How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[slackovic]

/snip

You're wrong. Learn to admit and move on.

He will never do that. I can't understand why is he so obsessed to convince all of us that we are wrong and that we are giving away our fiat money for nothing.

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[Western_Boris]

He will never do that. I can't understand why is he so obsessed to convince all of us that we are wrong and that we are giving away our fiat money for nothing.

I have met many people like him. They just can't live with it that some people took risk by buying Bitcoin when it was super early and made millions. They are so jealous about that and feel that it is so unfair. This envy and grudge blinds now everything they see about Bitcoin and only chance for them for "not to be mistaken about Bitcoin" left anymore is if it turns out to be total scam, bubble or pyramid scheme. So now they fight with everything they got to try to make Bitcoin seen as a scam.

Just because they do not have normal peoples strength to be wrong sometimes. They somehow think that any mistake is terrible weakness and cannot be shown in anyway. Might have something to do with how they were raised by their parents.

Same thing has been seen in America with Donald Trump supporters. They make that attachment to the one thing so powerfully, that their whole world would collapse if they admit that they were wrong. So only way for them is to just go deeper and deeper into that whole they dig themself.

[Chrtycharity]

Bitcoin mining may be beneficial to the the United states energy independence.
Texas congressman Pete Sessions has made a bold declaration about the impact Bitcoin mining will have not only on his state , but on the entire united states. The Texan congressman, who is a proponent of bitcoin mining, tweeted ob Tuesday that bitcoin mining will be essential in restoring the united states energy independence. Both the admirers and detractors reacted to this statement.

[Snowshow]

If it's this easy, please do it and show how you did it. Don't worry, it's not spreading misinformation, if it's possible, it's a bug in the system and it's totally your right to exploit it. Also, if it was this easy, someone would surely simply do that (in secret or now); yet somehow I still own my own coins.

Sure it's easy. You need a line of code to attach a number to an address. To create a coin - a tangible item or intangible liability, it's not so easy. Your problem is that you lack education in economics so you think that attaching a number to an address means creating a coin. Electronic coin or cash is liability written on digital media. Cash is liability written on paper or metal media. Writing down numbers into a database is not creating coins or electronic cash, like Satoshi said in his whitepaper. That guy wrote nonsense because he is also uneducated in economics.

The thing that you don't understand and cannot understand without educating yourself about cryptography and signatures: you can't just write another number next to your address.

Yes, you can... here you go. Addr4u7jgt67. I declare that to be my address. ... Addr4u7jgt67->1,000 And now I just attached a number to that address. Of course, I can make, a protocol... "Attaching is allowable only after POW. POW is traveling around the world". Ups... now it's not easy for me to attach a number. But, whatever. It is still a number. It's not a car. It's not an application. It's not money or a coin ( a tangible item or intangible liability). It's literally a number. With or without POW, it doesn't matter. POW doesn't magically transform numbers into gold.

When you claim that we can't 'show the BTC assigned to our address', it's a strawman argument. That's because we don't prove ownership by 'showing the number of BTC and the corresponding address', but we prove ownership through a cryptographic signature that only the owner can provide.

You don't prove ownership because you don't own a digital product, liability or a tangible item. You prove that a specific number was attached to your address. That's it.

Except we can. It's called cryptographic signature.

Cryptographic signature... I have to google it... " uses public key algorithms to provide data integrity. When you sign data with a digital signature, someone else can verify the signature, and can prove that the data originated from you and was not altered after you signed it."

So, with a cryptographic signature you are just securing the numbers attached. No bit-coins, that is, someone's liabilities to redeem numbers exist in a cryptographic signature. You see, you didn't prove the existence of bit-coins.

I don't attack you, I'm stating the obvious. You are talking out of your ass and embarassing yourself with your ignorance. Harsh reality, but it is what it is. Some day you might understand; or you will end up dying in your ignorance. It's up to you though; you seem not to want to learn & understand, instead keep hammering on your arguments based on wrong, naive assumptions. I don't keep my hopes up.

I refuted literally everything you said. Even that thing about cryptographic signatures. Are you using Freudian projection? It's like you're describing yourself.

What even is buying? Transfer of ownership. I transferred ownership rights of some amount of BTC from my secret key to the seller's secret key, while he shipped me a product. That's the definition of buying.
Again, if you can 'just transfer fake numbers to someone's address', why don't you do it? You keep saying that it's so easily possible, but I'd like to see you do it.

No, no, no and no. You didn't transfer ownership rights of some amount of BTC. You transferred a number. BTC is just Satoshi's trick of renaming the concept of a number to coin. Numbers are neither coins nor there's ownership rights on them. Satoshi didn't invent numbers or patented them. He just uses them to create the illusion of the existence of coins that don't actually exist.

That's wrong though; you have no, zero valid arguments why the 'numbers should be fake'. If they were, what stops you from generating such 'fake numbers' for free, yourself?

I am not a fraudster so I don't create fake things.

Dude, we understand. You're super proud that you understood how the banking system works. However, that doesn't mean every other payment system has to work the same way..
In fact, Bitcoin is more akin to 'antique money' than 'modern money'. Where people had gold coins that they paid with. The value wasn't in something 'backing the coin', some 'liability' or some bank. It was the value of the material, simple as that. Exact same thing with Bitcoin. A gold coin also wasn't 'redeemable' in the sense that a modern day banknote is; but people willingly traded goods for it since they knew it had value. Value due to scarcity and demand, but also through heaps of expended energy to get that shit out of the ground.

If you don't understand why, read more about it and ask specific questions. But this discussion doesn't help you understand and won't convince anyone of your pathetically wrong assumptions and derived wrong claims.

I also start to think it makes no sense to waste any more of my time with you. I tend to join these types of discussions so other users are not misinformed by trolls & can read my objective explanations why the troll is wrong, however I'm confident I've proven it enough by now.

Antique money is a tangible item. Modern money is redeemable record. Satoshi's numbers are neither. Which means they are not money, coins or tokens. They're just numbers. You are free to pay a million dollars for a number to be attached to your address. But you cannot lie that that number is money, coin or bit-coin. Although you can say it's a fake-coin.

[Western_Boris]

So the numbers on your bank account that refers to banks database IS money for you but Bitcoins on my wallet that refers to Bitcoin database called blockchain somehow ARE NOT money?
Seems unlogical. Have you tried telling anyone face to face about this big revelation of yours that hundred million people, stock exchanges, banks, financial officers, whole governments etc are all wrong and only you realize that? How did anyone respond to your claims?

[mocacinno]

I didn't plan on re-visiting this thread... don't feed the troll and all... But it keeps popping up in my "Show new replies to your posts" menu, eventough i had the OP on ignore.
After seeing he was able to draw this debate on for 10 pages, i un-ignored him and read his posts, just to see why people kept biting the bait.

Now, i'm trying to imagine what is going on in OP's mind, and based on many of his posts, i wonder if his mistake is thinking bitcoin relies on a relational database, and satoshi owns said database... Think of it as an anonymous paypal where users pay money to satoshi so he edits a user's record in his database to change the "content" of an "address" (which is a record in the relational database) from (for example) 0 to 1.
This might explain why he keeps telling us that bitcoin is just a number, and that it doesn't exist... If, in his mind, the bitcoin ledger is a mere centralized relational database that can be edited by the owner (and downloaded by the community), many of the things he says make sense....

@OP: if this is the case, the only thing i can say is that the bitcoin ledger is immutable (so nobody can change the ledger), decentralised (so nobody owns is, there is no "master data" either.. It lives on thousands of nodes at the same time, without a central authority interfering) and trustless (you don't need to trust anybody to tell you how much BTC you own). Going into the technical aspects for you seems inprobable, since you don't seem to grasp basic technology, so there's no point in discussing cryptography, network setup, the merits of open source,... but it's not because you don't understand these things that they're not real...

I'm out again... back on ignore

[Snowshow]

So the numbers on your bank account that refers to banks database IS money for you but Bitcoins on my wallet that refers to Bitcoin database called blockchain somehow ARE NOT money?
Seems unlogical. Have you tried telling anyone face to face about this big revelation of yours that hundred million people, stock exchanges, banks, financial officers, whole governments etc are all wrong and only you realize that? How did anyone respond to your claims?

Numbers on bank accounts are the liability of the banking system, that is, a redeemable record. They are redeemed literally every day for labor, products and services of the borrowers at every loan repayment. Watch the video linked in the OP. Numbers in Satoshi's system are no one's liability. No institution or organization has a liability to redeem that numbers for something. Neither today, nor tomorrow. Never.

[Western_Boris]

So the numbers on your bank account that refers to banks database IS money for you but Bitcoins on my wallet that refers to Bitcoin database called blockchain somehow ARE NOT money?
Seems unlogical. Have you tried telling anyone face to face about this big revelation of yours that hundred million people, stock exchanges, banks, financial officers, whole governments etc are all wrong and only you realize that? How did anyone respond to your claims?

Numbers on bank accounts are the liability of the banking system, that is, a redeemable record. They are redeemed literally every day for labor, products and services of the borrowers at every loan repayment. Watch the video linked in the OP. Numbers in Satoshi's system are no one's liability. No institution or organization has a liability to redeem that numbers for something. Neither today, not tomorrow. Never.

So are Bitcoins too.

[Snowshow]

So the numbers on your bank account that refers to banks database IS money for you but Bitcoins on my wallet that refers to Bitcoin database called blockchain somehow ARE NOT money?
Seems unlogical. Have you tried telling anyone face to face about this big revelation of yours that hundred million people, stock exchanges, banks, financial officers, whole governments etc are all wrong and only you realize that? How did anyone respond to your claims?

Numbers on bank accounts are the liability of the banking system, that is, a redeemable record. They are redeemed literally every day for labor, products and services of the borrowers at every loan repayment. Watch the video linked in the OP. Numbers in Satoshi's system are no one's liability. No institution or organization has a liability to redeem that numbers for something. Neither today, not tomorrow. Never.

So are Bitcoins too.

So, who has the written liability to redeem Satoshi's numbers next to your address and what is the maturity?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Now, i'm trying to imagine what is going on in OP's mind, and based on many of his posts, i wonder if his mistake is thinking bitcoin relies on a relational database, and satoshi owns said database...

That's what I also thought at first, but it turns out it's not the case. OP has probably understood that the ledger is decentralized and that you can't change the records by your own will, although I don't hold my breath. What they say, is that bitcoins, as units, don't represent anything and that's why the system is meaningless. It has been repeatedly told them that just because it's a unit-based system only, it doesn't mean it can't be seen as money.

No institution or organization has a liability to redeem that numbers for something. Neither today, nor tomorrow. Never.

You're the one who keeps spitting the nonsense. I'm willing to exchange food for bitcoins, therefore you can redeem it to me. It's redeemable, Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this guy.

[Western_Boris]

Bitcoin blockchain is the same as banks vault or database. When you want to spend your Bitcoins, the system check from the database/vault/blockchain if you own enough for that transaction and as you do, you are able to make the transaction. Same thing when you transfer euros in digital form from your bank account to my bank account, transaction just gets written in the database. Nothing else needs to move. Just database gets written. Same thing happens with Bitcoin. New amounts of yours and mine just gets written into the blockchain.

The euros and dollars are not tied to gold anymore so there is nothing valuable what the bank owns you. Only digital bits or some paper representing those same digital bits but in paper. That paper and digital bits are worthless. UNLESS they are written in some database / blockchain which people DO appreciate as a currency.

So, it does not matter if it is digital euros, paper money or bitcoin. It has a value if we the people value it as a currency. If we don't value it as a currency, then it is worthless.

You do not value bitcoin so it is worthless to you. Hundred million people, companies, stock exchanges and ETFs etc do value bitcoin as a currency. And you can't make us decide otherway even if you tried for 100 years. Because in our more educated opinion than yours, the Bitcoin is better currency than euros or dollars. You saying you don't believe it does not matter to anyone.

[Snowshow]

You're the one who keeps spitting the nonsense. I'm willing to exchange food for bitcoins, therefore you can redeem it to me. It's redeemable, Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this guy.

No, you cannot redeem Satoshi's numbers. You can just transfer them to your address. Redeeming means destroying. When you redeem a gift card it no longer exists. When you redeem dollars, the liability is decreased in the banking system, dollars are literally destroyed. You, neither have written liability to destroy Satoshi's numbers, nor you would destroy them after giving someone goods, services or labour. So, you're talking stupidity again.

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin blockchain is the same as banks vault or database. When you want to spend your Bitcoins, the system check from the database/vault/blockchain if you own enough for that transaction and as you do, you are able to make the transaction. Same thing when you transfer euros in digital form from your bank account to my bank account, transaction just gets written in the database. Nothing else needs to move. Just database gets written. Same thing happens with Bitcoin. New amounts of yours and mine just gets written into the blockchain.

The euros and dollars are not tied to gold anymore so there is nothing valuable what the bank owns you. Only digital bits or some paper representing those same digital bits but in paper. That paper and digital bits are worthless. UNLESS they are written in some database / blockchain which people DO appreciate as a currency.

So, it does not matter if it is digital euros, paper money or bitcoin. It has a value if we the people value it as a currency. If we don't value it as a currency, then it is worthless.

You do not value bitcoin so it is worthless to you. Hundred million people, companies, stock exchanges and ETFs etc do value bitcoin as a currency. And you can't make us decide otherway even if you tried for 100 years. Because in our more educated opinion than yours, the Bitcoin is better currency than euros or dollars. You saying you don't believe it does not matter to anyone.

I am not interested in your philosophy about Satoshi's numbers. You said these numbers are redeemable. Now, back up your claim. Who has the written liability to redeem that numbers and what's the maturity?

[Western_Boris]

I am not interested in your philosophy about Satoshi's numbers. You said these numbers are redeemable. Now, back up your claim. Who has the written liability to redeem that numbers and what's the maturity?

The guy who claims something people use for payment everyday does not exist at all, is not interested in "philosophy".

Are you for real? Have you been laughed so hard that only place to talk shit left for you is this forum?

Every bitcoin exists in the blockchain. You cannot take it out as paper money from there. You can only transfer the ownership of those digital coins to some other people. So there is no need to destroy anything.

[n0nce]

If it's this easy, please do it and show how you did it. Don't worry, it's not spreading misinformation, if it's possible, it's a bug in the system and it's totally your right to exploit it. Also, if it was this easy, someone would surely simply do that (in secret or now); yet somehow I still own my own coins.

Sure it's easy. You need a line of code to attach a number to an address.

Why don't you then write a line of code and attach 100BTC to the address bc1qxp6y0reenlxh6sn825fmc8pqyfvmrdk7ed6flj?
Please, set the number 100BTC next to that address (selected a valid address at random), so that it's visible on https://mempool.space/address/bc1qxp6y0reenlxh6sn825fmc8pqyfvmrdk7ed6flj and on my own node as well as any other block explorer. Then it would be proven that BTC isn't real and whatever else you claim.

Your problem is that you lack education in economics so you think that attaching a number to an address means creating a coin.

It's not economics; you haven't understood how Bitcoin works, how mining and transactions work.

Electronic coin or cash is liability written on digital media. Cash is liability written on paper or metal media. Writing down numbers into a database is not creating coins or electronic cash, like Satoshi said in his whitepaper. That guy wrote nonsense because he is also uneducated in economics.

That's wrong though. It doesn't have anything to do with economics; as I said, compare to gold. You need to mine it; after that, it has some base value. This value isn't a liability, the value is within the metal itself, because of the energy expended to get it out of the earth and the scarcity of it. But it's not pointing to some liability or debt in some bank. Or do you believe this is wrong and gold only has value because the bank attaches a value to a certain amount of gold?

The thing that you don't understand and cannot understand without educating yourself about cryptography and signatures: you can't just write another number next to your address.

Yes, you can... here you go. Addr4u7jgt67. I declare that to be my address. ... Addr4u7jgt67->1,000 And now I just attached a number to that address.

Except nobody accepts it because it's not created according to the Bitcoin protocol. Same reason why altcoins aren't worth as much as Bitcoins.
You need to show me https://mempool.space/address/[your addr] and somehow get their (and all other) nodes to accept this.

But, whatever. It is still a number. It's not a car. It's not an application. It's not money or a coin ( a tangible item or intangible liability). It's literally a number. With or without POW, it doesn't matter. POW doesn't magically transform numbers into gold.

It does transform numbers into gold. That's like saying 'mining gold doesn't make this metal valuable, it's just a rando material' (might as well make wedding rings out of clay or something, right).

When you claim that we can't 'show the BTC assigned to our address', it's a strawman argument. That's because we don't prove ownership by 'showing the number of BTC and the corresponding address', but we prove ownership through a cryptographic signature that only the owner can provide.

You don't prove ownership because you don't own a digital product, liability or a tangible item. You prove that a specific number was attached to your address. That's it.

Almost! You prove that you are able to spend coins that everyone in the world agrees on, are attached to your address. The ability to spend this coin is the ownership of it.  Like being able to spend a gold coin because you hold it in your hands. It has no value if you can't spend it (e.g. if you lost it or can't access it), right.

Except we can. It's called cryptographic signature.

Cryptographic signature... I have to google it..

Seriously. If you didn't know what a cryptographic signature was, before creating this topic, PLEASE learn first. You proved time and time again that you have no idea. Sure, you can quickly google it, but real understanding takes longer than that. You're incredibly in the wrong here and there's no way for us to convince otherwise if you lack all of the basics, honestly. Do you seriously believe you can discuss this topic without any knowledge (newsflash: you really don't have any knowledge about cryptocurrencies, none at all) about the very thing you are criticizing?

I am not a fraudster so I don't create fake things.

Fucking weak excuse. You could give it away afterwards or burn it (I know - you have no idea about burning coins, either, since you are CLUELESS).

Antique money is a tangible item. Modern money is redeemable record. Satoshi's numbers are neither. Which means they are not money, coins or tokens. They're just numbers. You are free to pay a million dollars for a number to be attached to your address. But you cannot lie that that number is money, coin or bit-coin. Although you can say it's a fake-coin.

If your definition of money doesn't fit Bitcoin, so be it. But the point stands that you can't just write some number next to an address (creating coins out of thin air). Since people pay lots of money to generate these coins and have them accepted by everyone running nodes, as well as the buyers of these coins, they do have a value.

But this is my last post in this topic. It's a waste of time, as I said.
Please stop wasting your own time as well; if you're not interested in Bitcoin, maybe get a hobby; if you still are, seriously educate yourself first and then we can discuss about what you didn't understand.
Coming into a forum of people that are highly educated and experienced in this field and telling them that all is a 'great lie' without having any idea about any of even the basics of this, is not a good idea. In general.
So long! *unwatch*

[dark1234]

everyone is free to argue about something and of course it's not just by blaming something that has been real for many people without a solid basis and the op himself wants to do a proof .... which should be done after careful scientific research as evidence of an educated person and if that opinion is true make a responsible paper or media and can be discussed together so as not to fool and argue with others. same round I myself am still stupid in the block chain world but I know many smart and educated people join in it

[BlackHatCoiner]

No, you cannot redeem Satoshi's numbers. You can just transfer them to your address.

And yet, that's what "redeem" means...

gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.

Also stop calling it "Satoshi's system"; it's cringe. It's our system, those are the rules WE have decided to follow, it's a currency WE verify, WE are the central banks of it. (Precisely, the last one describes the miners, but we're free to start mining)

Satoshi or any other authorities have no power here.

Who has the written liability to redeem that numbers and what's the maturity?

No one deals with liabilities, by default, in our system and that's a feature. We don't have to use debt in such system, unless one wants to borrow money. When you sign a Bitcoin transaction, there's no one promising coins, owing coins etc., it's a settled transaction that cannot be reversed. Just like when you hand out cash.

[Snowshow]

I am not interested in your philosophy about Satoshi's numbers. You said these numbers are redeemable. Now, back up your claim. Who has the written liability to redeem that numbers and what's the maturity?

The guy who claims something people use for payment everyday does not exist at all, is not interested in "philosophy".

Are you for real? Have you been laughed so hard that only place to talk shit left for you is this forum?

Every bitcoin exists in the blockchain. You cannot take it out as paper money from there. You can only transfer the ownership of those digital coins to some other people. So there is no need to destroy anything.

So, you're not able to back up your claim. I knew that already. I am just showing that none of you have some rational arguments. You're all just repeating the same nonsense.

No, you cannot redeem Satoshi's numbers. You can just transfer them to your address.

And yet, that's what "redeem" means...

gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.

Also stop calling it "Satoshi's system"; it's cringe. It's our system, those are the rules WE have decided to follow, it's a currency WE verify, WE are the central banks of it. (Precisely, the last one describes the miners, but we're free to start mining)

Satoshi or any other authorities have no power here.

Who has the written liability to redeem that numbers and what's the maturity?

No one deals with liabilities, by default, in our system and that's a feature. We don't have to use debt in such system, unless one wants to borrow money. When you sign a Bitcoin transaction, there's no one promising coins, owing coins etc., it's a settled transaction that cannot be reversed. Just like when you hand out cash.

In finance, redemption describes the repayment of a fixed-income security—such as a Treasury note, certificate of deposit, or bond—on or before its maturity date.

You have literally ignored every possible definition of a financial or economic term in this discussion.All that just to claim that Satoshi's numbers are something they are not. In the same sentence you say that Satoshi's numbers are redeemable, which means someone has liability, and then you say that in Satoshi's system there are no liabilities. For you, it doesn't matter what is reality or truth. You're twisting everything just to fit your narrative. I bet that if Satoshi had written in whitepaper that his system creates airplanes you would have claim that numbers are capable of flying. That what you're doing is a textbook definition of a delusion.

[nullama]

~snip~

In finance, redemption describes the repayment of a fixed-income security—such as a Treasury note, certificate of deposit, or bond—on or before its maturity date.

You have literally ignored every possible definition of a financial or economic term in this discussion.All that just to claim that Satoshi's numbers are something they are not. In the same sentence you say that Satoshi's numbers are redeemable, which means someone has liability, and then you say that in Satoshi's system there are no liabilities. For you, it doesn't matter what is reality or truth. You're twisting everything just to fit your narrative. I bet that if Satoshi had written in whitepaper that his system creates airplanes you would have claim that numbers are capable of flying. That what you're doing is a textbook definition of a delusion.

I think we will never get to a consensus here because OP's thinking is based on Keynesian economics, whereas Bitcoin follows Austrian economics.

[Snowshow]

If your definition of money doesn't fit Bitcoin, so be it. But the point stands that you can't just write some number next to an address (creating coins out of thin air). Since people pay lots of money to generate these coins and have them accepted by everyone running nodes, as well as the buyers of these coins, they do have a value.

But this is my last post in this topic. It's a waste of time, as I said.
Please stop wasting your own time as well; if you're not interested in Bitcoin, maybe get a hobby; if you still are, seriously educate yourself first and then we can discuss about what you didn't understand.
Coming into a forum of people that are highly educated and experienced in this field and telling them that all is a 'great lie' without having any idea about any of even the basics of this, is not a good idea. In general.
So long! *unwatch*

No, I have no definition of money. I am stating the obvious - money is something. And then I gave the examples of something: liability (to redeem - token, fiat money, bond, gift card...), coin (tangible item like gold). I am also stating the obvious: we use numbers to express the quantity of something. Obviously, people must comunicate somehow to inform each other what and how many units of something is owned or transferred. For communication, numbers and letters are used. Numbers for informing on quantity of things, and letters to inform on name of things.

Bitcoin on the other hand doesn't exist. Something that doesn't exist cannot be money. It cannot be a digital product, or coin, token, commodity, whatever. Nothing cannot have features to be able to fit the definition of a word like "coin". And in the Satoshi's system there's nothing that the holders of the addresses own. Numbers attached to their addresses just create the illusion that a specific quantity of something - digital coins called Bitcoins, exist. The system simply attaches, for e.g. "5" to an address, and then it is claimed that the address holder owns 5 units of something - a thing called bitcoin. But the holder has nothing in their possession. Neither digital nor tangible. The number is simply fake. It's a lie. The whole system is a giant utopia where participants think they own something, while in reality only fake numbers are attached to their addresses.

What is stunning is how people in this discussion twist reality and definitions to be able to claim that nothing is something. I literally never experienced such a bizarre behavior in my life. Claiming that entering into this scheme is redeeming the non-existent item is an example of such behavior. Another example is frantically repeating the name Bitcoin as if people were actually holding a coin in their own hands. The most common behavior is hiding behind cryptographic management of numbers to create the illusion that something valuable is behind the numbers. Anyhow, this is an interesting psychological experiment to watch.