with cash, it would be very quick.

[franky1]

BTC isn't a feasible solution currently to your query op

BTC is feasible for many things. but whats not obvious to most is that the OP is trying to be subtle with hints of bitcoin being useless for daily use stuff(not his first carousal ride on his merry go round). so that he can subtly hint and suggest other altnets as solutions

recently he was trying to blame bitcoiners for not spending value to lobby governments to stop asking exchanges to perform KYC. even though a smarter person than him knows that the point of KYC is about tax, laundering, crime and terrorist prevention. which no government would decide to take a blind eye to and drop KYC. yet oops, it must be(in his view) bitcoiners fault why exchanges are asking for KYC due to lack of confidence in the bitcoin community having any desires of privacy. thus then advertising that people should move other to things like ethereum to then 'de-fi'
heck he was even trying to raise the anger into making people stop using exchanges which would cause a price crash on bitcoin.. how obvious is that .. too obvious.

he is trying many subtle and not so subtle ways to make people think bitcoin is not useful in peoples daily lives. and that manipulation has not gone un-noticed

i guarantee you within a couple weeks he will make another hypothetical scenario where he pretends that he found another flaw that can benefit from people using a different network
(he and his chums dont like it when i out their campaigns)

the game of advertising altnets has got so ramped up that even in this topic oeleo and blackhatcoiner are pretending to be opposing view points but subtly they are on the same side.. trying to hide their allegiances of an altnet

blackhatcoiner is just less subtle about his preference of altnets. at first i thought oeleo was maybe leaving his chum group and actually becoming a bitcoiner, but his subtle schemes have not been that convincing because he still advertises his favoured altnet as top of his list possible "solutions", pretending the altnet(in many topics) is bitcoin and there is no difference between using the altnet and using bitcoin.. (facepalm)

Other possible options:
    Get them to use [another altnet] instead.

sorry but im sticking with bitcoin

[o_e_l_e_o]

No system is perfect yet. Right now if they want to use crypto currencies, they can use other altcoins that has almost instant confirmation time.

They are instant because they are either centralized or insecure.

Altcoins like LTC, Doge etc are better solutions, but most people don't completely trust them.

Neither Litecoin nor Dogecoin solve this issue.

The block times of these coins are 2.5 minutes and 1 minute respectively. This is till not fast enough for a point of sale transaction, which needs to be instant. Even 1 minute for a confirmation is too long for any retailer with a queue of a few people waiting. Further, a 1 minute confirmation time means a large increase in the number of stale blocks, which means waiting far longer than 1 minute anyway to ensure the block you are looking at isn't replaced for a competing block at the same height.

As I said above, the main solution is to either accept zero confirmation non-RBF transactions for small values or to use Lightning.