The risk of NOT actually owning your mining hardware.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

4.3 cents here in Oklahoma primarily wind and hydro.

Is this a private deal with a power plant? I don't think you can get below 5 cents on publicly available tariffs in most states.

In the US, odds are that unless you are contracting for over say at least 50MW - and are located very close to one - you are not going to find "private deals with a power plant"...

That said, yes there ARE several (but not many) states that have very very low rates with no 'special deals' needed as long as you meet minimum load requirements and possibly a restriction on your usage when there is a major weather-related event affecting the Grid (think Texas). The huge farms that are moving there throttle back when the power is needed elsewhere and in fact are paid by the Utilities when that happens. How much are they paid? Unknown, probably nowhere enough to make up for lost mining revenue but coupled with lower overall rates certainly enough to cushion the impact of temporarily cutting back their power usage.

Now this one is a mess, I can remember a lot of the topics in which people took the offers from compass mining as a basic starting point for setting their new mining adventure, this is going to hurt probably a lot. But I don't get this:

1-Pass ownership for their miners to Compass mining so that they can liquidate the gears in Russia on their behalf.
2-Contact the Russians directly and deal with your own problem (not recommended by them because of a high risk of losing the gears).

Why not 3, have the gear they've bought shipped to their homes?

Only problem with #3 that I see is logistics and folks being VERY unhappy about having to also pay duties on the miners when they arrive in their country.

All in all there is no clean & easy way out of the mess but then again for a myriad of reasons already covered here and in other threads I sure as hell would NEVER have used Compass -- or ANY other company like them where you have no solid proof of 'your' physical miner even existing. As Mikey has said it is far too easy for a company to contract out the hash rate = to your 'purchase'. A few companies have done that in the past and is a cert bet that others will do it again.

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[stompix]

I can't accuse them of anything without solid proof, however, I can speculate as well. Another point is the fact that they could have delayed responding to the Sanctions, I mean come on!

I don't know, it's my personal bias, it's the bad experiences that people share around but when it comes to mining and mining companies it's always the story of the boy who cried wolf with a serious twist. Every time the villagers came there was no wolf but a wolf pack and when the boy finally yells fox it turns out to be not a fox but still a wolf in disguise. I simply can't erase all this experience that started with mining equipment producers that said one month delay in shipping when they actually were packing their bags as they had no miner, cloud mining companies, etc etc ...etc!

Yeah, they have the excuse, their partner as I understand it's either Bitriver or some subsidiary of them, but man, if that company is under sanctions and you can't deal with them anymore how is it that you can't take your gear out but you can still sell it to them and get money under sanctions! And the thing that pisses me off the most is that although I watch their Twitter account this one got nearly undetected, If it weren't for your topic I wouldn't have known but memes and investments advice and praising themselves how great they are, there is a ton each day.
Their tweets on the days the sanctions-hit bitriver:
https://twitter.com/compass_mining/status/1516457447984148484
https://twitter.com/compass_mining/status/1517195208538140672

To me is like taking a piss on your customers and laughing at why they are wet! /ending rant!

The worse part is that probably not that many will learn the lesson, people in Brazil will still buy IOU checks from a company in the US run by a guy who has Canadian citizenship that has a deal in Russia through a Switzerland intermediary, and when they ask what they can do to get their money...what a surprise!

All in all there is no clean & easy way out of the mess but then again for a myriad of reasons already covered here and in other threads I sure as hell would NEVER have used Compass -- or ANY other company like them where you have no solid proof of 'your' physical miner even existing. As Mikey has said it is far too easy for a company to contract out the hash rate = to your 'purchase'. A few companies have done that in the past and is a cert bet that others will do it again.

Even if they put a GPS tracker on them I wouldn't touch such a contract, I remember a story (but I forgot their name), a company that hosted a few miners, allowed the people to visit the "data center" and suddenly the "partner" decided to load them on a truck and poff! 100 miners gone!
Not your keys locking doors to the miners on your property, not your miners!

[Coinfarm ventures]

And see your used cards drop to half the price and the income by 90% if Butterrin farts in his sleep and decides to push PoS tomorrow.

I understand the risk. I think ETH mining will probably exist for 6 more months or at least until a price downturn. If my video cards fall to 60% of MSRP, I would still end up making a profit over those six months after tax considerations. I would've earned more in mining profit than the after-tax loss in video card value.

That said, yes there ARE several (but not many) states that have very very low rates with no 'special deals' needed as long as you meet minimum load requirements and possibly a restriction on your usage when there is a major weather-related event affecting the Grid (think Texas). The huge farms that are moving there throttle back when the power is needed elsewhere and in fact are paid by the Utilities when that happens. How much are they paid? Unknown, probably nowhere enough to make up for lost mining revenue but coupled with lower overall rates certainly enough to cushion the impact of temporarily cutting back their power usage.

I have done detailed research on index power pricing for Texas. The minimum load requirement is 50 kW for the day-ahead or realtime ERCOT index. Unless one gets to the 50 MW or so level like you said, there are no refunds for shutting down. That requires a private contract.

Without a private contract, the only benefit of shutting down is avoiding peak energy prices (> 15¢) during peak load for 1 hour every day. The less efficient the miners are, the lower power cost at which they pay for the power, so the more often they should be turned off.

With an efficiency of 40W/TH and 1MW of load, my calculations based on the past 12 months of data show that the most profitable scheme is 96% uptime. The all-in power price comes out to 5.1-5.5¢ in the ONCOR territory on primary service. The utility charges would be 1.5¢ while the energy price would average to 3.5-4¢. You can go as low as 3¢ for really old equipment, but uptime would be < 50%, so that's not profitable.

Mega-miners like Whitstone, who build farms near power plants or substations, can get 3-5¢ with their special deals of course. Building their own substation already cuts 0.5-1¢ off the tariff, then let's assume they get a 0.5¢ special discount. So it's not hard to see how they get below 4¢. But on the other hand, that electric equipment is expensive and the ROI might be longer than if they just bought more ASICs and paid a higher power rate.

[DaveF]

And it looks like they defaulted on some other stuff too:
https://twitter.com/DynamicsMining/status/1541262827096358912

It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out since it's US based you can't just as easily vanish as in other parts of the world.
But, much like not your keys not your coins. How about not your miners not your hash.

-Dave

[stompix]

Something interesting in that scan, one of their facilities has failed to make any payments after February 1st. That's
- before the invasion of Ukraine and sanctions hitting
- the price was averaging 40k with 26T difficulty, so at least twice the revenue

If they've started losing money and were unable to pay in those conditions, what were they thinking in the first place?

Meanwhile:
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/06/28/compass-mining-ceo-and-cfo-resign-amid-setbacks-and-disappointments/

"Compass Mining was created to make mining easy and accessible," said the statement. "The company recognizes that there have been multiple setbacks and disappointments that have detracted from that objective. Through this restructuring, the company is wholly focused on regaining the goodwill of the company’s stakeholders and the community, as well as delivering on the company’s mission of providing best-in-class service for miners of all sizes."

I know too well what this statement means, that you should grab every office supply you can get your hand on and run as you won't see any more paychecks from the "restructured" entity.

[ANSEL_2.0]

This story sounds familiar to me because in my country some people are doing the same, electricity is very bad here and only very limited cities have stable power so people from the bad cities will buy asic miners and send it down to those in the good cities, they always give some percentage to the asic holders per month.

[DaveF]

I know too well what this statement means, that you should grab every office supply you can get your hand on and run as you won't see any more paychecks from the "restructured" entity.

The Simpsons said it so well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P2DwJuhIAE
Been poking around and it seems they stopped paying bills regularly when BTC started dropping from the ATH.
So either they did poor planning and could not make enough money to survive, or it was always setup to be a scam from the beginning.

Guess we will have to see if & how it plays out in court.

-Dave

[spectre71]

4.3 cents here in Oklahoma primarily wind and hydro.

Is this a private deal with a power plant? I don't think you can get below 5 cents on publicly available tariffs in most states.

It's what i pay right now... there a few dingle berries on the bill but that's it.

[mikeywith]

Something interesting in that scan, one of their facilities has failed to make any payments after February 1st. That's
- before the invasion of Ukraine and sanctions hitting
- the price was averaging 40k with 26T difficulty, so at least twice the revenue

If they've started losing money and were unable to pay in those conditions, what were they thinking in the first place?

I saw a tweet (which was deleted later on ) by the company that compass owns the power bills to, long story short, Compass had a floating power rate with the supplier but they gave fixed rates to miners, they did not see the huge price increase of energy coming, I think their contract with the clients was in the 5 cents range, and recently the supplier charged them more like 10 cents per kWh, so they were paying more than they could afford, they have also spent a huge chunk of money which they received from clients on building a new facility rather than paying the power bills.

I don't think they planned to exit scam from the get-go, they just got greedy and took a very risky gamble which backfired on them, in their first failure they blamed the sanctions on Russia, now, all this mess is happening on the other side of the planet and war is a few thousand miles apart, just goes out to show how mining is bloody risky, and then you see someone brag about how a 2 year ROI on some gear is perfect and it's like no other business on planet earth, just spend 15k on a gear ran by a reckless host like Compass-mining and you will become rich in no time.

[Maidak]

A few days ago, one of the largest host providers 'Compass Mining' was hit by U.S sanctions against Russia (this is not a political discussion, I will report any off-topic).

Compas is a U.S based company that sells mining gear with hosting services included, thousands of people overpaid (around 13k) for a miner, when the war started, they sent out emails telling their clients not to worry and don't rush to move their miners and that they "Compass" can handle the situation if needs handling.

A few days ago, they sent out emails telling their clients that the new sanctions require them to stop dealing with the Russian host and the clients have two options.

1-Pass ownership for their miners to Compass mining so that they can liquidate the gears in Russia on their behalf.
2-Contact the Russians directly and deal with your own problem (not recommended by them because of a high risk of losing the gears).

Today, someone reported that they will get 4.5k for the gear he bought for 13k (probably an S19 or M30) although that isn't likely because s19s brand new go for 7k range, these are used miners that MUST sell fast, and where? in a heavily sanctioned country, so only some Russian whale may buy them, so my guess is, not even 4.5k is possible.

The moral of the story: having someone else host your gear is very risky even if the company is based in your country and you think they can be highly trusted, it's not about Russia, it could be anywhere else, you can't control the outcome, you may never know when you might be forced to pass ownership of your miners and hope the host can sell your mining gears for whatever they can, and you won't be able to reject the offer regardless of how much your gear is actually worth.

So use a S-Corporation LLC ? play with openlaw.io a little bit ? Then let someone build the mining farm and go solo mine some shiii?

[pestonj]

I think with the current rates of cryptos and increased electricity people will be backing off to start mining

[goldkingcoiner]

I think you are completely correct when you say there is risk in not actually owning your mining hardware. But I also think that same principle of risk goes for everything else which you do not completely own. Just look at what happens when you leave your Bitcoin on the wrong exchange and they close up shop and never give you your Bitcoin back. Furthermore when it comes to mining, you are depending on the people who sold you the miners not to have included some kind of malware or spyware in the miners. And that the people who built the miners did not use defective chip parts and so on...

So what can really be said for ownership? Is anything really "ours"? Or do we just decrease risks without ever getting rid of the risks themselves?

[mikeywith]

Furthermore when it comes to mining, you are depending on the people who sold you the miners not to have included some kind of malware or spyware in the miners. And that the people who built the miners did not use defective chip parts and so on...

Ok, that makes sense to some degree, but then even if we were to assume that the miner manufacturer would go that far to kill their own business, it still does not justify adding more risks to an already risky business model, it's like crossing the traffic light, even when it's green on your side, there is still a risk of hitting another car, that doesn't make it equally as bad as crossing a red light, the degree of risk of both cases is very different.

[wndsnb]

I think you are completely correct when you say there is risk in not actually owning your mining hardware. But I also think that same principle of risk goes for everything else which you do not completely own. Just look at what happens when you leave your Bitcoin on the wrong exchange and they close up shop and never give you your Bitcoin back. Furthermore when it comes to mining, you are depending on the people who sold you the miners not to have included some kind of malware or spyware in the miners. And that the people who built the miners did not use defective chip parts and so on...

There is risk for everything, the thing to be concerned with is how much risk. And the risk of getting screwed by cloud mining is way way way larger than ending up with some flaky gear or getting stuck with hacked firmware.

Also, the risk from your two examples can be nearly eliminated with a few precautions.

If you buy used gear, reflash all of it with the latest firmware on an isolated network before putting it online.

As for defective chips etc., .... just don't buy Bitmain. Problem solved  .

[QuoteColo_Sean]

Been saying it forever! Own your hardware!

I have 5 S19 miners that I own and am looking to host.

Does anyone on this thread have any hosting locations that they could recommend?

I'd appreciate it.