Electrum+Trezor, wrong hint/info displayed

[PawGo]

Hello

I have tried to execute transaction using Electrum wallet connected with Trezor, all was as usuall, but when Trezor displayed amount for confirmation, there was something strange - instead of usuall "Amount X including fee Y", it was "Amount Y including fee Y" (bot amount were fee amounts). In Electrum transaction was looking good. The same Trezor connected to Trezor Suite displayed correct amounts.
I did not confirm transaction so I do not know what whould be the final output, but for sure, what I seen on Trezor screen was wrong.
Anyone had the same issue? Matter of Electrum or Trezor firmware?

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[n0nce]

Hello

I have tried to execute transaction using Electrum wallet connected with Trezor, all was as usuall, but when Trezor displayed amount for confirmation, there was something strange - instead of usuall "Amount X including fee Y", it was "Amount Y including fee Y" (bot amount were fee amounts). In Electrum transaction was looking good. The same Trezor connected to Trezor Suite displayed correct amounts.
I did not confirm transaction so I do not know what whould be the final output, but for sure, what I seen on Trezor screen was wrong.
Anyone had the same issue? Matter of Electrum or Trezor firmware?

If your Electrum install is legit, it is usually the most accurate software (except Sparrow - try that, too). It tells you more information about the transaction you're about to submit than something like Trezor Suite or other vendor-specific hardware wallet software.
So, in this case I'd trust whatever Electrum is saying (over Trezor Suite).

I'm not entirely sure right now what the Trezor shows on screen - I know that Foundation Passport shows you destination and change address and the corresponding amounts.
If Trezor shows the same, and it does not match with Electrum, something's seriously wrong..

Can you maybe create a new wallet (new passphrase - for privacy) and do some screenshots of the display & Electrum GUI?

[jackg]

Trezor normally displays the highest output when you're using a different wallet (I don't think it does the same on trezor suite but I'm not sure).

As in if you send:
1 btc input from me to a payee 0.1btc you'd see a confirmation of "send 0.9 btc to me" instead of "send 0.1 to the payee".

The address you'd see being paid should be listed in electrum under change addresses or be your next unused address.

[PawGo]

Aaa now I understand (I think). I was trying to do "inter-wallet" transaction. One of them (Electrum I guess) tried to be "the smart one", that's why Trezor displayed only the amount "lost" for a fee. When I tried to do transaction outside wallet, Trezor correctly displayed total amount / fee amount.
Trezor Suite in the same situation (internal transaction) made Trezor correctly display both amounts and that approach I prefer.

[dkbit98]

Anyone had the same issue? Matter of Electrum or Trezor firmware?

I never faced anything similar, but you can try asking Trezor support for help.
Do you have the latest updates for both Electrum and Trezor wallet firmware including Trezor Suite?
Trezor recently made some changes and they added coin control in their so you could try to see if this has any connection with your issue.

[Pmalek]

I'm not entirely sure right now what the Trezor shows on screen - I know that Foundation Passport shows you destination and change address and the corresponding amounts.

I remember that there was some talk about change addresses and whether or not they are shown on hardware wallets and in their native apps in the past. I know that Ledger doesn't show them when you are sending a transaction, and change addresses are not displayed in Ledger Live either. You will see the change as a new entry in your recent history, but you have no overview of your receiving or change addresses.

Trezor works the same way. When you confirm the information on screen, the change address isn't displayed to you.

[n0nce]

I'm not entirely sure right now what the Trezor shows on screen - I know that Foundation Passport shows you destination and change address and the corresponding amounts.

I remember that there was some talk about change addresses and whether or not they are shown on hardware wallets and in their native apps in the past. I know that Ledger doesn't show them when you are sending a transaction, and change addresses are not displayed in Ledger Live either. You will see the change as a new entry in your recent history, but you have no overview of your receiving or change addresses.

Trezor works the same way. When you confirm the information on screen, the change address isn't displayed to you.

Interesting; are the change addresses hidden due to being generated from a different derivation path, do they have a very large offset to the 'normal' addresses or do they have another type of actual separation? Or is it just Ledger Live keeping track and hiding them?
Managing change is a privacy feature not to be underestimated, but if it's done wrong, it can be more confusing and doing more harm than good, in my opinion.

[Pmalek]

Interesting; are the change addresses hidden due to being generated from a different derivation path, do they have a very large offset to the 'normal' addresses or do they have another type of actual separation? Or is it just Ledger Live keeping track and hiding them?

My guess is that Ledger Live intends to be as newbie-friendly as possible. It all looks and feels like you are spending crypto from an account. You don't have to worry about inputs and outputs if you don't want to. For anyone who aspires to more privacy features and greater coin control, can always use Electrum where they can also keep track of their change addresses. Ledger Live handles the change for you automatically and in the background. It goes back to the same BTC account where the original transaction was made from. You don't see the coins go into a change address but they do. If you connect your device to Electrum later, you can see the funded change addresses there. LL keeps it as simple as possible to not confuse newbies. It's far from ideal but luckily there are alternatives.   

[NeuroticFish]

Aaa now I understand (I think). I was trying to do "inter-wallet" transaction. One of them (Electrum I guess) tried to be "the smart one", that's why Trezor displayed only the amount "lost" for a fee.

If you look into Electrum at transactions history, that's what Electrum will also show in the list (as amount): only the amount spent/lost as fee.
It's not actually wrong, but I agree it can be seen as misleading.

[PawGo]

Aaa now I understand (I think). I was trying to do "inter-wallet" transaction. One of them (Electrum I guess) tried to be "the smart one", that's why Trezor displayed only the amount "lost" for a fee.

If you look into Electrum at transactions history, that's what Electrum will also show in the list (as amount): only the amount spent/lost as fee.
It's not actually wrong, but I agree it can be seen as misleading.

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And no, I do not like it, there should be at least option to show/hide real transactions. They may use "condensed" view, but at tehe end there was transation (could be displayed even as a 2 lines) where a given input/output amount was used, not just "buring" a fee.

[NeuroticFish]

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And no, I do not like it, there should be at least option to show/hide real transactions. They may use "condensed" view, but at tehe end there was transation (could be displayed even as a 2 lines) where a given input/output amount was used, not just "buring" a fee.

I do understand your point. But I do understand "their" point too.
While it's indeed a proper transaction and it should be displayed properly especially on a HW (I complained here and there that the change address and its funds are not visible when I sign a tx and I see that as a possible security issue), from wallet point of view only the fee has "left the wallet".

So, as I said, it's not wrong. And yes, I completely agree, it should be done much better, probably in Electrum and HWs too.

[n0nce]

Ledger Live handles the change for you automatically and in the background. It goes back to the same BTC account where the original transaction was made from.

How does it handle it, though? If it just goes 'back' (next HD wallet-generated address), then it will be used in the next transaction, linking them together.
That's a pretty bad way of handling it.
On the other hand, locking the change may cause a lot of confusion, too. Not sure what's the best way to handle change while providing some sort of privacy.

I've been pondering about a wallet idea that is easy to use for newbies and still gives privacy with regards to change.
The idea would be to have a built-in Lightning wallet and automatically submarine-swap any change to the LN wallet.

This has the nice side-effect that you will always have some LN balance and some on-chain balance. If one of either becomes too much or you want to move all your Lightning funds back on-chain, there could be 2 simple GUI buttons to manually initiate submarine swaps from LN to on-chain or the other way round.

By aggregating change in a LN wallet and then moving the balance back on-chain in a single transaction (or multiples, but of different values), you break the ability of blockchain analysis to link payments by amountsl.
Anyhow; I'm way off-topic - I should create a dedicated topic for this.

You don't see the coins go into a change address but they do. If you connect your device to Electrum later, you can see the funded change addresses there. LL keeps it as simple as possible to not confuse newbies. It's far from ideal but luckily there are alternatives.   

Are the change addresses labeled any differently from other addresses, though?

[Pmalek]

How does it handle it, though? If it just goes 'back' (next HD wallet-generated address), then it will be used in the next transaction, linking them together.
That's a pretty bad way of handling it.

I am not really sure how Ledger Live handles the coins that end up in change addresses and if they can easily enter circulation the next time you make a new transaction without coin control enabled. It would make more sense if LL keeps them locked in a way and focuses on spending other UTXOs that are part of that particular BTC account. It's an interesting subject and a good question for their customer service department. I will ask them and post back if I get a clear answer. I always use Electrum when I spend my coins and don't do it directly through LL and whatever system they use.

Are the change addresses labeled any differently from other addresses, though?

No, not that I am aware of. You can't differentiate change addresses from regular receiving addresses from the transaction history.