Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[hymperion]

Sorry guys if I wrote in Italian, but I posted first in the Italian section and I'm copy pasting. Post the result of the experiment in water and sulfuric acid of the washers started 2 years ago.

As soon as I have some time I will edit and translate it

E bene ragazzi a distanza di 2 anni dichiaro terminato l'esperimento in condizioni estreme delle rondelle di backup. (Non mi aspettavo il secondo risultato sinceramente)

LINK : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg61365208#msg61365208

Ed ecco qui i risultati:





Come potete vedere anche se è rimasta in acqua per 2 anni c'è solo qualche accenno di ruggine , ma la zincatura mantiene, la scritta incisa è ancora ben visibile. Ergo non è necessario acquistare obbligatoriamente rondelle in acciaio INOX per prevenire la corrosione, in ambiente umido prima che la ruggine rovini l'incisione ci vorrebbero decenni.

Passiamo all altro test, quello in acido H2SO4, condizioni ben più estreme:



Si è formato un deposito sul fondo, abbastanza solido, pensavo che la rondella si trovasse al suo interno e invece ecco ciò che è rimasto di essa:

picture hosting

E' rimasto solo un frammento, quindi i BTC sono andati persi per sempre 



Se notate si vede una piccola parte della rondella, ora sappiamo che in ambiente acido non resiste, bene così.

Risultato del test: Se volete tenere il vostro seed al sicuro lontano dalle persone non lo immergete in acido solforico 

Vi ho fatto aspettare un pò per il risultato ma stavo tranquillo del fatto che per noi bitcoiner 2 anni sono praticamente niente 

[LoyceV]

Sorry guys if I wrote in Italian, but I posted first in the Italian section and I'm copy pasting. Post the result of the experiment in water and sulfuric acid of the washers started 2 years ago.

That's not really useful, you could probably just find the expected result by Googling. Exposure to sulphuric acid in different concentrations is well documented. A different acid would yield a different result, some are more corrosive than others.
I'd be much more interested to see what it looks like after being sprayed with seawater for 2 years, while being exposed to high temperatures. But again, that also isn't a realistic threat level for your seed words.

[hymperion]

Sorry guys if I wrote in Italian, but I posted first in the Italian section and I'm copy pasting. Post the result of the experiment in water and sulfuric acid of the washers started 2 years ago.

That's not really useful, you could probably just find the expected result by Googling. Exposure to sulphuric acid in different concentrations is well documented. A different acid would yield a different result, some are more corrosive than others.
I'd be much more interested to see what it looks like after being sprayed with seawater for 2 years, while being exposed to high temperatures. But again, that also isn't a realistic threat level for your seed words.

Hi, actually I added a little salt to the jar where there was only water, but obviously it's not like having sea water. I wouldn't know where to get it, I live 100km from the coast

the experiment with acid is an extreme of conditions that could happen, H2SO4 is not found around in the supermarket, but many acidic liquids such as detergents and degreasers are, yes, the effect they would have over very long periods would perhaps be the same who knows.

But I did it more out of curiosity than science.

[HideYourKeys]

Sorry guys if I wrote in Italian, but I posted first in the Italian section and I'm copy pasting. Post the result of the experiment in water and sulfuric acid of the washers started 2 years ago.

That's not really useful, you could probably just find the expected result by Googling. Exposure to sulphuric acid in different concentrations is well documented. A different acid would yield a different result, some are more corrosive than others.
I'd be much more interested to see what it looks like after being sprayed with seawater for 2 years, while being exposed to high temperatures. But again, that also isn't a realistic threat level for your seed words.

Hi, actually I added a little salt to the jar where there was only water, but obviously it's not like having sea water. I wouldn't know where to get it, I live 100km from the coast

the experiment with acid is an extreme of conditions that could happen, H2SO4 is not found around in the supermarket, but many acidic liquids such as detergents and degreasers are, yes, the effect they would have over very long periods would perhaps be the same who knows.

But I did it more out of curiosity than science.

Good to know, even though the approach with sulfuric acid is not very realistic imho 

[HideYourKeys]

There is a new sheriff in town! I have been investigating these months, and I have come up with a new solution... the BitJig M14.

Now we can engrave 44mm washers, being able to engrave each side with up to 12 words, so 24 words on a single washer, which is not big at all.

Here you have a render:



And here you have a test



As you can see you can engrave up to 24 slots per row, 3 rows with 24 slots each, so each row can get the proper amount of numbers and letters:

01AAAA02BBBB03CCCC04DDDD
05EEEE06FFFF07GGGG08HHHH
09JJJJ10KKKK11LLLL12MMMM

There is enough room to engrave the letters and numbers, and as you can see it is enough with just 4 letters per word.

I will upload it to https://hideyourkeys.io/ next week, and also will try to release a free version without the anvil.

[LoyceV]

There is enough room to engrave the letters and numbers, and as you can see it is enough with just 4 letters per word.

I'm not a big fan of omitting "error correction" by leaving out characters. Any chance you can share a picture of a washer in it's final look? I get a feeling it's going to be crowded on there.
But I do like the compact seed phrase

[HideYourKeys]

There is enough room to engrave the letters and numbers, and as you can see it is enough with just 4 letters per word.

I'm not a big fan of omitting "error correction" by leaving out characters. Any chance you can share a picture of a washer in it's final look? I get a feeling it's going to be crowded on there.
But I do like the compact seed phrase

I do not like it either... but... if it allows me to fit a whole seedphrase in one washer, it might be worth it (there are also many recovery methods that also rely only in 4 letters, even cryptotag thor which costs like 350$...)

It is indeed crowded, but not that much, quite "readable" and the letters do not overlap. I will try to upload some pictures over the weekend  

[apogio]

I do not like it either... but... if it allows me to fit a whole seedphrase in one washer, it might be worth it (there are also many recovery methods that also rely only in 4 words, even cryptotag thor which costs like 350$...)

It is indeed crowded, but not that much, quite "readable" and the letters do not overlap. I will try to upload some pictures over the weekend 

It's a good experiment and idea, so congrats on trying new things.

Just a question though.

Isn't one washer easier to lose than the previous system of multiple washers? I don't doubt that you may put the washer in a safe and leave it there for years, so it won't get lost, but in general, do you think the average user will benefit from this?

[LoyceV]

Isn't one washer easier to lose than the previous system of multiple washers?

Allow me to quote myself:

You could for instance use the washers to hang 400 kg of concrete from your ceiling. After all, you're dealing with construction material. That'll make it hard to steal.

With just one washer, and text only on one side, I'd just mount it somewhere. M14 might look a bit out of place because of the size, so don't use it to hang a painting, but for sure you won't accidentally lose it.

[Meuserna]

Allow me to quote myself:

You could for instance use the washers to hang 400 kg of concrete from your ceiling. After all, you're dealing with construction material. That'll make it hard to steal.

With just one washer, and text only on one side, I'd just mount it somewhere. M14 might look a bit out of place because of the size, so don't use it to hang a painting, but for sure you won't accidentally lose it.

You're on to something there!  If you're going to build it into something, you could use metal brackets instead of washers, and stamp the words into the side of the metal that goes into whatever you're building.

Or better yet, use door hinges.  Holy crap!  I think I love this idea.

Take the bathroom door off its hinges.  Stamp the words into the side of the hinge that goes against the door and the door frame.  Put the door back up.

Every single time you use that door, you'll smile.  If anybody asks why, just tell 'em you had a truly exquisite bowel movement.

[LoyceV]

Take the bathroom door off its hinges.  Stamp the words into the side of the hinge that goes against the door and the door frame.  Put the door back up.

If you ever move, you'll have to replace the door hinges. Even if you move your funds, you don't want to leave any evidence for the new owner of your Bitcoin addresses.

[Meuserna]

Take the bathroom door off its hinges.  Stamp the words into the side of the hinge that goes against the door and the door frame.  Put the door back up.

If you ever move, you'll have to replace the door hinges. Even if you move your funds, you don't want to leave any evidence for the new owner of your Bitcoin addresses.

You're right.  That's something to keep in mind.

I've been thinking about this stuff a lot lately because someone asked me how people in apartments can secure their seed phrase, and I realized I didn't like my answer.  My response is always "Write your seed words on paper.  Keep 'em in a safe.  Make a metal backup.  Keep it in a safe deposit box."  But many banks aren't doing safe deposit boxes anymore, and the kind of safe a typical apartment resident would have can be easily popped open or stolen and drilled.

That got me thinking about how to secure the words in metal somewhere that wouldn't be found or stolen, which led me to door hinges.  It's a big flat metal surface that can't be seen or accessed.

You'd definitely have to have some sort of reminder for yourself when you eventually move out, of course.

This stuff is fun to think about.  It's a challenge.

[apogio]

If you ever move, you'll have to replace the door hinges. Even if you move your funds, you don't want to leave any evidence for the new owner of your Bitcoin addresses.

So your idea is that you have to "hide" it by using it for an obvious purpose. Whereas, using many washers the final construction of the seed phrase may look strange and make anyone curious. Correct?

[LoyceV]

So your idea is that you have to "hide" it by using it for an obvious purpose. Whereas, using many washers the final construction of the seed phrase may look strange and make anyone curious. Correct?

Hiding in plain sight Until someone for whatever reason has to access it and finds words on washers

[apogio]

Hiding in plain sight Until someone for whatever reason has to access it and finds words on washers

It's so strange that it can really work. At least I would never go to a place and start unscrewing furniture 

[Meuserna]

Hiding in plain sight Until someone for whatever reason has to access it and finds words on washers

It's so strange that it can really work. At least I would never go to a place and start unscrewing furniture 

Yeah.  I think the bigger issue is if you get robbed and the piece of furniture is stolen by a thief who doesn't realize it has important info hidden in it.  Or worse: "Honey!  Surprise!  For your birthday, I got you a new (thing you had washers screwed into)!  I donated the old one to Goodwill."  Ruh roh.

[LoyceV]

I think the bigger issue is if you get robbed and the piece of furniture is stolen by a thief

Who steals furniture nowadays? It's big and heavy.

who doesn't realize it has important info hidden in it.

That would be the best-case scenario, it gives you time to use one of your other backups to move your funds.

Or worse: "Honey!  Surprise!  For your birthday, I got you a new (thing you had washers screwed into)!  I donated the old one to Goodwill."  Ruh roh.

Your Honey should know about your storage system

[Meuserna]

I think the bigger issue is if you get robbed and the piece of furniture is stolen by a thief

Who steals furniture nowadays? It's big and heavy.

I live in an area with a lot of younger people and some seasonals.  People get robbed.  Not all the time of course, but it happens.  There was a fake movers scam a while back that was brutal.

[HideYourKeys]

As promised, sorry for the late reply, I have been a little busy.

This is the result with only one hammer strike per letter/number. Except for number 6, I had to repeat it as you can see, after I did all the words, and I guess that the guide was not perfectly aligned.

In any case,  I'd say the results are quite good, being the first time:



I'm wondering if I could fit maybe 4 extra slots per row, not sure if it is worth it though...

I also made the perfect hiding spot (imho).

A very small magnetic capsule that can be hidden in many places, I will be making designs for fridge magnets and things like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jyCduOG2eQ&t=20s

Hidden at plain sight

[dkbit98]

As promised, sorry for the late reply, I have been a little busy.

Your project reminds on one similar idea made by 21e15.com, but I think they are using even smaller size letters.
It's amazing to see that just a single washer can be used to store all 12 or 24 seed words.
Another thing I like is the fact they are offering titanium and standard Stainless Steel washers.
Size they are using for washers is very similar to coin shape, but I think their kits are a bit more expensive.
One downside of this strategy can be for people with bad eyesight, but it's easy to use glasses or magnifying glass.


https://www.21e15.com/