Ledger Live Liars Data Collection

[NeuroticFish]

I don't think you can say that for sure. Given that on Ledger devices you can enter a passphrase without opening the bitcoin app, then clearly it can still access the seed phrase and perform operations on it, which will include potentially deriving public keys. Given it is closed source, we can't say for sure this isn't happening.

That's true.

I think the best option is to have your basic wallet completely empty and only store coins behind additional, temporary passphrases. If you then only unlock your wallet but never enter a passphrase before connecting to Ledger Live for updates, and only open your passphrased wallets when connected to your own Electrum server or similar, then this should (but again, we can't be certain) prevent the public keys from your passphrased wallets being leaked during an update.

Alternatively have a dummy seed phrase which you enter to the device prior to any updates, and then restore your real seed phrase after.

Actually I find the best option to have a cold storage and not a hardware wallet, especially a closed source one. Convenience has its price and that price is unfortunately rising.


Using a different seed phrase will not work because in order to change the seed you have to enter wrong PIN 3 times and reset the device. The result is that the apps have to be reinstalled at the moment the device has your HD seed and this procedure is done with (drums) Ledger Live. Yeah...

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[Charles-Tim]

Actually I find the best option to have a cold storage and not a hardware wallet, especially a closed source one. Convenience has its price and that price is unfortunately rising.

Just that hardware wallets support several altcoins unlike cold storage like airgapped devices. Aside that, no other convenience, like while making transaction. It is a good option for people that just want to be making use of bitcoin to go for airgapped device. No one would know if the device is actually a cold storage wallet or not. Hardware wallet that has an element of close source is worst, be it its software or secure element or anything used in the wallet makeup.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Wasabi is the most popular privacy solution on Bitcoin

If you believe that to be true, then all the more reason you should be fighting to protect that privacy and not capitulating of your own free will, even before being forced to by any legislation.

Actually I find the best option to have a cold storage and not a hardware wallet, especially a closed source one. Convenience has its price and that price is unfortunately rising.

Well, that's true. I gave up using my Ledger devices a long time ago, and various events from the massive data breach to them integrating a KYC debit card directly in their software have proven time and again that that was the right decision. But lots of people will continue to use hardware devices for their convenience over setting up airgapped cold storage.

Using a different seed phrase will not work because in order to change the seed you have to enter wrong PIN 3 times and reset the device. The result is that the apps have to be reinstalled at the moment the device has your HD seed and this procedure is done with (drums) Ledger Live. Yeah...

I thought there was an option in the settings to simply enter a new seed phrase, but I must be confusing it with a different hardware wallet. As I said, it's been a while since I used one.

[nopara73]

Wasabi is the most popular privacy solution on Bitcoin

If you believe that to be true, then all the more reason you should be fighting to protect that privacy and not capitulating of your own free will, even before being forced to by any legislation.

This is a fact, not an opinion: https://github.com/nopara73/Dumplings

Anyhow, I agree with you and that's what we're doing: https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-blacklisting-update/
It's just legislation isn't the only way criminal organizations like governments are going after you. Not even the primary one.

[n0nce]

Wasabi is the most popular privacy solution on Bitcoin

If you believe that to be true, then all the more reason you should be fighting to protect that privacy and not capitulating of your own free will, even before being forced to by any legislation.

This is a fact, not an opinion: https://github.com/nopara73/Dumplings

Anyhow, I agree with you and that's what we're doing: https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-blacklisting-update/
It's just legislation isn't the only way criminal organizations like governments are going after you. Not even the primary one.

I only see excuses and justifications; no attempts to apologize and make things better, such as reverting the decision, since there are no legal reasons to do something like this right now. And those premium devs that you can hire with your super company money, could come up with something better before such laws kick in. It's clear that you guys chose the 'easy way'. Took the 'blue pill', if you wish.

One idea that I randomly came up with was: shut down your centralized coordinator, explain how to set up own coordinators and introduce a way in the GUI to set that 'custom coordinator'. Maybe keep the zkSNACKS one running as a fallback for a transition period. That's just one idea of many that your highly specialized, trained professional developer team might consider along with many others that they have much higher chances to think of than myself.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Anyhow, I agree with you and that's what we're doing: https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-blacklisting-update/

That blog post doesn't explain a single thing you are doing to fight this; it just make a list of excuses as to why you are selling out, followed by a final two paragraphs reminding everyone how great you are for selling them out. Not to mention some very dubious statements it makes, such as:

The alternative, discontinuing zkSNACKs would have set back Bitcoin privacy for decades.

Lol. Decades? Bitcoin is only 13 years old but your wallet is so amazing that without it Bitcoin would have been set back decades? Come on.

Blacklisting by the default coordinator, while undesirable, is a small price to pay for the future of Bitcoin's privacy.

Right, because if you didn't start censoring people, then privacy as we know it would be over.

The zkSNACKs coordinator having a blacklist does not mean Wasabi Wallet monitors or collects user data.

No, you'll just hire a blockchain analysis company instead and get them to spy on people on your behalf, as your team stated on Telegram. Because I definitely want my coinjoin fees to go straight to a blockchain analysis company. Don't you just love paying people to spy on you?

You can't claim to be protecting privacy while also being pro-censorship, since to censor certain outputs you must first invade the privacy of everybody using your service. Even the users who aren't censored are being monitored by whatever blockchain analysis companies you hire to make sure they are being good little citizens, and they are paying for the privilege of being spied on.

[nopara73]

Wasabi Wallet 2.0 is decades ahead of other privacy solutions in Bitcoin. There's Samourai that's a scam and so aggressive they scare away every newcomer who would like to develop for Bitcoin privacy. That leaves JoinMarket that's coming along nicely, however as a project without funding, its development is much slower.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You are still not addressing any of the very valid concerns being raised in this thread.

Wasabi Wallet 2.0 is decades ahead of other privacy solutions in Bitcoin.

Will 2.0 also censor users? If so, then you can't honestly claim to be decades ahead of anything.

There's Samourai that's a scam

In what way? Because they known your xpub if you don't run Dojo, the same as any other SPV wallet? Bit of a stretch to call that a scam.

That leaves JoinMarket that's coming along nicely

Cool, let's all use that then.

[nopara73]

> Will 2.0 also censor users? If so, then you can't honestly claim to be decades ahead of anything.

You're conflating Wasabi Wallet, the open source software with zkSNACKs, the company that's running a Wasabi coordinator.

> In what way? Because they known your xpub if you don't run Dojo, the same as any other SPV wallet? Bit of a stretch to call that a scam.

SPV wallets don't send xpubs to servers, but I'll assume you wanted to say "most light wallets" which would make it true. Yes, you have zero privacy with most light wallets. The difference with Samourai is they don't advertise themselves as a privacy wallet.  
Don't take it as an offense, but the fact that you brought up running Dojo as the solution to this shows that you've just been scammed by them. We know that the default user sends their xpubs to Samourai, therefore these users gain zero privacy against their server even if they mix. Even if you use a full node to mix (dojo) you'll be still deanonymized by exclusion. Anonymity likes company. You cannot be anonymous by yourself.  

The fact that they don't provide any privacy is just my first problem. I have a much longer list of problems with them and I can go on and on. But since you seem to be liking JoinMarket, you may want to ask some JoinMarket contributors in private what their feelings are about Samourai. Spoiler alert: Many Bitcoin developers are afraid to publicly speak out about them due to their constant astroturfing and harassment of anyone who would like to look into what they are doing and how: https://nopara73.medium.com/samouraileaks-part-2-harassment-of-bitcoin-developers-fae3019abd2f

[dkbit98]

Wasabi Wallet 2.0 is decades ahead of other privacy solutions in Bitcoin. There's Samourai that's a scam and so aggressive they scare away every newcomer who would like to develop for Bitcoin privacy. That leaves JoinMarket that's coming along nicely, however as a project without funding, its development is much slower.

This is topic about Ledger Live Data Collection, not about Wasabi wallet, please don't go off-topic anymore.
If you want to continue talking about Wasabi and answer many questions you didn't answer so far, better open new topic dedicated to Wasabi only.
Note that I am saying this to nopara73 and to everyone else
Thank you.