The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity

[Snowshow]

tl;dr
Bitcoin and crypto are simple online scams in the form of the systems for creating the illusion of assets(money). The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. Quantity and name are representations of assets,  written on invoices, orders, accounts, deposits, banknots,... when assets such as debt, equity, commodity, real estate... are transferred between people. By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

Video version: https://youtu.be/5k2n3dfK-zI

Long version:
Bitcoin is the name that pops up a lot in the last ten years. You see it on social media, television, newspapers, magazines, books. Your friends talk about it. Colleagues, politicians, businessmen and celebrities as well. People refer to this name as the money of the internet,  digital asset, or gold 2.0. Some view it as a revolution. Others, as freedom.

But here's the news. It's all just an illusion. A mere narrative. Disinformation and misinformation. There's no digital asset, no money no revolution and no freedom. All there is, is a simple online scam. A scam in the form of a system for creating the illusion of digital asset. The system is designed for one purpose and one purpose only. To trick people out of their money. We will now explain how the scam operates. But first some insight.

Whenever an asset is transferred between people, this is represented by quantity and name. These are recorded on invoices, orders, accounts, certificates, banknotes and so on. However, in many cases, people don't even see the asset that is being transferred. They just see quantity and name. For example, if you buy 100 shares of Tesla, you will see only the number 100 and the name TSLA written on brokerage account. Moreover, in some cases, people don't even know that the asset exists. The perfect example of this is fiat money. When you ask an average person what is fiat money they will answer what they see. So, they will answer: "fiat money is numbers on banknotes or deposit accounts."

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor. The holders invested these benefits in banknotes or deposits, that were put in circulation with loans. And that is why, borrowers are forced (via mortgages and other liens) to trade goods, services or labor with the holders, to be able to repay the loans. In that way, borrowers settle the debt to the holders. But given that in the markets, people don't know which sellers are borrowers, they are not even aware that debt was settled to them. They are also not aware, that after such settlement banknotes or deposits went out of circulation. Due to this ignorance, people have misconceptions about fiat money.

With that in mind, now imagine a scammer. They don't own any asset. Which is why they want to get their hands on other people's assets. This scammer knows what we just described. They know that in the transactions, people often don't see the assets that are being transferred, but just numbers and names. So the scammer comes up with an idea. They will set up a system for creating the illusion of asset. The system will write down numbers and in that way people will be deceived that there's an actual quantity behind them. To complete the deception, the name is also needed. So, the scammer does the following. First they produce a name: "Bitcoin". Then, a number: "21 million". With the name, the scammer will create the illusion of asset's existence. And with the number, the illusion of asset's quantity. Then they set up a system with a database. The system will record the units of their imagined quantity next to the virtual addresses of people. Due to anonymity, no one would know how many addresses are associated with the scammer. Prior to seting up the system the scammer wrote a paper. In that paper they declared that whenever a number will be attributed to an address, that means that the address holder received bitcoins in the attributed quantity. Now the scammer has both ingredients needed to create the illusion of asset: quantity and name. Finally, in order to amplify the illusion, the scammer builds into the system a cryptographic protection of numbers. Because obviously, "the asset" needs to be protected. And now, the illusion is complete. All the scammer has to do now is wait for people naive enough to fall for his scam and start trading their real assets for the illusory (nonexistent) one.

Now, you would think, this scam is too obvious. No one will fall for it. Well, you would be wrong. The system that we described is of course not imagined. It is real. The scammer is called Satoshi Nakamoto.  And there is a whole army of naive and gullible people that fell for his scam. Not only that, some were even giving up  $70,000 worth of real assets, for one unit of Satoshi's nonexistent one. Others believe that Satoshi's system could be the start of a bigger revolution than the Internet itself. Books and articles are written about this revolution. Passionate believers organize conferences and events to talk about the system, or to celebrate it as if it is a gift from the sky. People even say that it might be the only thing that can save humanity. It is literally unbelievable, that a simple online scam was elevated nearly to the level of deity.

When other scammers saw how naive people are, and how easy is to trick them out of their money, they also started producing systems for creating the illusion of asset. The illusions, produced by these systems are known by the name "cryptocurrencies". And are now popping up all over the place like mushrooms after rain.

Traditional scams, which created the illusion of lucrative businesses or revolutionary products to trick people out of their money, are obsolete. So the scammers came up with new and sophisticated ones, which create the illusion of revolutionary money or digital assets. It is mind boggling how easy people fall for them. But hey, in was not in vain when Albert Einstein said: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe."

[1713458977]

1713458977

[PrivacyG]

In that case, there is a Fiat Paradox as well.  Back when the Dollar was backed by Gold, you knew there was value behind that bank note.  But now, it is really just a rectangular peice of paper that promises nothing.  And people do sell their houses for it, although in reality it has no real value.  Look how much debt we are in.  Look how much USD has been printed since 2019.  The money in your bank account is just like Bitcoin, but completely centralized.  But USD's circulating supply can be increased or decreased by a governing power.  Bitcoin has no central power to decide core changes.

Then I think value is actually subjective.  If all of a sudden nobody thought USD had value, it will not have value any more.  If all of a sudden everyone thought Bitcoin was worthless, it becomes worthless.  We as a society decide what is valuable and what is not, otherwise precious metals would not become worth less during peaceful times and worth more during panic.  Its value changes depending on a number of conditions.

Is 'getting tricked out of real assets' the right way to go?  I would not say so.  Bitcoin CAN be changed, it CAN have infinite supply, it CAN be used in a bad way but it has no central point of failure and any attempt to wrongfully change it by a perpetrator would immediately be declined and reverted by the rest of the users as soon as they notice they have been deceived.  So even if it CAN do all of that, it does not mean it will.

Since Bitcoin still exists successfully even one decade later and nobody has proven it to be a scam and it has been able to provide real utility and value for a ton of users, I do not see any way we can categorize it as a 'scam' unless we want to fantasize about a parallel universe in which Bitcoin was created that way.  I, for one, do not percieve Satoshi Nakamoto as a deity but simply as a genius human or group of humans who were able to invent something never seen before (except failed previous attempts, of course).

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Snowshow]

In that case, there is a Fiat Paradox as well.  Back when the Dollar was backed by Gold, you knew there was value behind that bank note.  But now, it is really just a rectangular peice of paper that promises nothing.  And people do sell their houses for it, although in reality it has no real value.  Look how much debt we are in.  Look how much USD has been printed since 2019.  The money in your bank account is just like Bitcoin, but completely centralized.  But USD's circulating supply can be increased or decreased by a governing power.  Bitcoin has no central power to decide core changes.

Then I think value is actually subjective.  If all of a sudden nobody thought USD had value, it will not have value any more.  If all of a sudden everyone thought Bitcoin was worthless, it becomes worthless.  We as a society decide what is valuable and what is not, otherwise precious metals would not become worth less during peaceful times and worth more during panic.  Its value changes depending on a number of conditions.

Is 'getting tricked out of real assets' the right way to go?  I would not say so.  Bitcoin CAN be changed, it CAN have infinite supply, it CAN be used in a bad way but it has no central point of failure and any attempt to wrongfully change it by a perpetrator would immediately be declined and reverted by the rest of the users as soon as they notice they have been deceived.  So even if it CAN do all of that, it does not mean it will.

Since Bitcoin still exists successfully even one decade later and nobody has proven it to be a scam and it has been able to provide real utility and value for a ton of users, I do not see any way we can categorize it as a 'scam' unless we want to fantasize about a parallel universe in which Bitcoin was created that way.  I, for one, do not percieve Satoshi Nakamoto as a deity but simply as a genius human or group of humans who were able to invent something never seen before (except failed previous attempts, of course).

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

[NeuroticFish]

Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?
Even now, banks and governments use gold for the job. Why don't they just keep <only> the printed paper if it's so wonderful?

Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

Sour grapes much?

[Snowshow]

Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?
Even now, banks and governments use gold for the job. Why don't they just keep <only> the printed paper if it's so wonderful?

Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

Sour grapes much?

Bitcoin is a name. You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g, you by having number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

[NeuroticFish]

You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g if you have number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, you are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

You just proving that you have no idea at all how Bitcoin works. Sadly, what you've described is a bank account. Now ask yourself the right question...

[Snowshow]

You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g if you have number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, you are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

You just proving that you have no idea at all how Bitcoin works. Sadly, what you've described is a bank account. Now ask yourself the right question...

You're the victim. Try to accept explanations of people that are trying to help you.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Stop. Leave this place. Nobody agrees with you. Your plan to pathetically and obnoxiously enforce your point of view for the gazillionth time has failed. You don't convince anyone that bitcoin is meaningless. It has been repeatedly told you that the way you've understood bitcoin (and perhaps money as a whole?) is false.

You deserve this quote.

Most of these people are not ready to be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.

[Snowshow]

Stop. Leave this place. Nobody agrees with you. Your plan to pathetically and obnoxiously enforce your point of view for the gazillionth time has failed. You don't convince anyone that bitcoin is meaningless. It has been repeatedly told you that the way you've understood bitcoin (and perhaps society as a whole?) is false.

You deserve this quote.

Most of these people are not ready to be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.

Stop your obsession with the people that are trying to help you. Focus on the system that tricks you, in order for the anonymous scammers to get their hands on your asset.

[NeuroticFish]

You're the victim. Try to accept explanations of people that are trying to help you.

So you cannot prove anything by logic, so you decided to ask nicely? 
Since this has been started, I'll also tell you my favorite quote on Bitcoin:

If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

[Synchronice]

But here's the news. It's all just an illusion. A mere narrative. Disinformation and misinformation. There's no digital asset, no money no revolution and no freedom. All there is, is a simple online scam. A scam in the form of a system for creating the illusion of digital asset. The system is designed for one purpose and one purpose only. To trick people out of their money. We will now explain how the scam operates. But first some insight.

It's all just an illusion? Can you argue with me if I say that your consciousness is an illusion created by your brain? If you ask me it's not because I feel when I touch, then have a good deep sleep and tell me about your vivid dreams.

What's your definition of a scam? Governments print tons of money and as a result, prices of everything, including goods and real estate are increasing, while the rate of wage increase is significantly lower. Can you make a conclusion from this? Riches are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, this is the real scam!

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor.

Will it be misconduct if I say: Meaning, when people hold bitcoin, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor.

cut

You don't wanna understand that everything is very simple at the end. Imagine we create an island where only the new generation is born and raised and we teach them that plastic has the value, give them plastic coins and tell that they should work and save plastic coins to get rich and wealthy (and never teach them how to make plastic, just give them limited amount). In this informational vacuum, they'll believe it and work for it.
Maybe it's not a good example to clarify how things work but my main purpose is to make you understand social and psychological value of money.

[Snowshow]

You're the victim. Try to accept explanations of people that are trying to help you.

So you cannot prove anything by logic, so you decided to ask nicely? 
Since this has been started, I'll also tell you my favorite quote on Bitcoin:

If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

I gave you logical arguments. You ignored them all and just responded with ad hominem logical fallacy by saying that I don't understand bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

But here's the news. It's all just an illusion. A mere narrative. Disinformation and misinformation. There's no digital asset, no money no revolution and no freedom. All there is, is a simple online scam. A scam in the form of a system for creating the illusion of digital asset. The system is designed for one purpose and one purpose only. To trick people out of their money. We will now explain how the scam operates. But first some insight.

It's all just an illusion? Can you argue with me if I say that your consciousness is an illusion created by your brain? If you ask me it's not because I feel when I touch, then have a good deep sleep and tell me about your vivid dreams.

What's your definition of a scam? Governments print tons of money and as a result, prices of everything, including goods and real estate are increasing, while the rate of wage increase is significantly lower. Can you make a conclusion from this? Riches are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, this is the real scam!

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor.

Will it be misconduct if I say: Meaning, when people hold bitcoin, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor.

cut

You don't wanna understand that everything is very simple at the end. Imagine we create an island where only the new generation is born and raised and we teach them that plastic has the value, give them plastic coins and tell that they should work and save plastic coins to get rich and wealthy (and never teach them how to make plastic, just give them limited amount). In this informational vacuum, they'll believe it and work for it.
Maybe it's not a good example to clarify how things work but my main purpose is to make you understand social and psychological value of money.

A scam is when the only possible way for you to benefit from your investment is from funds contributed by new investors. A legitimate business is when you can benefit from the asset you invested in, such as debt (fiat/bonds), equity, commodity, real estate, etc.

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

[NeuroticFish]

I gave you logical arguments. You ignored them all and just responded with ad hominem logical fallacy by saying that I don't understand bitcoin.

You described a bank account. You didn't describe how bitcoin works. On bitcoin I don't have to prove an address is mine, I have only to sign transaction if I want to spend.
On bank I have numbers in account. On bitcoin I have inputs that can be traced back to their inception.
So no, it's you who is missing the logic here. And by repeatingly doing that you prove it's you honor your paper deity, while I don't have to add anything.

Have a nice day.

[Snowshow]

I gave you logical arguments. You ignored them all and just responded with ad hominem logical fallacy by saying that I don't understand bitcoin.

You described a bank account. You didn't describe how bitcoin works. On bitcoin I don't have to prove an address is mine, I have only to sign transaction if I want to spend.
On bank I have numbers in account. On bitcoin I have inputs that can be traced back to their inception.
So no, it's you who is missing the logic here. And by repeatingly doing that you prove it's you honor your paper deity, while I don't have to add anything.

Have a nice day.

I provided you evidence that bitcoin is a scam system that creates the illusion of asset. You ignored all the evidences, and started to talk about irrelevant things. You're not even responding to the theme of the topic.

[Rikafip]

Stop. Leave this place. Nobody agrees with you.

Antikvark/Fxsurfer/Antithesis and now under new name Snowshow will keep coming back as long as people keep seriously answering to his drivel. He knows that he won't convince anyone in his bullshit like we all know that we won't change his opinion so what's the point in playing another game of pigeon chess with him? He is obviously ban evading but too bad that forum staff is not willing to ban his last few alts.

His last topic had 17 pages, let's see how many this one gets. Over and out.

[Snowshow]

Stop. Leave this place. Nobody agrees with you.

Antikvark/Fxsurfer/Antithesis and now under new name Snowshow will keep coming back as long as people keep seriously answering to his drivel. He knows that he won't convince anyone in his bullshit like we all know that we won't change his opinion so what's the point in playing another game of pigeon chess with him? He is obviously ban evading but too bad that forum staff is not willing to ban his last few alts.

His last topic had 17 pages, let's see how many this one gets. Over and out.

You have a myriad of topics to discuss the things you're interested in. Why is it that some of you people constantly come to the topics you're not interested in only to start spreading your personal theories on forum users?

[pooya87]

You're the victim. Try to accept explanations of people that are trying to help you.

Oh you are too kind for hepling us out of the kindness of your heart, after reading your full of knowdgle post I feel so much wiser and want to dump all my bitcoins and run away. If you give me your bitcoin address I will send it all to you and free myself of this illusion.

[Snowshow]

You're the victim. Try to accept explanations of people that are trying to help you.

Oh you are too kind for hepling us out of the kindness of your heart, after reading your full of knowdgle post I feel so much wiser and want to dump all my bitcoins and run away. If you give me your bitcoin address I will send it all to you and free myself of this illusion.

You can do whatever you want. I am just telling you how things are.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Didn't read lol!

You'd better try to convince people in forums other than this one. If you think you're going to have much success in this forum that Satoshi started, you're in for a treat.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing you get is that I put you on my ignore list.

[so98nn]

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor. The holders invested these benefits in banknotes or deposits, that were put in circulation with loans. And that is why, borrowers are forced (via mortgages and other liens) to trade goods, services or labor with the holders, to be able to repay the loans.

Bitcoin is mined, miners use the energy, miners pay the electricity bills, miners do the proof of work to embed the transactions on blockchain. Mined coins are used in monetary system for the circulation, that includes trading, lending, staking, exchange of different coins using bitcoin and even withdrawing that money to the bank account.

This is where the bitcoin world is merged / linked with the real world banking system and therefore I see no difference in using bitcoin or fiat?

Though I read through the arguments up here, I just could not resist but had to explain how I look at the bitcoin and how its not a "paradox". Peeps became 10 year old trying to explain themselves the bitcoin bubble which will burst soon but it was never a bubble and things are still pretty perfect.

[PrivacyG]

Bitcoin is a name. You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g, you by having number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

This makes me understand you know nothing about Bitcoin.  All you seem to 'know' comes from a false reality you made up yourself or believe in.  You keep saying Satoshi is scamming us out of our real assets.  Tell me, how does Satoshi steal and benefit from my Bitcoin?

You can do whatever you want. I am just telling you how things are.

So you choose to impose your mindset over ours.  When in history did that ever succeed first of all?  Also, can you imagine how this looks like from our side?

A scam is when the only possible way for you to benefit from your investment is from funds contributed by new investors. A legitimate business is when you can benefit from the asset you invested in, such as debt (fiat/bonds), equity, commodity, real estate, etc.

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Easy.  Bitcoin is what now, $30,000?  Down from what, over $60,000?  Did investors leave when this drop happened?  You have to learn how market offers and demand work.  If you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, you got this wrong all the way.  Read the Whitepaper once, word by word, and you will know it is not.  But you rather choose to believe in a fantasy.

I provided you evidence that bitcoin is a scam system that creates the illusion of asset. You ignored all the evidences, and started to talk about irrelevant things. You're not even responding to the theme of the topic.

Quote the 'evidence', please.  I do not see any, just a conspiracy, unless I missed it all.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Snowshow]

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor. The holders invested these benefits in banknotes or deposits, that were put in circulation with loans. And that is why, borrowers are forced (via mortgages and other liens) to trade goods, services or labor with the holders, to be able to repay the loans.

Bitcoin is mined, miners use the energy, miners pay the electricity bills, miners do the proof of work to embed the transactions on blockchain. Mined coins are used in monetary system for the circulation, that includes trading, lending, staking, exchange of different coins using bitcoin and even withdrawing that money to the bank account.

This is where the bitcoin world is merged / linked with the real world banking system and therefore I see no difference in using bitcoin or fiat?

Though I read through the arguments up here, I just could not resist but had to explain how I look at the bitcoin and how its not a "paradox". Peeps became 10 year old trying to explain themselves the bitcoin bubble which will burst soon but it was never a bubble and things are still pretty perfect.

Sorry, but you're the victim of false narrative. Nothing is "mined". You invest electricity, which is real asset, and then, the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity are attributed to your address in order to create the illusion of some digital asset. But, as I already demonstrated, you own no asset. You, with for example "10" attributed, and someone with "0.0001" attributed are not different in the possession of zeros and ones in the system. And digital assets are of course composed of zeros and ones. It is literally unbelievable how you reject pure facts and keep defending the scammer and their scam.

[coolcoinz]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin is a name. You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g, you by having number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

This makes me understand you know nothing about Bitcoin.  All you seem to 'know' comes from a false reality you made up yourself or believe in.  You keep saying Satoshi is scamming us out of our real assets.  Tell me, how does Satoshi steal and benefit from my Bitcoin?

You can do whatever you want. I am just telling you how things are.

So you choose to impose your mindset over ours.  When in history did that ever succeed first of all?  Also, can you imagine how this looks like from our side?

A scam is when the only possible way for you to benefit from your investment is from funds contributed by new investors. A legitimate business is when you can benefit from the asset you invested in, such as debt (fiat/bonds), equity, commodity, real estate, etc.

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Easy.  Bitcoin is what now, $30,000?  Down from what, over $60,000?  Did investors leave when this drop happened?  You have to learn how market offers and demand work.  If you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, you got this wrong all the way.  Read the Whitepaper once, word by word, and you will know it is not.  But you rather choose to believe in a fantasy.

I provided you evidence that bitcoin is a scam system that creates the illusion of asset. You ignored all the evidences, and started to talk about irrelevant things. You're not even responding to the theme of the topic.

Quote the 'evidence', please.  I do not see any, just a conspiracy, unless I missed it all.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Satoshi benefits from people's real assets that they transferred to him/her in the exchange for the units of his imagined quantity which were attributed to the addresses they initially created. From bitcoin, no one can benefit given this is just a name invented by Satoshi. It's assets from what people benefit. From debt they benefit when the debt is paid. From commodities when they are built into products or utilized as energy. From capital/equity when it is used to produce goods and services. From real estate people benefit by having a place to live or use it as a raw land to farm. Etc. Etc. Satoshi created no asset. He created a name(Bitcoin) and a number (21 million) to use them for creating the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real asset. It is mind boggling how vehemently you people defend that scammer.

As for the evidence, the whole OP is the evidence.

[NotATether]

I am starting to think that these posts are being written by the same person but with different throwaway accounts, but I'll debunk this one too, anyway.

It reminds me of another person who was babbling about quantity a few months ago.

tl;dr
The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. ... By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

[coolcoinz]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave?  

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

What does it mean "fake"? I can see the band playing, I can hear the music, so do all the people present at the concert. Suddenly one guy comes and starts persuading us that there's no concert.
Sorry, but you need to consult your doctor.

I've done numerous transactions with Bitcoin. I was paid for work, I paid other people, I bought stuff online directly, I've bought it indirectly (gift cards), I've exchanged it for various fiat currencies.
You're wasting your time. I'm sure there are groups where you'll make some impact, but not here.

[Snowshow]

I am starting to think that these posts are being written by the same person but with different throwaway accounts, but I'll debunk this one too, anyway.

It reminds me of another person who was babbling about quantity a few months ago.

tl;dr
The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. ... By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

From the Satoshi's number you can benefit like in every scam - only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave?  

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

What does it mean "fake"? I can see the band playing, I can hear the music, so do all the people present at the concert. Suddenly one guy comes and starts persuading us that there's no concert.
Sorry, but you need to consult your doctor.

I've done numerous transactions with Bitcoin. I was paid for work, I paid other people, I bought stuff online directly, I've bought it indirectly (gift cards), I've exchanged it for various fiat currencies.
You're wasting your time. I'm sure there are groups where you'll make some impact, but not here.

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

[coolcoinz]

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

I know you try to ignore the facts, but the concert is taking place since 2009.
When I imagine something, it's only in my mind. When I pay someone and he can buy physical goods with it, there's no imagining anything.
Guess what, when you send a bank transfer, it's also done virtually on a bank's server, just that there's no backup, no blockchain. If the server catches fire, your transaction disappears. When the bank defaults you don't get the money. When a country goes into war and limits withdrawals you don't get the money.

[Snowshow]

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

I know you try to ignore the facts, but the concert is taking place since 2009.
When I imagine something, it's only in my mind. When I pay someone and he can buy physical goods with it, there's no imagining anything.
Guess what, when you send a bank transfer, it's also done virtually on a bank's server, just that there's no backup, no blockchain. If the server catches fire, your transaction disappears. When the bank defaults you don't get the money. When a country goes into war and limits withdrawals you don't get the money.

I am not denying the fact that you're participating in the exchange of the tickets for a concert since 2009. But you're denying the facts that the concret never took place.

And stop with this nonsense about banks. Banks produce debt, evidence it with deposits or banknotes, borrowers then collect goods, services or labour from people with those deposits or banknotes, and finally return goods services or labour back to people via loan repayments. It's a legitimate borrowing business. Creating debt and settling it. It has nothing to do with the Satoshi's scam. So stop with those nonsensical analogies.

[coolcoinz]

It's a legitimate borrowing business.

All fun and games until you get a legitimate Cyprus bailout and find out your money aren't really your property. They were yours for as long as they allowed you to take them.

I am not denying the fact that you're participating in the exchange of the tickets for a concert since 2009. But you're denying the facts that the concret never took place.

The moment tickets become goods, services, entertainment, is the moment the concert takes place. We're both standing at it, just that you have fingers in your ears, trying to tell people you don't hear anything.
This conversation is pointless.

[Snowshow]

It's a legitimate borrowing business.

All fun and games until you get a legitimate Cyprus bailout and find out your money aren't really your property. They were yours for as long as they allowed you to take them.

All property can be destroyed by natural or governmental causes. So, what is your point? What that has to do with this scam?

The moment tickets become goods, services, entertainment, is the moment the concert takes place. We're both standing at it, just you have fingers in your ears, trying to tell people you don't hear anything.
This conversation is pointless.

Tickets can become nothing. Except if you're God and can turn them into wine. All you can do with them is find new suckers who believe the concert will take place. Just like in all scams.

[NotATether]

~
False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

Then you clearly have not studdied how foreign currency exchange works. How about educating yourself before misinforming others.

I have, because I've been in other countries.

Now when one person exchanges one currency for another that is technically buying the first currency using the second currency, or selling the second currency to buy the first currency. The value of the currency being bought is backed by the currency that is being sold, on the basis that it has value.

That's why all governments in the world (except for one*) are holding US Dollars in their central bank reserves, in addition to other priceless items such as gold.  Because thy are giving a value to the US Dollar, and thus ts value backs the value of their own cryptocurrency.

*The eception is the US government itself, whose dollars are backed by, well, nothing, ever since they abandoned the gold standard in the 70s.


You, as a person who seems very knowledgeable in how economies work (otherwise it would make your essay sound ridiculous), must already know something about how modern banking works, and that is Banks do not keep adequate reserves of  their own cash to back the numbers in their bank accounts.

This is called fractional bannking (and it has taken more than one bank to bankruptcy)

Now, it would be absurd to say that the money you have in the bank is written off just because the bank has no assets to back your bank accoount balance with[/b]

But this is not the case, instead your money is backed by the mere assurance from the bank that they will pay you back your money on a later date (It is similar to the US government's dollars being backed by nothing, when some country wants to buy dollars for their central bank).


How this relates to cryptocurrencies: All cryptos are a form of currency (otherwise you would not be launching this rant). that can be bought with  foreign currency and other types of cryptos. However, the value of this crypto can be confidently be stated as being backed by  the foreign currency used to buy it. Why? because the foreign currency stored as  a profit in crypto exchanges (most of it) is the  culmunative value of all the crypto currency that has been bought on that exxchange.

Add this culmunative value of exch exchange, and you get the total value for exch cryptocurrency.

That's why crypto goes up one day and down another day ("like numbers", because behind those "numbers" - i.e. electronic money which you believe (like bank accounts) to be zero). Because behind those "numbers" [actually units of currency] are traders on some exchange selling or buying it on some exchange.

[acroman08]

Welcome to the forum, anti-bitcoin trolls like you who are hell bent to drag bitcoin down pop up from time to time(usually when the price of bitcoin is dropping). anyway, I hope you enjoy your Discussion with our members here in the forum. just so you know you are welcome to come back once you got your fill of trolling and left the forum. 

[Snowshow]

~
False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

Then you clearly have not studdied how foreign currency exchange works. How about educating yourself before misinforming others.

I have, because I've been in other countries.

Now when one person exchanges one currency for another that is technically buying the first currency using the second currency, or selling the second currency to buy the first currency. The value of the currency being bought is backed by the currency that is being sold, on the basis that it has value.

That's why all governments in the world (except for one*) are holding US Dollars in their central bank reserves, in addition to other priceless items such as gold.  Because thy are giving a value to the US Dollar, and thus ts value backs the value of their own cryptocurrency.

*The eception is the US government itself, whose dollars are backed by, well, nothing, ever since they abandoned the gold standard in the 70s.


You, as a person who seems very knowledgeable in how economies work (otherwise it would make your essay sound ridiculous), must already know something about how modern banking works, and that is Banks do not keep adequate reserves of  their own cash to back the numbers in their bank accounts.

This is called fractional bannking (and it has taken more than one bank to bankruptcy)

Now, it would be absurd to say that the money you have in the bank is written off just because the bank has no assets to back your bank accoount balance with[/b]

But this is not the case, instead your money is backed by the mere assurance from the bank that they will pay you back your money on a later date (It is similar to the US government's dollars being backed by nothing, when some country wants to buy dollars for their central bank).


How this relates to cryptocurrencies: All cryptos are a form of currency (otherwise you would not be launching this rant). that can be bought with  foreign currency and other types of cryptos. However, the value of this crypto can be confidently be stated as being backed by  the foreign currency used to buy it. Why? because the foreign currency stored as  a profit in crypto exchanges (most of it) is the  culmunative value of all the crypto currency that has been bought on that exxchange.

Add this culmunative value of exch exchange, and you get the total value for exch cryptocurrency.

That's why crypto goes up one day and down another day ("like numbers", because behind those "numbers" - i.e. electronic money which you believe (like bank accounts) to be zero). Because behind those "numbers" [actually units of currency] are traders on some exchange selling or buying it on some exchange.

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

Now, you can either accept the facts I have just described. Or you can continue to use misconceptions about banks to try to rationalize yourself the scam you're participating in.

[noorman0]

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Why do you always associate bitcoin benefits in nominal terms? And why do you always think bitcoin owners/recipients are investors?

If I'm a shoe store owner who doesn't like bitcoin but sees that most of my customers are bitcoiners, I can adopt it into my store. Does that mean I aim to make nominal benefit with that number? No, I just use the number to attract customers to be more consumptive. No new investors in my store story.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

See? You don't care what other people think. You've told it enough times that you can't imagine a world without debt; without middlemen granting loans, borrowers etc., but this community shows you that this world of free trade and freedom of choice exists. There can be transaction settlement, exchanging, trading without debt. Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.  

As far as I've read, there's completely nothing irrational from NotATether's post, but it's nullified, because it doesn't encroach the way you understand money.

So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt.

Debt isn't a bad thing, by default. Borrowing money can surely have a positive impact, and there should be. Debt redistributes money into the economy, incentivizes people to become productive, works as an investment whether that's from private companies or from the government itself, helps people acquire a house to live etc., but you're naive the least if you deny the downsides. It's an instrument that causes asset bubbles, impinges on the low-income groups due to high interest policy, leads to bankruptcy, causes inflation etc.

[Snowshow]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

See? You don't care what other people think. You've told it enough times that you can't imagine a world without debt; without middlemen granting loans, borrowers etc., but this community shows you that this world of free trade and freedom of choice exists. There can be transaction settlement, exchanging, trading without debt. Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.  

As far as I've read, there's completely nothing irrational from NotATether's post, but it's nullified, because it doesn't encroach the way you understand money.

So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt.

Debt isn't a bad thing, by default. Borrowing money can surely have a positive impact, and there should be. Debt redistributes money into the economy, incentivizes people to become productive, works as an investment whether that's from private companies or from the government itself, helps people acquire a house to live etc., but you're naive the least if you deny the downsides. It's an instrument that causes asset bubbles, impinges on the low-income groups due to high interest policy, leads to bankruptcy, causes inflation etc.

For this discussion the only important thing is that debt is an asset that at the time of settlement benefits those that invested in it. Just like this is the case with all assets - they provide benefit to people.

Here, in the bitcoin scam, the term "asset" is misused to create the illusion that there's an asset in the system. When in reality only numbers are attached to the addresses. When you use the term "transactions" this is also a misuse. Because transactions happen with assets. Attaching numbers to virtual address is not transferring asset. It is creating the illusion of asset quantity. It is scamming people.

[Snowshow]

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Why do you always associate bitcoin benefits in nominal terms? And why do you always think bitcoin owners/recipients are investors?

If I'm a shoe store owner who doesn't like bitcoin but sees that most of my customers are bitcoiners, I can adopt it into my store. Does that mean I aim to make nominal benefit with that number? No, I just use the number to attract customers to be more consumptive. No new investors in my store story.

I don't think anything. I am just describing the scam. People are tricked into the bitcoin scam by claims they are inventing in an asset. But no asset exists in the system. An asset is a resource that provides benefit to those that own it. This resource can be a company which benefits people by producing goods and services. It can be a commodity which benefits people via consumption or as an intermediate good used to produce a final good or finished product. It can be fiat money (debt) which benefits people at debt settlement as explained in the OP. By holding numbers in the Satoshi's system people own no such resource. They own no asset. They cannot benefit from within the system. Which is why they need the contribution of funds from new investors to benefit. That's a textbook definition of a scam. When something like that is presented to the public as an asset that's called scamming people.

[Kakmakr]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Try to understand that digital assets can also have value.... because "Assets can be grouped into two major classes: tangible assets and intangible assets.  Intangible assets include goodwill, copyrights, trademarks, patents, computer programs and financial assets, including financial investments, bonds, and stocks." Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset

A skin for a gun in "Counter Strike" has value to a gamer and for him it is a digital asset..... In Bitcoin the digital asset is the Bitcoin token.  

[Snowshow]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

[Kakmakr]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Ok, it is confirmed... (Look at his post history) ...he is either a Fiat Banking Shill or just a butthurt Troll that lost some money on Crypto currencies and now turns his anger to the Bitcoin community to spread FUD about Bitcoin and Crypto currencies.

People should not even respond to his threads anymore, because you will simply feed this trolls behavior. We (Bitcoin enthusiasts) will never convince people like this to see the real truth, because their agenda to support a failing Fiat financial system is too strong.

You only see these trolls coming out when the Bitcoin (Crypto) prices are dropping.... because their misinformation are more effective when there is doubt and uncertainty and Fear. (FUD)  

[Snowshow]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Ok, it is confirmed... (Look at his post history) ...he is either a Fiat Banking Shill or just a butthurt Troll that lost some money on Crypto currencies and now turns his anger to the Bitcoin community to spread FUD about Bitcoin and Crypto currencies.

People should not even respond to his threads anymore, because you will simply feed this trolls behavior. We (Bitcoin enthusiasts) will never convince people like this to see the real truth, because their agenda to support a failing Fiat financial system is too strong.

You only see these trolls coming out when the Bitcoin (Crypto) prices are dropping.... because their misinformation are more effective when there is doubt and uncertainty and Fear. (FUD)  

You cannot hide the bitcoin scam by putting the finger on forum users. Why is it that you so vehemently defend this scam? I know. Because you need other people's funds to benefit. Within the system there's nothing to benefit from, so you need new suckers to enter the system. But unfortunately the number of those is always limited. The scam will come to its end eventually. Instead of being obsessed with forum users, try to accept that majority of people never benefit from investment scams.

[noorman0]

I don't think anything.

You ignore the outline of my parable which refutes your basic(repeated) argument.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Obviously, you are the typical person who is too comfortable with the conventional centralized financial system that you will not accept the new system. Let's end your trying to convince people here, bitcoin is a scam and we love being scammed by satoshi. period

[Dunamisx]

When other scammers saw how naive people are, and how easy is to trick them out of their money, they also started producing systems for creating the illusion of asset. The illusions, produced by these systems are known by the name "cryptocurrencies". And are now popping up all over the place like mushrooms after rain.

I may chose to believe this to an extent but we need to clarify that not every cryptocurrency aside bitcoin is an illicit project or bad investment, even though we have a good number of the ones in in disguise as a coin but in real sense they utilize the opportunity to safely hide under such in other to suave away user's investment asset along the way, that is why running a background check on any project or crypto coin is very important, knowing who were those behind a specific coin, but in other to save the long and unnecessary stress bitcoin is the best investment over times.

[Snowshow]

I don't think anything.

You ignore the outline of my parable which refutes your basic(repeated) argument.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Obviously, you are the typical person who is too comfortable with the conventional centralized financial system that you will not accept the new system. Let's end your trying to convince people here, bitcoin is a scam and we love being scammed by satoshi. period

You're again obsessed with the forum user. Which is a typical behavior of those who lack rational arguments. I have refuted your misconceptions about fiat money. And demonstrated that people can exist the Satoshi's system only through the contribution from new investors like in all investment scams. Given you cannot refute that, you're engaging in ad hominem attacks.

[TajniAgent]

Yes, BitCON is a huge scam. Maybe not exactly scam, as a pump and dump coordinated pyramid scheme for insiders trading and bot machines along with shiller who need the next idiot to put his cash into crypto synthetically driving the price up so they unload on idiots who believe that story.

BitCON jesus satoshi saw it as - BitCON as a P2P digital cash. But its faulty by definition. By definition cash is anonymous, and there is no transaction fees, cash transactions are never recorded on a public ledger for ever. BitCON on the other hand is all contrary to that. Huge transaction fees, publicly publish transaction records, not anonymous. Dont give me lightning network please. Plus its slow, expensive, spending huuge amounts of electricity. In short terms, completly USELESS. Only use it has is using electricity for nothing, and pyramid pump and dump schemes by insiders to steal peoples money.

Then when the scammers saw that you can no longer sell the bullshit story, then they sell you BitCON is store of value. By definition it fails, since:

Code:

A store of value is essentially an asset, commodity, or currency that can be saved, retrieved, and exchanged in the future without deteriorating in value. In other words, to enter this category, the item acquired should, over time, either be worth the same or more.

If someone buyed bitcon 3 months ago, his wealth deteriorated, so that is a scam also by definition.

[NotATether]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).

[Snowshow]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).

You're playing semantics.
First. Foreign banknotes are evidence of investment in foreign debt. Just like you can invest in foreign companies you can invest in foreign debt. Nothing changes with regards to debt payment.

Second. A currency is s resource. A resource is something that benefits people. Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP. A company is a resource because people benefit from capital or the production of goods and services. Gold is a resource because people benefit from it by usage in dentistry, medicine, electronics, computers, medals, statues, jewellery...

When you enter the Satoshi's system you haven't got a resource that benefits people. Only a number was attached to your address to create the illusion of quantity. That's all. Then you wait for the new investors to bring in the resources from which you can benefit. That's a textbook definition of an investment scam. People are scammed by various narratives that claim that in the system there's a currency or asset. Meaning, that in the system there's a resource from which people can benefit. Bu no one can benefit from within the system. The whole system is a giant fraud that uses name and numbers to create the illusion of currency or asset or money.

[jostorres]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper.

He's making lots of mistakes and fallacies. Emphasis mine.

Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.

People in bitcoin community blindly believe Satoshi like he is some kind of God. He wrote in his paper that his system creates coins and the community accepted that without a question. But all that his system does is attaching numbers to addresses.

You're again talking nonsense. People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory, whatever that means, but to have numbers stored to their address. And they do that because they falsely believe these numbers quantify a digital asset called bitcoin. They believe so, because thay accepted Satoshi's paper at face value. Or because they fall for false narrative and misleading information spread throughout social media.

And further BS from his alt:

Bitcoin has zero cost in creation. It's created by a mere program function.

Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that?

Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP.

But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.

Ad hominem. Theorizing on forum users is trolling.

[Snowshow]

But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.

When debt is produced, it is evidenced with deposits or banknotes, that is, records. When a car is produced by a company, it is evidenced with a record in company's accounting books. So, your statement is like saying: record on car alone, doesn't create car, which is a resource. Yes, records on resources are not resources themselves. They are just info on the existence of resources. That's why if you create a record without a resource this is called counterfeit or fraud. Point of your statement is therefore what? What are you trying to say? Have you finally realized why bitcoin is a fraud?

[hv_]

Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue

No, no and no. Bitcoin was created as a scam where an anonymous person imagined a number - 21 million, then created a system that attributes the units of that number to virtual address of people, and falsely claimed that these units represent some digital coins or asset or money called Bitcoin. But nothing of the sort exists in that person's system. Which is why the address holders can benefit only from funds contributed by new investors - just like in all investment scams.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Point of your statement is therefore what?

That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.

[Snowshow]

Point of your statement is therefore what?

That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.

Every record of an asset is intrinsically worthless and created out of thin air. "100 TSLA" is intrinsically worthless. "100 USD" is intrinsically worthless. "100 BTC" is intrinsically worthless. But, in the first two instances we have the records of assets. And it is these assets what the holders of the records own. In the last instance we have the record of nothing that exists with the purpose to trick people into believing that an actual asset exists behind the record. Which is a fraud. Holders of the record own nothing which is why they need the assets of new investors to save themselves from the fraud - like in all investment frauds. You can keep with your sophistry, but nothing will change in that regard.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.

Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.

[Snowshow]

But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.

Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.

Like I said, you can keep preaching your sophistry, but the facts won't change. No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset. Equity and debt are not promises but assets. A promise is when you say to your girlfriend that you will be faithful. You don't promise a bank that you'll repay the debt. You pledge a collateral, and sign legally enforceable contract.

[BlackHatCoiner]

No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.

But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.

They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.

[Snowshow]

No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.

But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.

They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.

You're lying, again. It is stated in the Bitcoin Whitepaper that the system produces coins or cash or money. Money is an asset. An asset is a resource that benefits people. However, no holder in the bitcoin system can benefit within the system.  Literally all of them need the resources from new investors to benefit. Further, how can they benefit from the Proof-of-Work that you're referring to? Again, they cannot. The whole system is a fraud that attributes the units of the imagined number (21 million) to people's addresses, and then lie to these people that they own an asset in the quantity of attributed units.

[Snowshow]

Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?
Even now, banks and governments use gold for the job. Why don't they just keep <only> the printed paper if it's so wonderful?

Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

Sour grapes much?

I completely agree with your view, in fact the governments themselves don't want bitcoin economy as they know that hyper bitcoinization will take away their powers to manipulate the currency value at will. Fiat holds no value in ittself. it is the value ascribed to it against debts. like gold which gives it it s value

"Bitcoin economy" is an oxymoron.

"The economy is the total of all activities related to the production, sale, distribution, exchange, and consumption of limited resources by a group of people living and operating within it."

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy.  In the fiat monetary system debt is produced and exchanged. Debt is a limited resource because it is based on limited number of collaterals. Comparing the bitcoin scam with fiat system is like comparing Monopoly game with real economy.

[OgNasty]

tl;dr
Bitcoin and crypto are simple online scams in the form of the systems for creating the illusion of assets(money). The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. Quantity and name are representations of assets,  written on invoices, orders, accounts, deposits, banknots,... when assets such as debt, equity, commodity, real estate... are transferred between people. By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

Bitcoin was created to fill a real need.  A cheap trustless global payments network for the internet.  It was needed and the innovation was real.  The blockchain is an excellent idea that I'm sure will eventually be implemented in many areas of our lives.  

However, Bitcoin as it exists today mainly as a, "store of value" isn't something I would have ever gotten involved in.  Sure, you can still use Bitcoin to make global payments.  I use it almost exclusively for all of my global payments (unless I'm forced to do fiat transfers).  The fees are generally still fairly low thanks to Bitcoin being split into two types of payment systems (one day only elitists will use on chain transactions) and for those who want to trust 3rd parties to manage or route their coins they will still be able to use it in the future.  We've gotten pretty far away from what satoshi had planned to change the world though.  I think core maintainers get an A+ for pumping Bitcoin's value, and a D- in keeping with it's principles.  On the plus side, now there will be an ever growing number of blockchains created for specific purposes, which will lead to lots of hacks and losses, but will also keep innovation moving and use cases once again growing.

[StarKay]

The OP failed to factor in the utility of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a solution to a problem caused by centralised financial system that the government created hence it's growing adoption and also it's ever increasing fiat tag.

After your hard labour and then you are rewarded, you now have a central authority telling you how not to spend your money, don't send money to this country, don't pay for this goods, you can't order this service. This is a real life problem that Bitcoin has solved.

Satoshi Nakamoto will forever be a hero for coming up with this technology, being critical of Bitcoin is allowed if the purpose is to improve on it but calling it a scam should be a redline on this forum that should lead to some penalty.

Newbies visit this form everyday and posts like this could be discouraging.

[Anonylz]

Stop your obsession with the people that are trying to help you. Focus on the system that tricks you, in order for the anonymous scammers to get their hands on your asset.

Why don't you let them be, these people clearly don't want to be help and as smart as you claim to be, i expect you to be able to recognize that and watch them wallow in lost when the time comes.
if i were you i wont bother lift a finger to help. just grab a bowl of popcorn and watch the movie unfold. 

[DooMAD]

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy. 

If no resources exist, it wouldn't require energy to store them.

You freely acknowledge something is being stored, ergo you accept it exists.

If something can be measured, it exists.  If something has value, it exists.  The issue is that you can't comprehend the measurements or the value.  The problem lies with you.

[Snowshow]

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy.  

If no resources exist, it wouldn't require energy to store them.

You freely acknowledge something is being stored, ergo you accept it exists.

If something can be measured, it exists.  If something has value, it exists.  The issue is that you can't comprehend the measurements or the value.  The problem lies with you.

The units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million), attributed to online addresses, are stored, not the economic resources. That's why the holders of these units need the resources from new investors to benefit. Otherwise, they are doomed. But ultimately, the holders will be left holding the bag. Just like in every investment scam - the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

[DooMAD]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally? 

[Snowshow]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally?  

Do you have problems with understanding the word: 'ultimately"? Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme. So, ultimately they will be left holding the bag.

[DooMAD]

Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme.

Also wrong.

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

[PrivacyG]

From bitcoin, no one can benefit given this is just a name invented by Satoshi. It's assets from what people benefit. From debt they benefit when the debt is paid. From commodities when they are built into products or utilized as energy. From capital/equity when it is used to produce goods and services. From real estate people benefit by having a place to live or use it as a raw land to farm. Etc. Etc. Satoshi created no asset.

Show me an asset that allows you to move value or, for your theory's sake, 'fake numbers' from me to you, which is now an event verifiable by anyone willing to verify its legitimacy, in a fully decentralized, transparent and uncensored way.

As for the evidence, the whole OP is the evidence.

All I see is a theory.  No proof of anything you say.

From the Satoshi's number you can benefit like in every scam - only if new investors voluntarily enter the system. 

Tell me more about it.  How do I benefit from your entrance in the system?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[BlackHatCoiner]

Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme.

But, you're the only one who sees no resources. You've limited yourself purposefully. I use bitcoin everyday. I purchase stuff with bitcoin; gift cards, servers, other web services, premium features etc., no matter what you think of it, I show you the exact opposite with my actions. And it's not just me. There are thousands of merchants willing to accept it as a currency. All these things demonstrate how incorrect you are.

And that's because it's useful. It provides things you can't otherwise have.

Tell me more about it.  How do I benefit from your entrance in the system?

Don't do him good, that's a meat and drink for him. The moment you enter, demand rises, but supply remains the same.

[arcmetal]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally?  

Do you have problems with understanding the word: 'ultimately"? Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme. So, ultimately they will be left holding the bag.

I have stayed a long time, I think, since around 2011, and I don't feel bad about the bag I am holding.  It does rather well for me. I suspect it'll keep doing well for me. ...  The "resource" that you think does not exist, and that appears to elude and confound you is of bitcoin's "utility". 

Here are some examples:

I have noticed how well others have done with their "bags", and here I mean the people on the bitcoin beach, in El Salvador, or the people in Venezuela, and how it has helped them survive the crushing inflation of their Bolivar.  Or maybe for all of those that were paying high fees for remittances, that can now send bitcoin for pennies, or for a dollar depending on the fee. ... I even heard once that someone (laszlo on May 22, 2010) was able to get a couple of pizzas for some bitcoin.  ... The list of these types of examples, of bitcoin's "utility", of how bitcoin is helping, appears to be growing all the time.

I can tell that you have upgraded your arguments since the last time you were posting here, but these are still falling flat.

It now seems that your catchphrase is that bitcoin is a "scam", but repeating this over and over without a realistic explanation is not going to convince anyone here.

[Snowshow]

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All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme. Economic resource are things from which people can benefit without new investors. For e g. - gift cards. When issued and sold to people, gift cards provide benefit to people at redemption. So, whoever holds a gift card is not required to find a new buyer to benefit from the card. Another example. Debt in the banking system that the holders of banknotes or deposits own. They benefit when that debt is paid, as I already explained in this topic. So again, they don't need to find new buyers to benefit. Capital. From capital people benefit because capital produces goods and services. Again, no new buyers required. Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

However, from the Satoshi's units attributed to online addresses, no one can benefit. Which is why the influx of new investors is needed. Just like in all investment scams. So, try to accept that Satoshi's tricked you, instead of trying to find countless excuses for his scheme.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Why isn't this true for fiat currency, again?

[DooMAD]

All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them.

Except for the part where that's complete and utter horseshit and the real and tangible benefits we have all experienced have been explained to you.  You're just an ignorant fuckwit with zero comprehension.  We tell you repeatedly what the benefits are, yet you simply ignore us and repeat your nonsense claims that it's all entirely fictional because you're too gormless to understand it correctly.

You are the one who has been tricked because you want to defend the system where just about every nation on Earth right now is experiencing massive inflation because the people in charge cannot be trusted to maintain the economy responsibly.  You are the one who is entirely beholden to the decisions made by central banks and governments.  You have no control over your environment.

We are the ones who have made an informed decision to try an alternative to that.  We can opt in or out as we please.  We are in control of our money and, more crucially, we're collectively responsible for our monetary policy.  If we don't like the rules in Bitcoin, we even have the power to fork ourselves off the network and start a brand new currency of our own.  You couldn't dream of having power like that in fiat.  And, once again, some of us are quite happy with our choices, thank you.

You might fool a few gullible newbies, but you're not fooling us.

[PrivacyG]

You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Snowshow]

But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Why isn't this true for fiat currency, again?

It is explained to you a dozen times already in this and previous topic. I won't repeat it again. You are free to think whatever you want.

All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them.

Except for the part where that's complete and utter horseshit and the real and tangible benefits we have all experienced have been explained to you.  You're just an ignorant fuckwit with zero comprehension.  We tell you repeatedly what the benefits are, yet you simply ignore us and repeat your nonsense claims that it's all entirely fictional because you're too gormless to understand it correctly.

You are the one who has been tricked because you want to defend the system where just about every nation on Earth right now is experiencing massive inflation because the people in charge cannot be trusted to maintain the economy responsibly.  You are the one who is entirely beholden to the decisions made by central banks and governments.  You have no control over your environment.

We are the ones who have made an informed decision to try an alternative to that.  We can opt in or out as we please.  We are in control of our money and, more crucially, we're collectively responsible for our monetary policy.  If we don't like the rules in Bitcoin, we even have the power to fork ourselves off the network and start a brand new currency of our own.  You couldn't dream of having power like that in fiat.  And, once again, some of us are quite happy with our choices, thank you.

You might fool a few gullible newbies, but you're not fooling us.

You are fooling yourself. That's why you are so pissed off. You know that you invested economic resources into the scheme, and no such resources exist in the scheme. That's why you desperately need new investors otherwise you are unable to benefit. And that's what pisses you off.

[Snowshow]

You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Translation of the above: "I don't have any other arguments, I desperately need you to shut up, 'cause I know I'm right".

[arcmetal]

You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Here is a take on "new investors" entering a "scheme", as you put it.

Let's imagine we live on an island in the south pacific, that has not been discovered, maybe off the coast of the Pitcairn Islands.  But now we have discovered the rest of the world, and so we wish to join their economy to get stuff we have never seen before.  So apparently the rest of the world tells us on the island that we need "dollars".

We wish to get a satellite phone, and a satellite connected computer, but first we need to get these newly discovered "dollars".  We don't currently have "dollars", but we have lots of coconuts.

We trade some of our coconuts for these "dollars". ... Now we can buy that new satellite phone. ... After trading our coconuts for "dollars", and trading our "dollars" for a new phone, guess what has happened?  ... We have just entered this new "scheme" of "dollars" as a new "investor".

(now just replace every word "dollar" in the comment above with the word "bitcoins", and you'll understand PrivacyG's comment)

[Snowshow]

Translation of the above: "I don't have any other arguments, I desperately need you to shut up, 'cause I know I'm right".

Well, you can say or think whatever you want about me. But people will still be unable to benefit within the Satoshi's system like they are benefiting within the banking system. Just imagine. All that energy spent for mining, all that economic resources invested into the Satoshi's system. The result? The holders have zero economic resources from which they can benefit, which is why they are at the mercy of new investors who voluntarily decide whether or not to enter the system and bring in the economic resources to save the holders. Crazy, isn't it? Instead of acknowledging this important fact, your are rather playing semantics on the forum and engaging in ad hominem attacks. How pathetic is that?

[Snowshow]

You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Here is a take on "new investors" entering a "scheme", as you put it.

Let's imagine we live on an island in the south pacific, that has not been discovered, maybe off the coast of the Pitcairn Islands.  But now we have discovered the rest of the world, and so we wish to join their economy to get stuff we have never seen before.  So apparently the rest of the world tells us on the island that we need "dollars".

We wish to get a satellite phone, and a satellite connected computer, but first we need to get these newly discovered "dollars".  We don't currently have "dollars", but we have lots of coconuts.

We trade some of our coconuts for these "dollars". ... Now we can buy that new satellite phone. ... After trading our coconuts for "dollars", and trading our "dollars" for a new phone, guess what has happened?  ... We have just entered this new "scheme" of "dollars" as a new "investor".

(now just replace every word "dollar" in the comment above with the word "bitcoins", and you'll understand PrivacyG's comment)

Dollar is the name or word for debt. Debt is an economic resource. You can replace words all you like but you can't create economic resources in that way.

[hZti]

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Yes you can benefit from it since it is NOT a storage of wealth like so many idiots in this forum believe, but it is a decentralized currency that you can use to send payments.

[Snowshow]

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Yes you can benefit from it since it is NOT a storage of wealth like so many idiots in this forum believe, but it is a decentralized currency that you can use to send payments.

You're supposed to explain HOW holders can benefit without new buyers - investors, not talk about concepts. Try again. P.S. "A payment" is a new buyer entering the scheme. The question is how holders can benefit without new buyers entering the scheme.

[hZti]

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Yes you can benefit from it since it is NOT a storage of wealth like so many idiots in this forum believe, but it is a decentralized currency that you can use to send payments.

You're supposed to explain HOW holders can benefit without new buyers - investors, not talk about concepts. Try again. P.S. "A payment" is a new buyer entering the scheme. The question is how holders can benefit without new buyers entering the scheme.

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

[Snowshow]

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

But "buying" is still investing or bringing economic resources into the system. I am asking HOW holders can benefit within the system? From their holdings. When someone voluntarily entes the system and bring in the economic resources so that the current holders can benefit, that's not benefiting within the system.

[hZti]

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

But "buying" is still investing or bringing economic resources into the system. I am asking HOW holders can benefit within the system? From their holdings. When someone voluntarily entes the system and bring in the economic resources so that the current holders can benefit, that's not benefiting within the system.

It is simply the definition of a currency. A universal storage of wealth that can be used to be exchanged for goods and services. Tell me how bitcoin is different than other currencies? How can you benefit from the USD without exchange it for goods and services?

[Snowshow]

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

But "buying" is still investing or bringing economic resources into the system. I am asking HOW holders can benefit within the system? From their holdings. When someone voluntarily entes the system and bring in the economic resources so that the current holders can benefit, that's not benefiting within the system.

It is simply the definition of a currency. A universal storage of wealth that can be used to be exchanged for goods and services. Tell me how bitcoin is different than other currencies? How can you benefit from the USD without exchange it for goods and services?

USD is debt. From debt you benefit when debt is paid. I explained this a dozen times on this forum.

So, you're admitting the obvious - the holders are unable to benefit from their holdings, but only from new buyers/investors. Their holdings are then not money/currency/asset, but shares in an investment scam. And that's exactly the point of this topic.

[uchegod-21]

The OP failed to factor in the utility of Bitcoin.

He failed totally, I didn't read all his wall of text because I wasn't prepared for it. I didn't want to read something that will not be useful to me because I have made my own research about bitcoin.
What Op did'nt understand is that value can be created. The laptop we use is a rectangular box but the value in it made it superb. The fiat currency we use is a paper but the value it carry differentiates it from other papers.
Whatever you may think of bitcoin, provided that Satoshi gave it a value and the society has agreed with the value it carry and there is a secured and reputable way to secure the value bitcoin carry, we are not afraid anyday.

[hZti]

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

But "buying" is still investing or bringing economic resources into the system. I am asking HOW holders can benefit within the system? From their holdings. When someone voluntarily entes the system and bring in the economic resources so that the current holders can benefit, that's not benefiting within the system.

It is simply the definition of a currency. A universal storage of wealth that can be used to be exchanged for goods and services. Tell me how bitcoin is different than other currencies? How can you benefit from the USD without exchange it for goods and services?

USD is debt. From debt you benefit when debt is paid. I explained this a dozen times on this forum.

So, you're admitting the obvious - the holders are unable to benefit from their holdings, but only from new buyers/investors. Their holdings are then not money/currency/asset, but shares in an investment scam. And that's exactly the point of this topic.

I think what you are describing in your opening post has one flaw: You describe an asset that is sold to people for their fiat money with no real value behind it in return. This for Bitcoin ist not true, since bitcoins were not sold to people by Satoshi Nakamoto. He only created the network and let people do work (mine) to get the bitcoin. If satoshi would have just sold all coins to people and then left it would be a scam, I can agree with you. This is done by many premined coins but as I said was not done with bitcoin. So in order to get bitcoins you also have to perform work, which makes it in return also debt based. TADA: it is not that different form other currencies, except it is digital.

[Snowshow]

I think what you are describing in your opening post has one flaw: You describe an asset that is sold to people for their fiat money with no real value behind it in return. This for Bitcoin ist not true, since bitcoins were not sold to people by Satoshi Nakamoto. He only created the network and let people do work (mine) to get the bitcoin. If satoshi would have just sold all coins to people and then left it would be a scam, I can agree with you. This is done by many premined coins but as I said was not done with bitcoin. So in order to get bitcoins you also have to perform work, which makes it in return also debt based. TADA: it is not that different form other currencies, except it is digital.

It's a scam in a sense that Satoshi in the Whitepaper claimed that his system produces money. Money is an economic resource from which people can benefit without new buyers or investors. Also, no one knows how many addresses Satoshi has in the system. So he is essentially benefiting from the disinformation written in the Whitepaper. He got real economic resources and left the holders only with units of his imagined number (21 million). Which is why literally all holders need the new buyers or investors to get the resources back. Without them, they are doomed. Hence, a classical investment scam.

[hZti]

I think what you are describing in your opening post has one flaw: You describe an asset that is sold to people for their fiat money with no real value behind it in return. This for Bitcoin ist not true, since bitcoins were not sold to people by Satoshi Nakamoto. He only created the network and let people do work (mine) to get the bitcoin. If satoshi would have just sold all coins to people and then left it would be a scam, I can agree with you. This is done by many premined coins but as I said was not done with bitcoin. So in order to get bitcoins you also have to perform work, which makes it in return also debt based. TADA: it is not that different form other currencies, except it is digital.

It's a scam in a sense that Satoshi in the Whitepaper claimed that his system produces money. Money is an economic resource from which people can benefit without new buyers or investors. Also, no one knows how many addresses Satoshi has in the system. So he is essentially benefiting from the disinformation written in the Whitepaper. He got real economic resources and left the holders only with units of his imagined number (21 million). Which is why literally all holders need the new buyers or investors to get the resources back. Without them, they are doomed. Hence, a classical investment scam.

I'm sorry but you are not understanding bitcoin correctly, since you are assuming that satoshi exchanged bitcoins for fiat money and then left. This is not the case since it is only recorded that he mined two blocks and one of them is unspendable. Meaning he owns 50 BTC in total and those were not spend also. Ofcourse he could have mined more blocks later but everyone could have done this so it is not right what you are saying.
Can you maybe tell what is the reason for you to fight random people on the internet about Bitcoin?

[PrivacyG]

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

First of all, this is getting silly.  First, it is you who is ignoring my point.  You are intentionally doing this because your arguments are becoming less and less valid with each of our posts.  I already answered your question multiple times in my previous replies.

Second, you continue to use the word 'scheme' next to Bitcoin which is more than definitely deception.  It is not a scheme, it is a system.

Back to the rest of your question.  I can send you $100,000 worth of Bitcoin without a third party interfering with our transaction and requesting documents for identification and proof for source of funds.

I can move $1,000,000,000 abroad without making anyone notice that I did.  It is a transaction stored in a public and transparent legder, but pseudonymity makes it so that there is no clear evidence of who I am and with enough privacy and care, I can make it close to impossible with the current knowledge, information and technology to link the transaction to my identity.

I can purchase a ton of goods using Bitcoin directly, at my own will, even by physically shopping and checking out in a similar way to credit card payments.  Only without banks.

I can store information directly on the blockchain.

I can use my own resources and energy to 'generate' or, as we say, mine Bitcoin at my own will.

These are just a few of the things I can do with Bitcoin.  This is how I benefit from it.  Tell me where exactly is the 'new investors' part in any of the five scenarios I have mentioned above.  Exactly, there is not.

If we are talking about price increasing from purchases and decreasing from sales.  That is how ANY asset works.  Offer and demand.  If you think I am benefiting from others who are purchasing Bitcoin and making the price increase, then any other asset in this world is by your definition a scam.  Gold miners are tricking you into believing Gold has value and scamming you out of your real asset: cash.  Because how else would they benefit from Gold if there was no new investor to purchase it?  But wait.  Now the state is tricking you into believing cash actually has value and scamming you out of your real asset.  Because how else would they benefit from cash if there was no new investor to purchase it?  And the list goes on, infinitely.

Now instead of intentionally ignoring all of my previous questions and replying with 'I know best, I do not even care what you are saying anyway', try actually answering them for once, you genius.  Because you always ignore questions but ask yours and want them to be replied to by us.  Either participate in a conversation or keep your monologue and conspiracy theory to yourself.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[hZti]

The problem is that he misunderstood how bitcoins were initially distributed. He thinks that Satoshi sold all the 21 Million BTC to the people here and then disappeared with their fiat money they gave him. But that is not the case since I don't think anyone ever bought a single BTC from satoshi.

[PrivacyG]

The problem is that he misunderstood how bitcoins were initially distributed. He thinks that Satoshi sold all the 21 Million BTC to the people here and then disappeared with their fiat money they gave him. But that is not the case since I don't think anyone ever bought a single BTC from satoshi.

So instead of taking only fifteen minutes of his time to read through a REAL source of information about how Bitcoin works and how it was created and distributed, he chose to invent, write down and even strongly sustain his own fantasy about how Bitcoin is a 'scheme' honored as deity.

Smart.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[DooMAD]

So instead of taking only fifteen minutes of his time to read through a REAL source of information about how Bitcoin works and how it was created and distributed, he chose to invent, write down and even strongly sustain his own fantasy about how Bitcoin is a 'scheme' honored as deity.

Smart.

I think it's more of a cry for help.  The only attention they can get in life is when they troll Internet message boards.  It's the only time anyone notices they even exist.  A sad and desperately lonely attention-seeker.

It wouldn't matter whether they understood it or not, they'll keep lying anyway.  Because that's what provokes the biggest response.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'll have to agree with DooMAD here, the problem is rather psychological. There's no point to continue arguing with him, and as a proverb goes, arguing with a fool proves there are two. PrivacyG, save your breath, what you're saying has been repeatedly told to him in other threads with even more ridiculous titles[1][2][3].

He's not going to read your response; he'll read a few sentences and say the same bullshit again. He must be feeling great he's understood something millions of others don't. But, that isn't enough. He needs to enforce his opinion to others. What a trashy scumbag.

Leave the troll go hungry.


[1] [VIDEO]: Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination
[2] Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People
[3] Bitcoin is a 'two-phased' product, which makes it ponzi/pyramid-like

[evichi]

Society decides what has value and what does not. A piece of stone can be of great value to some people and at the same instant is worthless to other people . When a rectangular piece of paper has value and able to get you a launch or an item, it is because the society decided to make it to have value. The same goes for Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency. cryptocurrency is seen as the future of money and has numerous benefits when compared to fiat. With cryptocurrency, you are in control of your money. You don't need to keep it with a third party.

[Snowshow]

I think what you are describing in your opening post has one flaw: You describe an asset that is sold to people for their fiat money with no real value behind it in return. This for Bitcoin ist not true, since bitcoins were not sold to people by Satoshi Nakamoto. He only created the network and let people do work (mine) to get the bitcoin. If satoshi would have just sold all coins to people and then left it would be a scam, I can agree with you. This is done by many premined coins but as I said was not done with bitcoin. So in order to get bitcoins you also have to perform work, which makes it in return also debt based. TADA: it is not that different form other currencies, except it is digital.

It's a scam in a sense that Satoshi in the Whitepaper claimed that his system produces money. Money is an economic resource from which people can benefit without new buyers or investors. Also, no one knows how many addresses Satoshi has in the system. So he is essentially benefiting from the disinformation written in the Whitepaper. He got real economic resources and left the holders only with units of his imagined number (21 million). Which is why literally all holders need the new buyers or investors to get the resources back. Without them, they are doomed. Hence, a classical investment scam.

I'm sorry but you are not understanding bitcoin correctly, since you are assuming that satoshi exchanged bitcoins for fiat money and then left. This is not the case since it is only recorded that he mined two blocks and one of them is unspendable. Meaning he owns 50 BTC in total and those were not spend also. Ofcourse he could have mined more blocks later but everyone could have done this so it is not right what you are saying.
Can you maybe tell what is the reason for you to fight random people on the internet about Bitcoin?

So, I don't understand Bitcoin because, you know that an anonymous guy has only one address in a system where the address holders are anonymous? Do you realize how nonsensical your statements are?

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

First of all, this is getting silly.  First, it is you who is ignoring my point.  You are intentionally doing this because your arguments are becoming less and less valid with each of our posts.  I already answered your question multiple times in my previous replies.

Second, you continue to use the word 'scheme' next to Bitcoin which is more than definitely deception.  It is not a scheme, it is a system.

Back to the rest of your question.  I can send you $100,000 worth of Bitcoin without a third party interfering with our transaction and requesting documents for identification and proof for source of funds.

I can move $1,000,000,000 abroad without making anyone notice that I did.  It is a transaction stored in a public and transparent legder, but pseudonymity makes it so that there is no clear evidence of who I am and with enough privacy and care, I can make it close to impossible with the current knowledge, information and technology to link the transaction to my identity.

I can purchase a ton of goods using Bitcoin directly, at my own will, even by physically shopping and checking out in a similar way to credit card payments.  Only without banks.

I can store information directly on the blockchain.

I can use my own resources and energy to 'generate' or, as we say, mine Bitcoin at my own will.

These are just a few of the things I can do with Bitcoin.  This is how I benefit from it.  Tell me where exactly is the 'new investors' part in any of the five scenarios I have mentioned above.  Exactly, there is not.

If we are talking about price increasing from purchases and decreasing from sales.  That is how ANY asset works.  Offer and demand.  If you think I am benefiting from others who are purchasing Bitcoin and making the price increase, then any other asset in this world is by your definition a scam.  Gold miners are tricking you into believing Gold has value and scamming you out of your real asset: cash.  Because how else would they benefit from Gold if there was no new investor to purchase it?  But wait.  Now the state is tricking you into believing cash actually has value and scamming you out of your real asset.  Because how else would they benefit from cash if there was no new investor to purchase it?  And the list goes on, infinitely.

Now instead of intentionally ignoring all of my previous questions and replying with 'I know best, I do not even care what you are saying anyway', try actually answering them for once, you genius.  Because you always ignore questions but ask yours and want them to be replied to by us.  Either participate in a conversation or keep your monologue and conspiracy theory to yourself.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

I really don't care about your questions. I only care that you prove me wrong. I simply said that nobody in the system is able to benefit within the system, which means that zero economic resources exist in the system and literally all members of the system require what members of all investment scams require: new investors. Without them they are doomed.

So, you can scream all you like, but you cannot prove me wrong in that way.  

Society decides what has value and what does not. A piece of stone can be of great value to some people and at the same instant is worthless to other people . When a rectangular piece of paper has value and able to get you a launch or an item, it is because the society decided to make it to have value. The same goes for Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency. cryptocurrency is seen as the future of money and has numerous benefits when compared to fiat. With cryptocurrency, you are in control of your money. You don't need to keep it with a third party.

Why then the holders in the Satoshi's system require new buyers or investors? If the thing they own in the system is valuable, why all of them must sell that thing, that is, get something from outside of the system? And then, whoever enters the system, also must exist the system and get something for the outside to be able to benefit. How's that possible if, within the Satoshi's system something valuable exists? Are you people even aware how naive you are?

[hZti]

Whatever your motivation is to keep continue with your statements here, I'm very happy to think of you again in 10 years when your biggest regret will be to spam the forum and not instead mine or buy bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

Whatever your motivation is to keep continue with your statements here, I'm very happy to think of you again in 10 years when your biggest regret will be to spam the forum and not instead mine or buy bitcoin.

Oh, you're able to see the future. Wow.

[hZti]

 

[fullhdpixel]

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

Also, we need to realize that if you have no dollars, then you are getting it from someone else? I mean is that the same logic? Or gold? The person who got in the first, made all the money and the one that got the last will end up with the worst situation?

This ponzi scheme thing is trying to get into everything but we all know that it is not the reality. Sure you could end up with a ponzi scheme somewhere, they are still out there but to call bitcoin a ponzi scheme, that is just a comedy. We get to use it as well, we get to earn it as well, we get to spend it as well. To think just because there are investors, and hence why it must be ponzi to make everyone rich, makes gold a ponzi.

[Snowshow]

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

Also, we need to realize that if you have no dollars, then you are getting it from someone else? I mean is that the same logic? Or gold? The person who got in the first, made all the money and the one that got the last will end up with the worst situation?

This ponzi scheme thing is trying to get into everything but we all know that it is not the reality. Sure you could end up with a ponzi scheme somewhere, they are still out there but to call bitcoin a ponzi scheme, that is just a comedy. We get to use it as well, we get to earn it as well, we get to spend it as well. To think just because there are investors, and hence why it must be ponzi to make everyone rich, makes gold a ponzi.

Well, if Bitcoin system is not a Ponzi scheme than answer how can the holders of Bitcoin benefit without someone entering the system? So, it's pretty simple question. I explained how the borrowers, who are part of banking or fiat currency system, provide goods, services and labour to the holders of fiat currencies. And that's how these holders benefit from within the system, that is, without someone entering into the banking system. Now you tell me how all that army of Bitcoin holders can benefit without someone entering the bitcoin system? These holders preach that Bitcoin is very valuable. They currently pay $30,000 for it. And there are 18 million of those valuable Bitcoins. Meaning, they preach that a lot of value exists in the bitcoin system. So how the holders can benefit from all that value, without someone from the outside bringing in their value?

[FanEagle]

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

Yes you can benefit from it since it is NOT a storage of wealth like so many idiots in this forum believe, but it is a decentralized currency that you can use to send payments.

Calling everyone idiot makes it a bit of a hard thing for anyone to defend you, maybe you should realize that. Have you ever considered that there are so many people who think of it one way, and make money by thinking that way, and you are considering it as just a decentralized currency and not a storage of wealth whereas tens of billions of dollars are stored at it could be a wrong approach?

I am not like you, so I am not going to make it personal, but could there be an approach that you perhaps didn't see? That could be something quite important if you miss that approach and I suggest you to give it another look, maybe you will see something you haven't seen earlier.