How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

It seems you didn't understand the question. You're responding by talking about Bitcoin as an "asset", a "currency" - which is a type of asset. You're also using the phrase "investing in Bitcoin", or "value of Bitcoin". So, I am going to ask a question in a different way. An asset is a resource from which people can benefit. The word "investing" means investing into something from which people can benefit. While the word "value", obviously, also means something from which people can benefit. Now, how can a "thing" which exists in the bitcoin system, whatever that "thing" is, be either an asset, or have value, if not a single human being on Earth, after entering that system, is able to benefit. But instead, someone from the outside of the system must bring either goods/services/labor - which benefit people through consumption, or, someone has to bring in the bank deposits or banknots which grant access to borrower's goods/services/labor. Namely, these borrowers are forced by the banks (via collateral) to trade their goods/services/labor for the deposits and banknotes to be able to settle the debt created when they were granted loans. So, how can "something" in the bitcoin system be called an asset or value, if not a single human being who enters that system is able to benefit inside that system. And how then, is the usage of words "asset" and "value", when referring to a "thing" inside the bitcoin system, not a language manipulation that has purpose of tricking people into the system in which they cannot benefit, and scam them out of goods, services, labour or bank deposits and banknotes from which they can benefit - as explained above?

For sure, even though it seems to me that I have adequately and sufficiently responded to your various points, it could well be that we are just talking past one another.

And it could be the case that you have sufficiently and adequately outlined a deep, profound and meaningful insight regarding a value appreciation flaw in the whole bitcoin system. .. so in that regard, you are smart about the whole matter of getting in and out of bitcoin in ways that I do not sufficiently understand - especially if we might be excluding the participation of aliens who are not able to get their value into the bitcoin system.

I already mentioned that it seems to me that even no coiners may well be able to benefit from the existence of a bitcoin, system, but you seem to want to talk about ways to get value into bitcoin and out of bitcoin, and I hardly even understand what other points I can attempt to flesh out that is going to help you or anyone else in this regard.

Given my own time constraints and limitations on patience, I did my best to outline various considerations that I believe to be relevant to the topic, and you still insist that I am missing something in such a way that you believe that it might be fruitful for us to continue to bat around ideas... but I must bow out, because all I am likely to do is repeat ideas that I already said.. so in that regard, I will just stand behind the points that I have already made.. and if you have any questions or concerns about points that I have made, then feel free to shoot away.. otherwise, I doubt that anything further I am going to say will be helpful in dealing with the level of abstraction (that I apparently do not sufficiently understand) that you would like to pursue in terms of your ongoing bitcoin existentialism explorations.. to the extent that they are even genuine concerns rather than merely abstract ideas that have no real world application.

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[Stalker22]

~
So, how can "something" in the bitcoin system be called an asset or value, if not a single human being who enters that system is able to benefit inside that system.

In the same way as someone can benefit from mutual funds, index funds or exchange-traded funds.

Basically, anything that has some economic value and can be traded is considered an asset. Even Pokemon cards can be considered an asset... Do you see any personal benefit in Pokemon cards? But unlike Pokemon cards, Bitcoin actually has a real-life function (transfer of value without a middle man or a banking system) so there's a lot more going on than just looking pretty.

[Snowshow]

IF you want to educate yourself before making claims about currency I advise you to read here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp

Currency is a medium of exchange for goods and services.

Meaning there is no benefit in a currency before you exchange it meaning you get new people in the system.

A key characteristic of modern money is that it is uniformly worthless in itself.

It is the same for Bitcoin, Dollar, Euro etc.

The exchange rate is the current value of any currency in exchange for another currency.

Meaning the value of bitcoin is quite high even if you do not believe it. The value is derived from the amount of people that want to enter the system.

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Modern money is still something that benefits people. Those who define modern money as intrinsically worthless, are clueless of what money is. Because, it is the evidence of money what is intrinsically worthless. Evidence of money is data about quantity and name. Those are written digitally or on paper as a dozen of alphanumeric symbols - which are indeed intrinsically worthless. Modern money is for e.g. debt. Evidence of that debt are alphanumeric symbols written on bank deposit accounts or banknots. These are intrinsically worthless. But debt itself is valuable because it provides benefit to people when it is paid, as I have shown many times in this topic.

Alphanumeric symbols in the bitcoin system create the illusion of money. They are supposed to trick people into believing that there's something valuable in the system. But of course, that's not the case. That's why not a single human being on this planet is able to benefit within the bitcoin system. This system is simply a means to trick people out of their valuable things. An of course, as such, it is beneficial to scammers. Or to those that were tricked into the system and are now desperate to run out of it.

[hZti]

IF you want to educate yourself before making claims about currency I advise you to read here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp

Currency is a medium of exchange for goods and services.

Meaning there is no benefit in a currency before you exchange it meaning you get new people in the system.

A key characteristic of modern money is that it is uniformly worthless in itself.

It is the same for Bitcoin, Dollar, Euro etc.

The exchange rate is the current value of any currency in exchange for another currency.

Meaning the value of bitcoin is quite high even if you do not believe it. The value is derived from the amount of people that want to enter the system.

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Modern money is still something that benefits people. Those who define modern money as intrinsically worthless, are clueless of what money is. Because, it is the evidence of money what is intrinsically worthless. Evidence of money is data about quantity and name. Those are written digitally or on paper as a dozen of alphanumeric symbols - which are indeed intrinsically worthless. Modern money is for e.g. debt. Evidence of that debt are alphanumeric symbols written on bank deposit accounts or banknots. These are intrinsically worthless. But debt itself is valuable because it provides benefit to people when it is paid, as I have shown many times in this topic.

Alphanumeric symbols in the bitcoin system create the illusion of money. They are supposed to trick people into believing that there's something valuable in the system. But of course, that's not the case. That's why not a single human being on this planet is able to benefit within the bitcoin system. This system is simply a means to trick people out of their valuable things. An of course as such, it is beneficial to scammers. Or to those that were tricked into the system and are now desperate to run out of it.

If you think you are smarter than everyone else then I can't help you. These are official definitions and you can fight them as you want, it will still not change that you are wrong.

[Stalker22]

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

[Snowshow]

IF you want to educate yourself before making claims about currency I advise you to read here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp

Currency is a medium of exchange for goods and services.

Meaning there is no benefit in a currency before you exchange it meaning you get new people in the system.

A key characteristic of modern money is that it is uniformly worthless in itself.

It is the same for Bitcoin, Dollar, Euro etc.

The exchange rate is the current value of any currency in exchange for another currency.

Meaning the value of bitcoin is quite high even if you do not believe it. The value is derived from the amount of people that want to enter the system.

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Modern money is still something that benefits people. Those who define modern money as intrinsically worthless, are clueless of what money is. Because, it is the evidence of money what is intrinsically worthless. Evidence of money is data about quantity and name. Those are written digitally or on paper as a dozen of alphanumeric symbols - which are indeed intrinsically worthless. Modern money is for e.g. debt. Evidence of that debt are alphanumeric symbols written on bank deposit accounts or banknots. These are intrinsically worthless. But debt itself is valuable because it provides benefit to people when it is paid, as I have shown many times in this topic.

Alphanumeric symbols in the bitcoin system create the illusion of money. They are supposed to trick people into believing that there's something valuable in the system. But of course, that's not the case. That's why not a single human being on this planet is able to benefit within the bitcoin system. This system is simply a means to trick people out of their valuable things. An of course as such, it is beneficial to scammers. Or to those that were tricked into the system and are now desperate to run out of it.

If you think you are smarter than everyone else then I can't help you. These are official definitions and you can fight them as you want, it will still not change that you are wrong.

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

Here we go again. Economic resources in the form of good, services and labor is what benefits people. Bank deposits/banknots that grant access to borrower's goods, services and labor is what benefits people. Capital also benefits people. Real estate benefit people. Nothing of the sort exist in the bitcoin system. That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

One of the great things here is that no one has to prove anything to anybody else.

If we were trying to change some kind of practice or procedure or to decide who is correct about a dispute, then there would be burdens of proof for the person trying to make the change or to convince that a change is necessary or even to show which side is correct within a dispute.

But here we do not have that... there is no need for a resolution.

You seem to be trying to argue why bitcoin is not valuable relative to other systems (such as existing fiat systems that you seem to believe are valuable or even more valuable), and you might be correct or you might not be, and in the end, it does not matter too much because you can make your choices about how you want to go forward in the world - how you want to spend your time and your money and whether or not you want to invest in bitcoin as compared with investing in other assets.

To the extent that you are being genuine, it is difficult to believe that you are, because you are claiming to have some kind of unique and educated perspective, but ONLY you seem to agree with your own points to the extent that you have anything that means anything.

So, sure it is possible that you might be the ONLY one that is correct, but it seems that the overwhelming number of folks who have been studying bitcoin have come to recognize and appreciate value within the bitcoin system that causes some gravitation of further value into bitcoin, and so with the passage of time, it seems that more and more people are going to continue value bitcoin, and they might not even know why they are valuing bitcoin except for the fact that other people are valuing bitcoin.. so in that regard, it seems that Gresham's law principles are going to cause more and more value to gravitate into bitcoin - especially since bitcoin seems to be the soundest of monies that have ever been created - so the various inefficiencies of other monies will likely continue to flow into bitcoin, and the monetization of other goods will likely continue to gravitate into bitcoin.

Even though much of the monetary value is likely to continue to flow into bitcoin and it could take 20, 50, 100 or more years for a lot of the current inefficient monetizations to flow into bitcoin, there are still going to be ways that assets, property, goods and services are going to retain some value that is not monetary value but other ways that they are valued.... such as your earlier apple example.  I cannot eat a bitcoin, so if I want an apple, I am going to need to exchange something for that apple, which may well end up being bitcoin - if I end up having nothing else that I am able to exchange for it and in a world in which all of the monetary systems have flowed into bitcoin.

In the end, you can choose where to hold your value Snowshow, and surely each of our choices have the potential to have quite differing consequences, and I am not even saying that you are going to be wrong if you choose to remain a no coiner.. even if 20 years down the road, you might realize that you could have done better by having had chosen to take a more aggressive approach towards accumulating bitcoin, which I already mentioned is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition.. and anywhere between 1% and 25% allocation would be a good place to start if you are still currently on zero.. the rest of your balancing of individual considerations should also be accounted, and you are not interested in those kinds of matters anyhow, and so why should I repeat things that I already mentioned?

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

Here we go again. Economic resources in the form of good, services and labor is what benefits people. Bank deposits/banknots that grant access to borrower's goods, services and labor is what benefits people. Capital also benefits people. Real estate benefit people. Nothing of the sort exist in the bitcoin system.

You are correct that there are a variety of ways that people get benefits, and if bitcoin has value (which we seem to have establish that it does and that the value of bitcoin has grown through the years), then bitcoin can be exchanged for those other various goods and services that you mentioned above.  People can choose how much bitcoin to exchange, and if they do not value bitcoin, then another medium of exchange will need to be found, so surely bitcoin is not going to work in every transaction - and especially bitcoin is not going to work if the counter party does not recognize it as valuable...

It seems to me that the longer bitcoin has been around, the more places and people and institutions that seem to recognize bitcoin as having value so may well be agreeable to entering into a direct exchange; however, there may well be some cases in which I want to buy that piece of property, and they only recognize dollars as valuable, so then I have to exchange my bitcoin for dollars before I am going to be able to acquire that piece of property.

That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

Well.. if bitcoin loses its value, then I will need more of it to be able to buy any of the goods and services that I want to purchase with it.  You are proclaiming that some shenanigans are going on that appear to be like a pyramid scheme going on in bitcoin, which you seem to not know what the fuck you are talking about.. but of course, you can believe what you like.  In any event, history seems to show us that the longer that you have been into bitcoin, the more likely that bitcoin is either going to have a similar or a higher relative value than it had earlier... so of course, if you have not been into bitcoin long enough then you might not have been able to realize an appreciation of the value of your bitcoin, and your forum registration is ONLY two months, so it could be possible that you have not been in bitcoin for long enough..

So maybe we have to go back to a longer example, such as myself.  Let's say hypothetically if between 2013 and 2017, I ended up acquiring a total 10 bitcoin, and it cost me around $10k to accumulate those 10 BTC.. so that is a cost of $1k per BTC.

Right now, I am not in any kind of desperate state regarding the BTC price because my profits are quite extensive (in the area of 30x on average if we are considering the current price of $30k per BTC).  so I have options with those 10 BTC in terms of how to spend them, and if some folks do not want to accept my BTC, then I could incur some extra costs in order to be able to get dollars or whatever it is that they would like to exchange with me for me to get what I want to get with those 10 BTC or some fraction of a BTC.. for example, if I want to spend 0.0001 BTC on a cup of coffee.. or an apple.

Another hypothetical person might not have gotten into bitcoin until the 2018 to 2020 time period, and that person might have ended up ONLY being able to acquire around 1 BTC for the similar amount of $10k investment, so that person ends up having a $10k per BTC cost per BTC.. and currently with our BTC prices at $30k, such an investor might not really be in the mood to spend  his/her bitcoin yet because s/he would just like to continue to stack sats and to keep building his/her BTC stash because s/he believes bitcoin will continue to go up in price, and maybe through the next 5 to 10 years s/he might be able to acquire another 0.2 BTC or maybe another 0.5 BTC depending on how much s/he is able to continue to invest into BTC with the passage of time and how much the BTC prices change during that ongoing investment period - whether the BTC prices go up or not (and many of us here seem to presume that on a longer timeframe BTC prices continue to have decently strongly likely chances to continue to go up with the passage of time, even though in the shorter time periods, it might not be so clear about how much BTC prices might go up or down).

Of course, you Snowshow sound as if you have been possibly studying bitcoin for longer than your forum registration date (which is only two months ago), but I can still appreciate how you may well feel confused or even not appreciating bitcoin's price going up with the passage of time if you have gotten into bitcoin in the past 2 years, it is possible that your BTC holdings could be under water at the moment. 

Surely, bitcoin has already had a history of showing that it can take a decent amount of time to appreciate in value, and I have many times mentioned in the forum that I had portions of my bitcoin (the ones purchased at $1.2k) that were under water for nearly 3.5 years from November 2013 to March 2017 before they started to come above water, and surely part of the saving grace could be ongoing buying that ends up bringing down the average price per BTC and maybe even raising the cost per BTC with other mistakes that are made along the way, too.  And, so maybe part of the point is that it can take a while for investment conviction to pay off and even to start to feel either decently large BTC compounding value or just have been able to accumulate enough with the passage of time and to have had enough time pass that the price has actually risen.. again getting back to timeline considerations which is also ONLY just one of the factors to consider regarding both getting into bitcoin and how much and how to allocate into it.

You can continue to speculate that bitcoin has no value and you can continue to not buy any bitcoin, or you can get the fuck started with some level of investment.  I would imagine that in 5-10 years, history is not going to look kindly upon folks who knew about bitcoin in these times, and failed/refused to at least not take some kind of initial meaningful stake within their means rather than just ongoingly blinding themselves (and naysaying) to what seems to actually be happening in the world and that bitcoin should at least serve as some kind of hedge to other current systems, even if you may well continue to retain some skepticisms in regards to how bitcoin is retaining its value relative to other possible investments that you could make in these here seemingly ongoing trying times.

[Stalker22]

That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

However, that is only your opinion; and there is no evidence to support your claims. Repeating the same statements over and over does not make them true.
There is no need for me to "sell a story" or to scam anyone to get in or out of the system. The Bitcoin system is there, and it has been there for more than 13 years. It is available to everyone, and it works. People are not forced to participate in the system. That is the beauty of decentralized currency, you can do whatever you want and no one can stop you. Those are the facts. Your claims are mere fantasies, and reality denies them. You can either accept reality or stay in your fantasyland. The choice is yours.

[dkbit98]

Everyone please STOP feeding the troll and STOP replying to his messages!
Snowshow is just one more liar with lot of free time, and he is doing ban evasion Antithesis = Antikvark = Fxsurfer (banned).
He doesn't know anything about Bitcoin or economy, and he imagines to be some kind of protector from evil myth, while supporting people like Warren Buffett.
If he can say that Bitcoin is a myth, than I can say that Snowshow is also a myth, something like unicorns.

A person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

Snowshow is a Myth and not Real.

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

One of the great things here is that no one has to prove anything to anybody else.

If we were trying to change some kind of practice or procedure or to decide who is correct about a dispute, then there would be burdens of proof for the person trying to make the change or to convince that a change is necessary or even to show which side is correct within a dispute.

But here we do not have that... there is no need for a resolution.

You seem to be trying to argue why bitcoin is not valuable relative to other systems (such as existing fiat systems that you seem to believe are valuable or even more valuable), and you might be correct or you might not be, and in the end, it does not matter too much because you can make your choices about how you want to go forward in the world - how you want to spend your time and your money and whether or not you want to invest in bitcoin as compared with investing in other assets.

To the extent that you are being genuine, it is difficult to believe that you are, because you are claiming to have some kind of unique and educated perspective, but ONLY you seem to agree with your own points to the extent that you have anything that means anything.

So, sure it is possible that you might be the ONLY one that is correct, but it seems that the overwhelming number of folks who have been studying bitcoin have come to recognize and appreciate value within the bitcoin system that causes some gravitation of further value into bitcoin, and so with the passage of time, it seems that more and more people are going to continue value bitcoin, and they might not even know why they are valuing bitcoin except for the fact that other people are valuing bitcoin.. so in that regard, it seems that Gresham's law principles are going to cause more and more value to gravitate into bitcoin - especially since bitcoin seems to be the soundest of monies that have ever been created - so the various inefficiencies of other monies will likely continue to flow into bitcoin, and the monetization of other goods will likely continue to gravitate into bitcoin.

Even though much of the monetary value is likely to continue to flow into bitcoin and it could take 20, 50, 100 or more years for a lot of the current inefficient monetizations to flow into bitcoin, there are still going to be ways that assets, property, goods and services are going to retain some value that is not monetary value but other ways that they are valued.... such as your earlier apple example.  I cannot eat a bitcoin, so if I want an apple, I am going to need to exchange something for that apple, which may well end up being bitcoin - if I end up having nothing else that I am able to exchange for it and in a world in which all of the monetary systems have flowed into bitcoin.

In the end, you can choose where to hold your value Snowshow, and surely each of our choices have the potential to have quite differing consequences, and I am not even saying that you are going to be wrong if you choose to remain a no coiner.. even if 20 years down the road, you might realize that you could have done better by having had chosen to take a more aggressive approach towards accumulating bitcoin, which I already mentioned is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition.. and anywhere between 1% and 25% allocation would be a good place to start if you are still currently on zero.. the rest of your balancing of individual considerations should also be accounted, and you are not interested in those kinds of matters anyhow, and so why should I repeat things that I already mentioned?

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

Here we go again. Economic resources in the form of good, services and labor is what benefits people. Bank deposits/banknots that grant access to borrower's goods, services and labor is what benefits people. Capital also benefits people. Real estate benefit people. Nothing of the sort exist in the bitcoin system.

You are correct that there are a variety of ways that people get benefits, and if bitcoin has value (which we seem to have establish that it does and that the value of bitcoin has grown through the years), then bitcoin can be exchanged for those other various goods and services that you mentioned above.  People can choose how much bitcoin to exchange, and if they do not value bitcoin, then another medium of exchange will need to be found, so surely bitcoin is not going to work in every transaction - and especially bitcoin is not going to work if the counter party does not recognize it as valuable...

It seems to me that the longer bitcoin has been around, the more places and people and institutions that seem to recognize bitcoin as having value so may well be agreeable to entering into a direct exchange; however, there may well be some cases in which I want to buy that piece of property, and they only recognize dollars as valuable, so then I have to exchange my bitcoin for dollars before I am going to be able to acquire that piece of property.

That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

Well.. if bitcoin loses its value, then I will need more of it to be able to buy any of the goods and services that I want to purchase with it.  You are proclaiming that some shenanigans are going on that appear to be like a pyramid scheme going on in bitcoin, which you seem to not know what the fuck you are talking about.. but of course, you can believe what you like.  In any event, history seems to show us that the longer that you have been into bitcoin, the more likely that bitcoin is either going to have a similar or a higher relative value than it had earlier... so of course, if you have not been into bitcoin long enough then you might not have been able to realize an appreciation of the value of your bitcoin, and your forum registration is ONLY two months, so it could be possible that you have not been in bitcoin for long enough..

So maybe we have to go back to a longer example, such as myself.  Let's say hypothetically if between 2013 and 2017, I ended up acquiring a total 10 bitcoin, and it cost me around $10k to accumulate those 10 BTC.. so that is a cost of $1k per BTC.

Right now, I am not in any kind of desperate state regarding the BTC price because my profits are quite extensive (in the area of 30x on average if we are considering the current price of $30k per BTC).  so I have options with those 10 BTC in terms of how to spend them, and if some folks do not want to accept my BTC, then I could incur some extra costs in order to be able to get dollars or whatever it is that they would like to exchange with me for me to get what I want to get with those 10 BTC or some fraction of a BTC.. for example, if I want to spend 0.0001 BTC on a cup of coffee.. or an apple.

Another hypothetical person might not have gotten into bitcoin until the 2018 to 2020 time period, and that person might have ended up ONLY being able to acquire around 1 BTC for the similar amount of $10k investment, so that person ends up having a $10k per BTC cost per BTC.. and currently with our BTC prices at $30k, such an investor might not really be in the mood to spend  his/her bitcoin yet because s/he would just like to continue to stack sats and to keep building his/her BTC stash because s/he believes bitcoin will continue to go up in price, and maybe through the next 5 to 10 years s/he might be able to acquire another 0.2 BTC or maybe another 0.5 BTC depending on how much s/he is able to continue to invest into BTC with the passage of time and how much the BTC prices change during that ongoing investment period - whether the BTC prices go up or not (and many of us here seem to presume that on a longer timeframe BTC prices continue to have decently strongly likely chances to continue to go up with the passage of time, even though in the shorter time periods, it might not be so clear about how much BTC prices might go up or down).

Of course, you Snowshow sound as if you have been possibly studying bitcoin for longer than your forum registration date (which is only two months ago), but I can still appreciate how you may well feel confused or even not appreciating bitcoin's price going up with the passage of time if you have gotten into bitcoin in the past 2 years, it is possible that your BTC holdings could be under water at the moment.  

Surely, bitcoin has already had a history of showing that it can take a decent amount of time to appreciate in value, and I have many times mentioned in the forum that I had portions of my bitcoin (the ones purchased at $1.2k) that were under water for nearly 3.5 years from November 2013 to March 2017 before they started to come above water, and surely part of the saving grace could be ongoing buying that ends up bringing down the average price per BTC and maybe even raising the cost per BTC with other mistakes that are made along the way, too.  And, so maybe part of the point is that it can take a while for investment conviction to pay off and even to start to feel either decently large BTC compounding value or just have been able to accumulate enough with the passage of time and to have had enough time pass that the price has actually risen.. again getting back to timeline considerations which is also ONLY just one of the factors to consider regarding both getting into bitcoin and how much and how to allocate into it.

You can continue to speculate that bitcoin has no value and you can continue to not buy any bitcoin, or you can get the fuck started with some level of investment.  I would imagine that in 5-10 years, history is not going to look kindly upon folks who knew about bitcoin in these times, and failed/refused to at least not take some kind of initial meaningful stake within their means rather than just ongoingly blinding themselves (and naysaying) to what seems to actually be happening in the world and that bitcoin should at least serve as some kind of hedge to other current systems, even if you may well continue to retain some skepticisms in regards to how bitcoin is retaining its value relative to other possible investments that you could make in these here seemingly ongoing trying times.

Let me try again because I see you just write poems and repeat things irrelevant to this topic like if someone is paying you to do so. That's after all the reason I stopped responding to your answers. But I have hope. So let's me ask you once again. Let me ask a question related to this topic.

How bitcoin - whatever that is - has value, or how bitcoin benefits people if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system - where they supposedly got this valuable bitcoin, they are unable to return even a percentage of invested value, without new investors? Can you comprehend and answer such a simple question? If not, let me help you with two examples. The people that invested some type of value in Tesla company, are able to return other types of value from within that company. They got capital for the value they invested and capital produces value - cars. Capital also is value in itself because it consists of land, buildings, equipment and so on. And if they liquidate the company they have value. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created or present in the system itself. Example 2. Fiat currency system. When people invest value - goods/services/labor in this system, they are able to return value from within that system, as I have already explained. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created (by the borrowers) or present (collateral) in the system itself and returned to the investors. And now the bitcoin system. In itself, this system neither creates nor has value. That is why the only possible way for people to return value, once they invested value in the system, is from value brought by new investors. If new investors stop bringing value, the previous investors are left with nothing. So, let me repeat the question for you: how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system they are unable to return even a percentage of invested value, without new investors?

[JayJuanGee]

Everyone please STOP feeding the troll and STOP replying to his messages!
Snowshow is just one more liar with lot of free time, and he is doing ban evasion Antithesis = Antikvark = Fxsurfer (banned).
He doesn't know anything about Bitcoin or economy, and he imagines to be some kind of protector from evil myth, while supporting people like Warren Buffett.
If he can say that Bitcoin is a myth, than I can say that Snowshow is also a myth, something like unicorns.

A person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

Snowshow is a Myth and not Real.

I agree with you that snowshow is a troll/shill and likely disingenuine and spreading misinformation and disinformation... and yeah, maybe one day soon he will be banned.. .. perhaps? perhaps?

And, yeah perhaps he is a ban evader posting .. seems like someone had already pointed out the similar language.. so yeah.. his/her/its days are likely numbered.

[edited out]

Let me try again because I see you jest repeat things irrelevant to this topic like someone is paying you to do so.

Well yeah.. I already said that we are likely getting into repetition.

Someone paying me is a pretty lame accusation.. You must be thinking about the situation of ur lil selfie.

That's after all the reason I stopped responding to your answers.

You never really stopped responding.

But I have hope.

No you don't.  You have no hope if you actually believe enough of your bullshit to remain a no coiner.. however, I suspect that you receive your posting payments in bitcoin.  Hopefully, you are HODLing them... for your own good... not that you are likable or an empathetic character or anything like that.

So let's me ask you once again. Let me ask a question related to this topic.

My previous responses were attempts to be related to the topic... just to make the issues relateable in terms of value..

You asserted that bitcoin has no value, so I was presenting various scenarios to help to show ways of considering value that would be applicable to people in differing circumstances.. or at least attempting to illustrate some of those kinds of varying situations in which people might find themselves when attempting to consider how bitcoin may or may not be valuable to them or how they might be able to extract value out of it.   

How bitcoin - whatever that is - has value, or how bitcoin benefits people if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system - where they supposedly got this valuable bitcoin, they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors? Can you comprehend and answer such a simple question?

It is not just other investors that give bitcoin value, but also the varying network effects that are continuing to build and bring confidence in the system spreading and being adopted.

Sure in a simple way you are correct that someone else has to perceive value and bring a perception of value in order for me to sell BTC to them in 2022 at $30k-ish when I may well have bought the same coin in 2015 for around $250.  So for sure we use price as a way to measure how everyone is valuing bitcoin... or satoshis or whatever unit we want to use as our way of measuring our transactions once we make it.

If not, let me help you with two examples. The people that invested some type of value in Tesla company, are able to return other types of value from within that company. They got capital for the value they invested and capital produces value - cars. Capital also is value in itself because it consists of land, buildings, equipment and so on. And if they liquidate the company they have value. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created or present in the system itself. Example 2. Fiat currency system. When people invest value - goods/services/labor in this system, they are able to return value from within that system, as I have already explained. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created (by the borrowers) in the system itself and returned to the investors.

I don't see what purpose comes from me having to explain how bitcoin retains its value.  There are potential problems in investing in Tesla if you are talking about buying shares and what kinds of shares that you buy.  There are also problems with fiat in terms of value tending to be inflated away.. causing the currency to become less valuable with the passage of time, so whether or not these two systems that you point out have their own independence from having rely upon new investors as compared to bitcoin seems to be besides the point to a large degree.. even if you want to speculate the new entrants into bitcoin (or the lack thereof) as being some kind of fundamental differentiating point that causes bitcoin to have less value than either the Tesla or the fiat example... Bitcoin has other benefits and values as I have already described, and if I have not sufficiently and adequately described them to your liking, then so what?  It seems that I have described enough for you to get the fuck off of zero if you are still on zero after my previous posts... to the extent that you may have read them.

And now the bitcoin system. In itself, this system neither creates nor has no value. That is why the only possible way for people to return value, once they invested value in the system, is from value brought by new investors.

You are repeating yourself, and what you are saying does not seem to be true.   I already addressed some of the various ways that bitcoin has value.. and you continue to want to ignore matters.. which is not going to be good for you to continue to stay on zero... but hey.. you choose your own allocation or lack thereof.. it's your choice.

If new investors stop bringing value the previous investors are left with nothing.

You may be partially correct, but it's been working out pretty good so far including that a lot network effects continue to build in bitcoin.. so with the passage of time, there continues to be greater and greater adoption.. which surely there are network effects which have been described by Metcalfe principles.. which seem to be somewhat relevant to bitcoin, even if it might not have been specifically designed to address bitcoin's adoption and expansion.

So, let me repeat the question for you: how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system  they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors?

I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

[hZti]

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

I don't have to do anything. I proofed you wrong many times and gave you arguments why your assumptions are not correct. If you keep asking the same questions without accepting the answers this will lead to nothing. The problem is that you read something about the USD and are not able to adapt this system to the bitcoin. Because you are not able to adapt it you say that bitcoin is not existent and a scam. Only you don't understand that the problem is on your side and not on the side of bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

I didn't ask you to write peoms and I didn't ask you about prophecies. I am not interested in your opinions on the future, and whether you all will be fucked. I asked you, in the context of those two examples , how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors?

If this simple question is to hard for you to comprehend, I can ask you even a simpler one.

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that. However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

I don't have to do anything. I proofed you wrong many times and gave you arguments why your assumptions are not correct. If you keep asking the same questions without accepting the answers this will lead to nothing. The problem is that you read something about the USD and are not able to adapt this system to the bitcoin. Because you are not able to adapt it you say that bitcoin is not existent and a scam. Only you don't understand that the problem is on your side and not on the side of bitcoin.

Nobody is interested in your personal opinions on me. You said I was wrong. Prove it. You cannot prove me wrong by presenting your fantasies about me.

[Stalker22]

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that.

Let us stop here for a moment. In your fictional scenario, why do you think people would "invest their value in your system"? I think that is an important part.

However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

Yes. By luring investors with false promises about your "system," and later changing your terms, you would be considered to have deceived your investors, thus labeling you as a scammer.
However, I am not sure how this relates to Bitcoin in any way. Bitcoin, and the blockchain technology behind it, delivers exactly the "system" that people have been longing for. Ever since the introduction of Ecash by David Chaum in 1983. This particular "system" is the realization of a decentralized trustless system. This trustless system may not be perfect, but it does provide the ability to move funds without relying on any third party. It works regardless of the current value of individual units within the system.

So, if you have an idea for a better system, you are more than welcome to share it. Many have tried, and many have failed, but that does not mean that a new system will not replace Bitcoin at some point in the future. For now, though, Bitcoin remains the king.

[Snowshow]

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that.

Let us stop here for a moment. In your fictional scenario, why do you think people would "invest their value in your system"? I think that is an important part.

Because I wrote a paper in which I claimed that my system has revolutionary money.

However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

Yes. By luring investors with false promises about your "system," and later changing your terms, you would be considered to have deceived your investors, thus labeling you as a scammer.
However, I am not sure how this relates to Bitcoin in any way.

It relates to Bitcoin because people invested in the bitcoin system based on Satoshi's promises of money in the Whitepaper. Money is some kind of value that benefits people. However, no such value exists in the bitcoin system, which is why the investors are unable return their investments from within the system. Instead, they must wait for the investments of new investors for these returns. Hence, a textbook definition of an investment scam. In a legit systems, investors are able to return their investments from the value that is present in the system or that is created in the system - as I explained above in the two examples (Tesla, fiat currency system). If there were value inside the bitcoin system, then the current holders would use their evidences (certificates) of investment (bitcoins) for the access to that value. The same as certificates of investment in the Tesla system (stocks) or in fiat currency system (deposits and banknotes) grant access to the value present or created in these systems. But given that no such access exists, these certificates, that is bitcoins, are just fake data. Something equivalent to counterfeit money. And are used only to lure new investors into the scam.

[hZti]

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that.

Let us stop here for a moment. In your fictional scenario, why do you think people would "invest their value in your system"? I think that is an important part.

Because I wrote a paper in which I claimed that my system has revolutionary money.

Please do that and post a link here. If it is that easy then I would be curious how you are doing.

[JayJuanGee]

I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

I didn't ask you to write peoms and I didn't ask you about prophecies.

Why would it matter what you asked me to write?  First of all you seem to have a pretty fucked up view of the topic, and surely some folks, including yours truly, was willing to entertain some of your ways of presenting your case.. but in the end, there ends up being hardly any (if any) there there..,. Your ideas of supposed lack of value in bitcoin end up being quite vacuous, even if you attempt to present them in ways to attempt to suggest that you have some kind of profound viewpoint on the matter.

I am not interested in your opinions on the future, and whether you all will be fucked.

Why do we need to wait until the future?  People are already doing quite well with bitcoin.  Bitcoin is already a success in a large number of ways.  Sure, there are future considerations too, yet there seems to be no need to be projecting some indefinite point into the future in which supposedly we are all going to be fucked, but in the meantime, we have ended up suffering worst costs if we attempt to follow your nocoiner approach - that really has already proven to not be a good one.. and even if we were to hypothesize that you have gotten into bitcoin and you are currently in the red, then at that point there might be some need to figure out what your approach might be from there.. including maybe continuing to dollar cost average or buy on dips or just HODL through the whole matter.  Hopefully people are not failing/refusing to sufficiently and adequately account for their own cashflow situations and to make sure that they have their expenses sufficiently covered including maintaining some decent level of emergency expenses too.. and surely with an investment like bitcoin, the first several years could take some time to get into profits - and of course, there are not guarantees either, so in that regard, no one should be investing more than they can afford to lose - even if the investment thesis these  days seems to be quite stronger than it was in 2014 or even 2018 - so even if there are way fewer folks projecting bitcoin to go to zero, I still believe that there are a lot of benefits towards planning, strategizing and employing a somewhat prudent investment style while building ones bitcoin portfolio that might even take 4-10 years to build.. depending upon individual circumstances that should also be accounted for.

I asked you, in the context of those two examples , how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors?

If this simple question is to hard for you to comprehend, I can ask you even a simpler one.

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that. However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

For sure, you seem to be creating an artificial construct and then wanting to me to jump into your artificial construct.  I have already address the value question in regards to bitcoin, and you can keep fighting it all you like but I see no need to accept your framework, even though you continue to insist that I am not sufficiently/adequately playing ball with you.

It seems to me that I already sufficiently tried to play ball with you, and you fail to play ball back with me and you continue to insist on your way of framing value which ends up putting us into dumb hypotheticals that are detached from reality.. Furthermore, it seems to me that bitcoin has a strong enough fundamental case in terms of network effects that anybody should be able to initially allocate anywhere between 1% and 25% of his/her investment portfolio into bitcoin and then go from there.  Of course, if there is a lot of skepticism about bitcoin, then the level should be lower.. perhaps closer to 1%.  If you want to remain a nocoiner then that is your choice, but 1% seems to be a more prudent  approach, even for a bitcoin skeptic... and sure, some people might even take 3-12 months to get their bitcoin allocation up to 1%, and for sure, individual circumstances are going to vary in terms of whether they have other investments and how they decide to get into bitcoin, whether it would be DCA, buying on dips, lump sum investing or some combination of the three in order to establish their initial stake - and hopefully, researching into bitcoin at the same time in order that they are going to become more comfortable with whatever strategy that they have established and maybe even tweaking their strategy once they are more informed about what brings value to bitcoin.

[PepeLapiu]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will eventually.
I want to point out that you don't get to decide what is money to others. If Bob and I decide something is money to us, than so it is.
You may say that cigarettes are not money. But inmates all understand that cigarettes are money, even the ones who don't smoke. They all threat cigarettes as money. In fact your dollars are almost worthless to an inmate.

Are Pokemon cards money? You can debate that with a 5 year old and you will lose the debate.
And yes, I agree, you can't hold it touch or see a Bitcoin. But try to think of the internet as it's own sovereign country. Every sovereign country has it's own central bank and currency. Now the internet has it's own central bank and currency.

And like everything else on the internet, in the digital world, you can not touch, hold, smell, or see Bitcoin. Bitcoin simply would not be able to exist as internet money if you could hold it in your hand.

But I am always surprised at people who keep saying you can't touch Bitcoin therefore it's not real. Yet they use bank cards, credit cards, and other digital forms of currencies. In fact when my own father told me Bitcoin can't be touched, I told him I would buy him a steak dinner if he could reach into his pocket and touch his money.

He lost. I still bough him.a nice steak paid for with digital not real money on my credit card.

20 years ago I was screaming on the roof tops that there is a global agenda to make all fiat currencies digital with no cash. All digital currencies controlled by government. And most people laughted at me. Today those same people accept that 98% of all transactions in my country are digital only with no real fiat paper backing it up.

The world will move towards digital currency alright. But it won't be controlled by politicians and bureaucrats. And it will still qualify as cash.

Feel free to completely ignore me. Many people did 5 and 6 years ago. Now many if them are asking me about Bitcoin.

[Mr.sprin]

Bitcoin is a myth it's an old story before bitcoin has a high selling price as it is now but now I dare say bitcoin is real because many people who invest in bitcoin have succeeded and it's real not a myth.

[Snowshow]

I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

I didn't ask you to write peoms and I didn't ask you about prophecies.

Why would it matter what you asked me to write?  First of all you seem to have a pretty fucked up view of the topic, and surely some folks, including yours truly, was willing to entertain some of your ways of presenting your case.. but in the end, there ends up being hardly any (if any) there there..,. Your ideas of supposed lack of value in bitcoin end up being quite vacuous, even if you attempt to present them in ways to attempt to suggest that you have some kind of profound viewpoint on the matter.

I am not interested in your opinions on the future, and whether you all will be fucked.

Why do we need to wait until the future?  People are already doing quite well with bitcoin.  Bitcoin is already a success in a large number of ways.  Sure, there are future considerations too, yet there seems to be no need to be projecting some indefinite point into the future in which supposedly we are all going to be fucked, but in the meantime, we have ended up suffering worst costs if we attempt to follow your nocoiner approach - that really has already proven to not be a good one.. and even if we were to hypothesize that you have gotten into bitcoin and you are currently in the red, then at that point there might be some need to figure out what your approach might be from there.. including maybe continuing to dollar cost average or buy on dips or just HODL through the whole matter.  Hopefully people are not failing/refusing to sufficiently and adequately account for their own cashflow situations and to make sure that they have their expenses sufficiently covered including maintaining some decent level of emergency expenses too.. and surely with an investment like bitcoin, the first several years could take some time to get into profits - and of course, there are not guarantees either, so in that regard, no one should be investing more than they can afford to lose - even if the investment thesis these  days seems to be quite stronger than it was in 2014 or even 2018 - so even if there are way fewer folks projecting bitcoin to go to zero, I still believe that there are a lot of benefits towards planning, strategizing and employing a somewhat prudent investment style while building ones bitcoin portfolio that might even take 4-10 years to build.. depending upon individual circumstances that should also be accounted for.

I asked you, in the context of those two examples , how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors?

If this simple question is to hard for you to comprehend, I can ask you even a simpler one.

Let's say I created a system. Then I say to people: "invest your value in my system". And people do that. However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

For sure, you seem to be creating an artificial construct and then wanting to me to jump into your artificial construct.  I have already address the value question in regards to bitcoin, and you can keep fighting it all you like but I see no need to accept your framework, even though you continue to insist that I am not sufficiently/adequately playing ball with you.

It seems to me that I already sufficiently tried to play ball with you, and you fail to play ball back with me and you continue to insist on your way of framing value which ends up putting us into dumb hypotheticals that are detached from reality.. Furthermore, it seems to me that bitcoin has a strong enough fundamental case in terms of network effects that anybody should be able to initially allocate anywhere between 1% and 25% of his/her investment portfolio into bitcoin and then go from there.  Of course, if there is a lot of skepticism about bitcoin, then the level should be lower.. perhaps closer to 1%.  If you want to remain a nocoiner then that is your choice, but 1% seems to be a more prudent  approach, even for a bitcoin skeptic... and sure, some people might even take 3-12 months to get their bitcoin allocation up to 1%, and for sure, individual circumstances are going to vary in terms of whether they have other investments and how they decide to get into bitcoin, whether it would be DCA, buying on dips, lump sum investing or some combination of the three in order to establish their initial stake - and hopefully, researching into bitcoin at the same time in order that they are going to become more comfortable with whatever strategy that they have established and maybe even tweaking their strategy once they are more informed about what brings value to bitcoin.

You don't have to accept anything. You just have to answer where's value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return their investment without the value brought by new investors. Because, you constantly preach about bitcoin's value, or bitcoin did this, bitcoin did that. Bitcoin is just an evidence that people invested into the system, and has, for e.g., this form: "0.123 BTC". If they invest more they get bigger number. So, that's some kind of digital certificate of investment, as I have explained in the post #395. So, bitcoin doesn't have powers to do something, or to benefit someone. It's just data verifying that people invested in the system. If they invested in the system, then the system has to return them their investments. Yet, this is impossible. They cannot get anything from the system, but instead, they must wait for someone from the outside to bring the value in. Which is an indispensable proof that nothing exists in the bitcoin system. Just like in my fictional system, where I got people to invest in it, but then, they were able to return the investments only from new investments. It's literally mind boggling how you repeatedly ignore this important point, and just talk about completely irrelevant stuff. Or you just repeat that mantra about bitcoin's value. So, I'll ask you once again: where do you see value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return even a dime worth of investment without new investors? Or to put it another way: if the influx of new investors stops, how can the holders return their investments? Given you constantly preach about value in the bitcoin system, then you obviously know the answer.