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Author Topic: What is the advantages to mine in USA ?  (Read 374 times)
DaveF
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July 13, 2022, 01:51:35 PM
 #21

Side note but important; miners as a rule are on the bottom of the food chain in terms of who gets power:
https://insidebitcoins.com/news/extremely-high-temperatures-in-texas-force-crypto-miners-to-go-offline
Come to Texas to mine....it will be great....unless it gets hot.
I am 100% sure that just about every place is going to do this but it seems to be happening more and more in hotter locations. Businesses get lured into locations with the promise of cheap power / taxes / labor / whatever and when something happens they take the hit. It's easier to tell a mine to shut down then 10000 people to shut off their air conditioners.
-Dave
Those large farms in Texas were brought online fully expecting the cutbacks and as part of their contracts the farms are partly reimbursed by their electric providers for the lost revenue to encourage the farms cutting back when needed. I've made mention several times in the past about the service agreements they have in place and provisions for them cutting back/temporarily shutting down operations to ensure adequate power for the rest of the states consumers.

Not debating that, the problem is the whats and whens and how longs so so speak.
A few really hot summers followed by a few cold winters can change the dynamics a lot vs a few mild years in a row.

Even eliminating that the biggest issues I have been seeing with miners (and sadly a lot of other businesses) is they move to locations on promises of "X" and then "Y" happens and they get "Z"
WAYYYYYY back in time when I was in college a professor said it best and I'm mangling the wording but I think I make the point.

"If you business plan at all involves the words, tax abatement, government subsidies, or any kind of lower rates for any needed materials or services it's not a good business plan"
"Yes many businesses get them and succeed, but for the ones that had the "guaranteed subsidies" changed at the whim of the government or provider or vendor we just hear about the lawsuits from the bankrupt businesses"

It's nice to say that the losses on the mines in Texas are really just socialized losses among the other rate payers. BUT at what point does some other business that may have more employees and more facilities and therefore more clout / power within the region say "So these new miners are getting all these deals, where are ours?" And then the lawsuits and fights begin.

If ERCOT in Texas or the power company in upstate NY wakes up one morning and said "fuck the miners we can make SOOOOO much more money selling to these people" and changes the rules. YES there will be lawsuits and lots of articles in the local papers and local news. Possibly a blurb in the regional news. And after that the only thing that matters is who has the bigger better legal team and more time to fight it out in court.

Since this is about advantages of mining in the USA I will bring it back to the fact that you can move. You miners will not be confiscated, you will not be forced into hiding by the government. But everything else.
It's nice to have, but don't plan on having it forever.

-Dave

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philipma1957
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July 13, 2022, 02:41:28 PM
 #22

Side note but important; miners as a rule are on the bottom of the food chain in terms of who gets power:
https://insidebitcoins.com/news/extremely-high-temperatures-in-texas-force-crypto-miners-to-go-offline
Come to Texas to mine....it will be great....unless it gets hot.
I am 100% sure that just about every place is going to do this but it seems to be happening more and more in hotter locations. Businesses get lured into locations with the promise of cheap power / taxes / labor / whatever and when something happens they take the hit. It's easier to tell a mine to shut down then 10000 people to shut off their air conditioners.
-Dave
Those large farms in Texas were brought online fully expecting the cutbacks and as part of their contracts the farms are partly reimbursed by their electric providers for the lost revenue to encourage the farms cutting back when needed. I've made mention several times in the past about the service agreements they have in place and provisions for them cutting back/temporarily shutting down operations to ensure adequate power for the rest of the states consumers.

Not debating that, the problem is the whats and whens and how longs so so speak.
A few really hot summers followed by a few cold winters can change the dynamics a lot vs a few mild years in a row.

Even eliminating that the biggest issues I have been seeing with miners (and sadly a lot of other businesses) is they move to locations on promises of "X" and then "Y" happens and they get "Z"
WAYYYYYY back in time when I was in college a professor said it best and I'm mangling the wording but I think I make the point.

"If you business plan at all involves the words, tax abatement, government subsidies, or any kind of lower rates for any needed materials or services it's not a good business plan"
"Yes many businesses get them and succeed, but for the ones that had the "guaranteed subsidies" changed at the whim of the government or provider or vendor we just hear about the lawsuits from the bankrupt businesses"

It's nice to say that the losses on the mines in Texas are really just socialized losses among the other rate payers. BUT at what point does some other business that may have more employees and more facilities and therefore more clout / power within the region say "So these new miners are getting all these deals, where are ours?" And then the lawsuits and fights begin.

If ERCOT in Texas or the power company in upstate NY wakes up one morning and said "fuck the miners we can make SOOOOO much more money selling to these people" and changes the rules. YES there will be lawsuits and lots of articles in the local papers and local news. Possibly a blurb in the regional news. And after that the only thing that matters is who has the bigger better legal team and more time to fight it out in court.

Since this is about advantages of mining in the USA I will bring it back to the fact that you can move. You miners will not be confiscated, you will not be forced into hiding by the government. But everything else.
It's nice to have, but don't plan on having it forever.

-Dave

USA mining has some good points, but like you say the fucking legal bs is tough to wade through.

We will have the 280-305kwatt solar array in Clifton which will be about 70-75 kwatts (24/7/365) of 'free' power ready in early Sept this year.

Completely created due to mining coins. But the paper work is endless. And who is to say that the power buyback agreement will stay in place as it is meant to do for next 30 years.


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July 13, 2022, 09:44:53 PM
 #23

<snip>
If ERCOT in Texas or the power company in upstate NY wakes up one morning and said "fuck the miners we can make SOOOOO much more money selling to these people" and changes the rules. YES there will be lawsuits and lots of articles in the local papers and local news. Possibly a blurb in the regional news. And after that the only thing that matters is who has the bigger better legal team and more time to fight it out in court.

Since this is about advantages of mining in the USA I will bring it back to the fact that you can move. You miners will not be confiscated, you will not be forced into hiding by the government. But everything else.
It's nice to have, but don't plan on having it forever.
-Dave
Agreed. Several years ago the hosting companies that were in the Portland OR/Seattle WA found that out the hard way. When Alcoa shut down their aluminum foundries in the areas the local (hydro) power companies had massive amounts of power available with no users so they did great deals -- for a while. Once Canada ran lines to connect that power to the Canadian power grid it was a whole 'nother story and because the miner hosting companies had no long-term contracts in place they were forced to leave or at best massively scale back their operations.

That linked article tells us that Core Scientific and Riot both have taken the cutbacks as a planed-for part of their business which is good. Now just how long their contracts are valid before being up for renegotiation is another story. Hopefully they are set for several years...

2 good things about that:
a.Those companies had already planned for the power cutbacks to be part of expected operations. In the past that was very rare to see and most 'business plans' were based on pie-in-the-sky perfect operations with no surprises so when the proverbial butterfly in South America flapped its wings at the wrong time said companies were seriously boned.

b. It will make for some nice seasonal dips in difficulty Smiley

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