Ukraine VS Russia. Ideological or Economical conflict

[DVlog]

~snip

So why even attempt to explain everything as if they're economical?

Because it is economical. I think that the ideological theory and fantasy of Dagan are just to brainwash Rush people. Hitler has done Similar thing in nazi Germany. According to media reports, 200k people were gathered in Moscow in support of Putin.

[1714752053]

1714752053

[Darker45]

~snip

So why even attempt to explain everything as if they're economical?

Because it is economical. I think that the ideological theory and fantasy of Dagan are just to brainwash Rush people. Hitler has done Similar thing in nazi Germany. According to media reports, 200k people were gathered in Moscow in support of Putin.

You're now confusing me even more.

First, there was this:

The main reason is economic...

But then there was this one:

How do you so sure about Putin's mental conditions? Do not forget he is a former KGB agent that gives him a cold-blooded mind. Putin is not in fantasy nor it is his own will that is going on right now. The Russians have carried out many military operations outside the country since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Georgia (2006), Crimea (2014), Belarus (2020), Kazakhstan (2022), and then Ukraine (2022). But in reality, from Russia's point of view, these campaigns are not the military adventures of a single individual. Behind each expedition is comprehensive integrated thinking of the future geographical plans of the Russians. To understand Russia's ongoing militarism, we must turn our attention away from Putin to Alexander Dagan, one of Putin's advisers.

Alexander Dagan's own book where he talk about his new ideology. "The Fourth Political Theory"

Dagin thinks that equality is an invalid concept. Europe must now focus on establishing the ‘Eurasia’ empire, in which the Russians will be the heroes. In other words, it will be a 'Greater Russia', an empire dominated by old religions and political structures.

This talk looks like a fantasy but I am afraid that he is exactly doing everything for it at least all these Russ military expeditions point towards that. he is the man behind all these military interventions of Russia and he is using Putin[/color]. Putin has a very close relationship with Dagin and is influenced by his ideology.

War on Ukraine is part of a long pre-planned picture which can be proven from a statement of Degan in 2006.

During the Russian invasion of Georgia, Dagan visited South Ossetia and, in support of his country's military operation in Georgia, said, "These territories, including Tbilisi, Crimea, and Ukraine, belong to the Russians."

I am not sure in the long term Russia could succeed or not but it will make the whole of Europe a continent of ruins.

I cannot see any economic explanation here. So which is which? Is it economical, ideological, political, geographical? Or was it simply a dream of the past? A vision of the future? Or was it simply a war waged because of brainwashing?

1. Is it unimaginable for an entire country in these modern times to elect a madman? Look around. Or does a people even elect?

Russia didn't make the step to proper democracy. And even in a (young) democracy, it's not unimaginable at all to elect a madman; it can easily happen because of lacking actual choices.
The thing is that in a democracy the pillars of the state are not linked/interconnected, hence they won't allow a man (or even a small group) rule.
Since Russia is not a proper democracy, there's no other power in the state that could veto any of the president's actions.

And since this situation is there for too long, I expect that anybody even daring to question his actions is basically doomed. So it's a totalitarian state (weakly) disguised in democracy.

I completely agree, but my point is that even in a fair democratic process a madman could win. I myself freely voted for a president, and he's a madman, perhaps of a lesser degree.

[el kaka22]

There are many countries that were once a part of Russia. So now Putin will reclaim all those countries? Crimea was part of Ukraine On 19 February 1954 even before Ukraine got independent. Basically, Crimea also got independent from the former soviet union as a part of Ukraine. Crimea consists mostly of pro-Russian people which is another matter.

In all seriousness, if he could control all of them, he would. There are some places that he ignores for some reason and he just doesn't even look at them. But aside from those few places, he would like to control every single USSR part of his old nation. Obviously he can't just take the whole land and make it Russian, he just makes it de facto Russian simply. Look at Belarus right now, we all know they are their own nations and yet we all know that it is run by a guy that is a puppet of Putin.

You may hate this situation, a whole nation that is controlled by a puppet of Putin, but USA and UK have done this a million times in history, every powerful nation benefits doing this and do not care about hurting others.

[TimeTeller]

There are many countries that were once a part of Russia. So now Putin will reclaim all those countries? Crimea was part of Ukraine On 19 February 1954 even before Ukraine got independent. Basically, Crimea also got independent from the former soviet union as a part of Ukraine. Crimea consists mostly of pro-Russian people which is another matter.

In all seriousness, if he could control all of them, he would. There are some places that he ignores for some reason and he just doesn't even look at them. But aside from those few places, he would like to control every single USSR part of his old nation. Obviously he can't just take the whole land and make it Russian, he just makes it de facto Russian simply. Look at Belarus right now, we all know they are their own nations and yet we all know that it is run by a guy that is a puppet of Putin.

You may hate this situation, a whole nation that is controlled by a puppet of Putin, but USA and UK have done this a million times in history, every powerful nation benefits doing this and do not care about hurting others.

We can't avoid this situation, I guess. A powerful country wanting to control a weaker one for some hidden interests.
And it is not only happening with Russia over Ukraine. There are many others but we are not blaming this hard as with Russia.
Russia's move is a very violent one breaking the war protocols making it an illegal war. Bluntly killing innocent civilians.
We are already in this digital age, so they can't cover up those mistakes. They have no way of saying they are not doing it.

[Yogee]

....
2. why did Russia annex Crimea?

a) There is a trillion dollars worth of gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea which Russia wants. This was the main and first reason behind the Russian occupation in Crimea.

b) Crimean seaport Sevastopol didn't freeze in winter which makes it unique from most other seaports in Europe. This means Russia can operate business even in winter through this seaport. Not only that it can be used as a naval fleet for the Russian navy the whole year. And its location gives Russia the power to conduct any naval operation to the whole of Europe.

... ]

I'm having difficulty understanding the first one since they were still paying Ukraine before the previous President was overthrown via coup d'etat with the help of the West in 2014. Russia was more likely threatened so they had to do a pre-emptive strike before the newly installed leader would change the deal or completely ignore it. I believe that's the main reason for the Crimea annexation.

[kaya11]

Many of us think that Russia's attack on Ukraine is due to its joining NATO which I think isn't valid because Russia has a border with two other NATO members. The main reason is economic not ideological or security concerns. Both sides have some responsibility behind the conflict but that hasn't given Russia the right to annex Crimea or attack Ukraine. Did I miss any points here?

It is economic, , it is not just the water but there are different things too.  Ukraine has so many natural resources and could fill up the gap within Russias supplies, for instance Uranium which is needed in making Nuclear weapons etc.

[cabron]

Many of us think that Russia's attack on Ukraine is due to its joining NATO which I think isn't valid because Russia has a border with two other NATO members. The main reason is economic not ideological or security concerns. Both sides have some responsibility behind the conflict but that hasn't given Russia the right to annex Crimea or attack Ukraine. Did I miss any points here?

It is economic, , it is not just the water but there are different things too.  Ukraine has so many natural resources and could fill up the gap within Russias supplies, for instance Uranium which is needed in making Nuclear weapons etc.

It's true also. Whether Putin wants to take back what the Soviets had conquered before or not, he is gaining in this fight. During the Minsk agreement in 2014, everything was settled already because after all, Russia had leased that part of Crimea for years. Why end the contract and let someone else lease when they have not defaulted? 

It requires a deep understanding, not just a shallow memory of Putin bad or Hitler is bad. If they have to live as neighbors, both countries should have respect for each other and not find faults.

While there are countries surrounding Russia that are part of NATO, they are not hostile to them, there is no border dispute and no ballistic weapons pointing to Russia yet. But they should be worried too especially because there are US military bases with a small number of US troops, Putin already warn them like Latvia.

[laredo7mm]

Many of us think that Russia's attack on Ukraine is due to its joining NATO which I think isn't valid because Russia has a border with two other NATO members. The main reason is economic not ideological or security concerns. Both sides have some responsibility behind the conflict but that hasn't given Russia the right to annex Crimea or attack Ukraine. Did I miss any points here?

It is economic, , it is not just the water but there are different things too.  Ukraine has so many natural resources and could fill up the gap within Russias supplies, for instance Uranium which is needed in making Nuclear weapons etc.

It's true also. Whether Putin wants to take back what the Soviets had conquered before or not, he is gaining in this fight. During the Minsk agreement in 2014, everything was settled already because after all, Russia had leased that part of Crimea for years. Why end the contract and let someone else lease when they have not defaulted? 

It requires a deep understanding, not just a shallow memory of Putin bad or Hitler is bad. If they have to live as neighbors, both countries should have respect for each other and not find faults.

While there are countries surrounding Russia that are part of NATO, they are not hostile to them, there is no border dispute and no ballistic weapons pointing to Russia yet. But they should be worried too especially because there are US military bases with a small number of US troops, Putin already warn them like Latvia.

Its been a quite long time since Putin warned Russia's neighboring state about joining NATO. But how does he explains the annexation of Crimea? The Russian navy was using Crimean seaports by leasing them but that doesn't make them the rightful owner of that part. As an independent country, Ukraine has the right not to make a new contract about leasing its ports to another country.

[asus09]

Many of us think that Russia's attack on Ukraine is due to its joining NATO which I think isn't valid because Russia has a border with two other NATO members. The main reason is economic not ideological or security concerns. Both sides have some responsibility behind the conflict but that hasn't given Russia the right to annex Crimea or attack Ukraine. Did I miss any points here?

It is economic, , it is not just the water but there are different things too.  Ukraine has so many natural resources and could fill up the gap within Russias supplies, for instance Uranium which is needed in making Nuclear weapons etc.

I totally agree with your opinion, this is not an ideological conflict but an economic conflict, because we know that there are a lot of agricultural products in Ukraine, Ukraine has a lot of wealth from mining products such as natural gas, coal, iron ore, etc., because if a country does not produce wealth nature is certain that there will be no country that wants to spend a lot of money to fight this country, such as Indonesia which does not want to fight Timor Leste, because the country knows Timor Leste does not have crops, most wars occur because of economic problems, including Russia's inflation to the country. Ukraine.

[Gyfts]

....
2. why did Russia annex Crimea?

a) There is a trillion dollars worth of gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea which Russia wants. This was the main and first reason behind the Russian occupation in Crimea.

b) Crimean seaport Sevastopol didn't freeze in winter which makes it unique from most other seaports in Europe. This means Russia can operate business even in winter through this seaport. Not only that it can be used as a naval fleet for the Russian navy the whole year. And its location gives Russia the power to conduct any naval operation to the whole of Europe.

... ]

I'm having difficulty understanding the first one since they were still paying Ukraine before the previous President was overthrown via coup d'etat with the help of the West in 2014. Russia was more likely threatened so they had to do a pre-emptive strike before the newly installed leader would change the deal or completely ignore it. I believe that's the main reason for the Crimea annexation.

You're correct. The economic incentive is not there for Ukraine. Assuming the war does not last years and that Russia could take over Ukraine tomorrow, their economy is still in the gutter and Rubles is becoming more worthless as the sanctions continue. Ukraine doesn't have enough natural resources in order to justify invasion. If it did, the U.S. would have troops on the ground at this moment.

[bustabitsboy]

This invasion is neither ideological nor economical. This invasion is simply born out of a folly. Arguing that this invasion is either ideological or economical is dignifying it. At the bottom of it, this is nothing but a decision of a deranged man. Putin is becoming a crazy dictator who is living in a world of fantasy. The problem is that he has so much power and he is a mad man. Everybody is afraid to confront him and tell him he is out of his mind. I know for sure that even some of those people in his inner circle do not approve of this stupidity.

The most stupid post I've read about Putin. Who do you think would appoint a madman to the presidency? Do you know the population of Russia? Or maybe you forgot what time you live in? Is this medieval?
Try to shift your eyes to Russian resources and read what is the demilitarization of Ukraine and the denationalization of Ukraine. Try using a translator. Type in the search the genocide of the Russian-speaking population of Donbas for 8 years. Read about the Gorlovskaya Madonna. Do you know what Nazism is? This is exactly what was the reason that the operation began by the Russian authorities. Liberation of Ukraine from Nazism.
Although I understand that all words are useless while there is a mass mailing of fake news. But history always shows that sooner or later people will find out the truth, it takes time.

I am not a politician or a historian, I am a simple working person and I sew clothes. I feel sorry for the people who died in the war. And I really wanted to help the people of Ukraine. But I saw a video of Ukrainians feeding a Russian soldier, who for some reason is dressed in a military uniform of the Ukrainian army, and I understand that not everything can go smoothly with my donation. I may lose my money. Now I don't want to hear what they tell us about this war. I agree with you that it will take some time before we find out the truth.

[Inspiron14]

....
2. why did Russia annex Crimea?

a) There is a trillion dollars worth of gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea which Russia wants. This was the main and first reason behind the Russian occupation in Crimea.

b) Crimean seaport Sevastopol didn't freeze in winter which makes it unique from most other seaports in Europe. This means Russia can operate business even in winter through this seaport. Not only that it can be used as a naval fleet for the Russian navy the whole year. And its location gives Russia the power to conduct any naval operation to the whole of Europe.

... ]

I'm having difficulty understanding the first one since they were still paying Ukraine before the previous President was overthrown via coup d'etat with the help of the West in 2014. Russia was more likely threatened so they had to do a pre-emptive strike before the newly installed leader would change the deal or completely ignore it. I believe that's the main reason for the Crimea annexation.

You're correct. The economic incentive is not there for Ukraine. Assuming the war does not last years and that Russia could take over Ukraine tomorrow, their economy is still in the gutter and Rubles is becoming more worthless as the sanctions continue. Ukraine doesn't have enough natural resources in order to justify invasion. If it did, the U.S. would have troops on the ground at this moment.

Apart from the sanctions imposed by several countries on Russia, which of course have an effect on many things including the economy, I think Russia has taken all of that into account.
what is clear is that both the Ukrainian and Russian economies are currently in complete disarray,
and in the midst of a war like this it is certainly not an easy thing to recover

[laredo7mm]

....
2. why did Russia annex Crimea?

a) There is a trillion dollars worth of gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea which Russia wants. This was the main and first reason behind the Russian occupation in Crimea.

b) Crimean seaport Sevastopol didn't freeze in winter which makes it unique from most other seaports in Europe. This means Russia can operate business even in winter through this seaport. Not only that it can be used as a naval fleet for the Russian navy the whole year. And its location gives Russia the power to conduct any naval operation to the whole of Europe.

... ]

I'm having difficulty understanding the first one since they were still paying Ukraine before the previous President was overthrown via coup d'etat with the help of the West in 2014. Russia was more likely threatened so they had to do a pre-emptive strike before the newly installed leader would change the deal or completely ignore it. I believe that's the main reason for the Crimea annexation.

You're correct. The economic incentive is not there for Ukraine. Assuming the war does not last years and that Russia could take over Ukraine tomorrow, their economy is still in the gutter and Rubles is becoming more worthless as the sanctions continue. Ukraine doesn't have enough natural resources in order to justify invasion. If it did, the U.S. would have troops on the ground at this moment.

Apart from the sanctions imposed by several countries on Russia, which of course have an effect on many things including the economy, I think Russia has taken all of that into account.
what is clear is that both the Ukrainian and Russian economies are currently in complete disarray,
and in the midst of a war like this it is certainly not an easy thing to recover

Western sanction on russia is not new for them. Russia faces such sanction in 2006 and 2014. So it will be a childish thought that Putin didn't expect such action from the west and didn't took any necessary steps. A data shows putin convers more than 600 Billion worth of dollar to gold which i assume could be 3 to 4 times greater than this figure. They Keep only 16% of their reserve currency to USD which western country froze. Now putin demanding rubles as a payments from any country who wants to buy oil and gas from russia. A cleaver move from putin.

[Markinzo]

The Russia and Ukraine war is both economical and ideological_cum_political. It's economical in the sense that Russia has other neighbouring countries it shares borders with, why haven't Russia made occupation of part of these other neighbouring countries except  Crimea in Ukraine. Crimea has been resourceful to Russia since it's occupation, only the gas alone it supplies to Europe is enough advantage to Russia's economy , not to talk of the seaport.

This war only seems much ideological to many , in that, the ideological_cum_political part of the war whereby Ukraine took the decision of joining NATO  is what brokes the camel's back, in which the war then got aggravated and situations heightened.

[LUCKMCFLY]

The Russia and Ukraine war is both economical and ideological_cum_political. It's economical in the sense that Russia has other neighbouring countries it shares borders with, why haven't Russia made occupation of part of these other neighbouring countries except  Crimea in Ukraine. Crimea has been resourceful to Russia since it's occupation, only the gas alone it supplies to Europe is enough advantage to Russia's economy , not to talk of the seaport.

This war only seems much ideological to many , in that, the ideological_cum_political part of the war whereby Ukraine took the decision of joining NATO  is what brokes the camel's back, in which the war then got aggravated and situations heightened.

I think the main reason why Russia has not messed with the neighboring countries is because they have let them know that they will not join either RUSSIA or NATO, the biggest problem of all was that UKRAINE has expressed the idea of wanting to join NATO, for its part it is easy to give as a country like Finland, they declared themselves neutral, however Putin sent their respective threat to them and Sweden not to get involved because it could go very badly, so the Russian rule reaches those countries whether they like it or not, and Ukraine was also the heart of the Soviet Union, in some way this country represents being of great interest to Russia.

[Xampeuu]

The Russia and Ukraine war is both economical and ideological_cum_political. It's economical in the sense that Russia has other neighbouring countries it shares borders with, why haven't Russia made occupation of part of these other neighbouring countries except  Crimea in Ukraine. Crimea has been resourceful to Russia since it's occupation, only the gas alone it supplies to Europe is enough advantage to Russia's economy , not to talk of the seaport.

This war only seems much ideological to many , in that, the ideological_cum_political part of the war whereby Ukraine took the decision of joining NATO  is what brokes the camel's back, in which the war then got aggravated and situations heightened.

I think the main reason why Russia has not messed with the neighboring countries is because they have let them know that they will not join either RUSSIA or NATO, the biggest problem of all was that UKRAINE has expressed the idea of wanting to join NATO, for its part it is easy to give as a country like Finland, they declared themselves neutral, however Putin sent their respective threat to them and Sweden not to get involved because it could go very badly, so the Russian rule reaches those countries whether they like it or not, and Ukraine was also the heart of the Soviet Union, in some way this country represents being of great interest to Russia.

geographically also ukraine seems to be in front of the gate of russia, and this is as putin said. Putin believes that if he is surrounded by enemies in front of his house, of course this is a threat to Russia. this happened since ukraine will join nato, whose ruler is a big enemy during the second world war. so for this war I think the biggest cause is ideological views

[Kakmakr]

Russia should actually be more worried about the Bosphorus strait and also the Dardanelles Strait for their access to the Mediterranean Sea and hope that the treaties will be honored in a time of war. 

I think the gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea was the main reason why Russia wanted to expand it's borders... so it boils down to the economical factors and not the access to the Mediterranean Sea. 

Putin also did not like it that a leader of the Ukraine was not controlled by him... and that is what happened since Volodymyr Zelenskyy came into power in 2019.    ( Zelenskyy is the first Jewish president and with Volodymyr Groysman as prime minister, Ukraine became the first country other than Israel to have a Jewish head of state and head of government. )  Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy

[darkangel11]

geographically also ukraine seems to be in front of the gate of russia, and this is as putin said. Putin believes that if he is surrounded by enemies in front of his house, of course this is a threat to Russia. this happened since ukraine will join nato, whose ruler is a big enemy during the second world war. so for this war I think the biggest cause is ideological views

And why do you think it is that Ukraine is trying to join NATO and become officially the enemy of Russia?

I'll tell you. It's because Russians cannot be trusted. They're a bunch of liars and bullies. They gave Ukraine independence in exchange for its nuclear weapons. Now they claim this deal was signed by old socialist government and it doesn't count, but they will not give the weapons back. They want to nullify their side of the agreement, as it fits them. They also claim that the Soviet Union should go back to its former borders, which means annexing a few other independent countries that have a different language culture and religion from Russia. It will never happen and Russians know it, but this doesn't mean they can't bully those countries to show how deeply saddened they are for the loss of Soviet republics.

[Hydrogen]

Some might find the following interesting.

Ukraine: The breadbasket of Europe

January 13, 2020

Ukraine increased its grain exports by 34 per cent to 31.1 million tonnes in the 2019-20 July-June season, helped by higher wheat and corn exports, the country’s Ministry for Development of Economy, Trade, and Agriculture has revealed.

Wheat exports rose by 4.5 million tonnes to 14.99 million tonnes, while the country also exported 3.7 million tonnes of barley and 12 million tonnes of corn.

Ukraine harvested a record 74 million tonnes of grain this year compared with 70 million tonnes in 2018.

Figures from the European Commission also suggest that agriculture in Ukraine is booming: the country was the third largest supplier of agricultural produce to the European Union in the period November 2018 – October 2019, exporting 7.26 billion euros worth of produce to the EU during the 12-month period, behind only the US and Brazil.

https://emerging-europe.com/business/ukraine-the-breadbasket-of-europe/

It appears ukraine is the 3rd largest supplier of agricultural produce to the european union. If Putin was able to invade ukraine, he would own a good percentage of EU oil consumption and agricultural produce.



The Carpathian Mountains are a good natural defense. Putin asked for land behind this mountain range, if I remember correctly.

There is a famous story about Putin's childhood circulating in the media. As a child Putin cornered a rat. The rat was boxed in and had no path to escape. It decided to attack Putin. Pundits claimed that Putin had come full circle in his life by eventually becoming the cornered rat, himself. I'm not certain I believe that but it is an interesting observation.

[TimeTeller]

Russia should actually be more worried about the Bosphorus strait and also the Dardanelles Strait for their access to the Mediterranean Sea and hope that the treaties will be honored in a time of war.  

I think the gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea was the main reason why Russia wanted to expand it's borders... so it boils down to the economical factors and not the access to the Mediterranean Sea.  

Putin also did not like it that a leader of the Ukraine was not controlled by him... and that is what happened since Volodymyr Zelenskyy came into power in 2019.    ( Zelenskyy is the first Jewish president and with Volodymyr Groysman as prime minister, Ukraine became the first country other than Israel to have a Jewish head of state and head of government. )  Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy

Reading the points from various users here as well as the OP, it seems that the major reason for this war is more on economical aspect.
But as we read the news during the early days of war, they were pointing out that the reason was because Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO.
And with more and more analysis of what is happening between these 2 countries, we are discovering that there's really more than meets the eyes here.
But Putin's method is not a very good one to tackle this situation, or maybe, it is the only way he thought that will totally make Ukraine under his power.