What's stopping companies making an actual space heater bitcoin miner for home?

[nullama]

Every time I read something about a bitcoin miner being a space heater it ends up being either a joke, or a vaporware.

Is there anything fundamentally wrong for making this?, I would be happy to buy one that looked good and wasn't very noisy.

For example, have a look at this great little space heater:



It looks good, produces nice heat, and it's not crazy loud or annoying at all. It has 2 modes, low(750W) and high(1500W). It's a great little machine.

Now, for home miners, look at something like the Apollo BTC:



It also looks good, produces nice heat, and it's not crazy loud or annoying at all. It has 3 modes, ranging from around 100W to 300W or so generating about 2-3TH/s. It's a great little machine.

Why hasn't anyone made a great looking space heater with something like that?

You could make basically something like the Vornado, but internally instead of just having a simple heating element, you would have something like 10 times what the Apollo has. There's enough room to do that.

It would run nice and quiet, produce enough heat, look great, consume about 1000W-2000W or so(configurable) and generate around 20TH/s. It would be a great little space heating machine that gives you a few sats while running it.

My only guess is that it would be too expensive, but I'm not sure about that really...

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[mikeywith]

You could make basically something like the Vornado, but internally instead of just having a simple heating element, you would have something like 10 times what the Apollo has. There's enough room to do that.

It would run nice and quiet, produce enough heat, look great, consume about 1000W-2000W or so(configurable) and generate around 20TH/s. It would be a great little space heating machine that gives you a few sats while running it.

My only guess is that it would be too expensive, but I'm not sure about that really...

Mining gears manufacturers make more, better and easier money when selling to industrial-scale miners, they don't even make those loud 1200-1500W gears anymore, it's all 3kw and above now, they know that mining is no more a home thing, and only large farms will afford to buy a dozen miners each, so give them what they want, a large farm rather manages 10000 gears of 3.5kw than 30000 of 1200w gears, also the manufacturer rather deal with 10,000 possible warranty claims, support, and shipment that dealing with three times the number.

So the majority of buyers are happy with these loud gears since they don't mine at home, the people that make them are even happier, why bother making a small miner? this will cause them many problems, 10k space heater miners will be bought by 10k people (maybe half the number of they are lucky), so instead of dealing with 1 client that can place a single order of 10k miners, you will need to deal 10k or 5k clients, many of which don't understand a damn thing about mining or/and how to set these little miners up.

Also, manufacturers are bottlenecked by chips supply, labor and time, so if you have 1 million chips, 100 engs, and 3 months, it makes a lot more sense to build something you have already built, you have clients that have already PAID upfront and a thing that is easier to build, why would you go out of your way to satisfy the average joe who wants to heat his bedroom while mining some sats? nobody is going to do that.

But even if someone else was going to do what you suggest, how would they exactly cool 1000W-2000W without moving enough air? and to do that you will end up using "load fans", the setup you are talking about is limited by the chip efficiency, with the current efficiency we have, any hashrate close to 20th will be in the 1200w range if using something like  BM1397, and then about 600w if using something like BM1398BB but will be extremely costly.

Maybe someone can modify the Apollo miner to give it a better look, maybe put double the chips to get 4-6th and improve the cooling, that might work, but again, will cost an arm and a leg to make, I think the best thing home miners can do for now would be to buy a few Apollo miners if they aren't happy with just one for a space heater.

[philipma1957]

Having modded tons of different loud miners into quiet miners that will heat a home no one will buy an expensive space heater miner when they can mod a miner.

Also pcs with two gpus can be quiet. they mine btc indirectly.

[nullama]

Having modded tons of different loud miners into quiet miners that will heat a home no one will buy an expensive space heater miner when they can mod a miner.

Also pcs with two gpus can be quiet. they mine btc indirectly.

Yeah, absolutely right. Most experienced miners would be able to do this by tinkering with the devices themselves. There's no market for it really.

And having a custom built PC for heating/mining could be a great idea as you can also use it when not mining for many other purposes.

For example this enclosure for a PC would be actually perfect, and very similar to the space heater I had in mind:

[philipma1957]

Having modded tons of different loud miners into quiet miners that will heat a home no one will buy an expensive space heater miner when they can mod a miner.

Also pcs with two gpus can be quiet. they mine btc indirectly.

Yeah, absolutely right. Most experienced miners would be able to do this by tinkering with the devices themselves. There's no market for it really.

And having a custom built PC for heating/mining could be a great idea as you can also use it when not mining for many other purposes.

For example this enclosure for a PC would be actually perfect, and very similar to the space heater I had in mind:

I have that rig in white. with this card

https://www.lenovo.com/us/lenovopro/en/p/accessories-and-software/graphics-cards/graphics_cards/4x61e26089?

[stompix]

My only guess is that it would be too expensive, but I'm not sure about that really...

Yes, it is, you can get the Vornado for $150 and the Apollo for $899.99, let's assume 1000W running for 6 hours a day for 6 months at 20cents/kwh for the heater and you have an energy bill of 200$ each year, but you paid in an advance for nearly 4 years. Let's assume you will keep the Apollo nonstop for heating purposes and you've got 18$ a month ignoring power.
So, why would anyone bother with these, especially since as years pass your machine will be less and less efficient compared to the newer models?

also the manufacturer rather deal with 10,000 possible warranty claims, support, and shipment that dealing with three times the number.

Spot on, this is common everywhere and this is why in some cases manufacturers of goods do not even sell directly to the consumer, they unload all this to resellers and let them deal with a mob of shoppers that will probably encounter every single problem in the universe. One tiny fraction for the profit and you can cut a lot of personnel in support and a lot in accounting, you won't be faced with tens of failed payments, chargeback, and everything else.

But even if someone else was going to do what you suggest, how would they exactly cool 1000W-2000W without moving enough air? and to do that you will end up using "load fans",

You can't without using air but you can reduce the noise by playing with the numbers of chips and their settings, of course, this would end with a mining machine mining at 1/3 of its capacity and not being a lot cheaper either. I just check my emergency air heater, it's rated 1500W and 50DB, and I bet the chips would melt at the temperature that the ceramic plate inside is heated.

[mikeywith]

You can't without using air but you can reduce the noise by playing with the numbers of chips and their settings,

hmm, I don't think the number of chips is relevant to cooling, see I am not a thermodynamics expert by any means, but my understanding is that heat is just a form of energy, so when "electrical energy" passes through the chips of the miner it will convert to " heat energy" of the same amount, so a 1000watts electrical energy will always create a 1000 joule regardless of how that  "electrical energy" is being utilized.

You are right about using more efficient chips at the best efficiency you can squeeze of them, but that will only allow you to get more hashrate for the same amount of heat, but consuming 2000w will always generate 2000j worth of heat, now it's up to you if you want to move the heat away or keep it inside the miner to get some siclon sauce, but you can't possibly cool a 2000w miner without noisy fans.

I believe by using the best noise to airflow ratio fans on any miner, you can't sleep in the same room with a miner that pulls anything above 600-700w, ok maybe add an extra 100-150w if you are a heavy sleeper but that's all about it, sleeping next to a 2000w miner is just close to impossible.

[goldkingcoiner]

Well, its a nice idea but I think the main reason why miners want to cool their maschines is to keep it running efficiently and fast. Because as they heat up that can have an effect on the performance. That is not optimal for heating a room anyway. One effect that people who buy "gamer laptops" do not understand. Heat degrades electrical components. Although this becomes an optimal solution for people who live in very cold areas e.g Siberia and have many miners... Just as long the miners don't overheat at their specific room temperature requirements.

[Coinfarm ventures]

Bitmain already tried to produce the Antminer R4, but it wasn't very popular. Way back in 2013, the very first Bitcoin ASICs were from Butterfly Labs and they were quiet. Then we had Gridseeds for LTC/DOGE which used 50-100w each.

I think most people who home mine will buy GPU rigs without even considering a Bitcoin ASIC. If they're mining anyway, why not buy the equipment with the highest profit-to-power ratio?

[philipma1957]

Bitmain already tried to produce the Antminer R4, but it wasn't very popular. Way back in 2013, the very first Bitcoin ASICs were from Butterfly Labs and they were quiet. Then we had Gridseeds for LTC/DOGE which used 50-100w each.

I think most people who home mine will buy GPU rigs without even considering a Bitcoin ASIC. If they're mining anyway, why not buy the equipment with the highest profit-to-power ratio?

This is spot on.

I got the apollo when it first came out and it is the only asic I am running in my home non stop.

I do run a ton of gpus in my home even now in the upcoming summer.

Why is that

 one quite quiet
two they still turn a profit at my summer power rate of 17 cents and 3 for cooling and it is  20 cents a kwatt. I burn 50 kwatts in mining each day so 0.20 x 50 = 10 usd in power cost

earnings are around 19 dollars.

if I ran a pair s17s set to 958 watts it would burn  about 10-11 and do 80 th with vnish firmware.

80th earns  10-11 bucks after the development fees.

so a bit louder and maybe break even with the s17s or

quiet and make say 7-8 bucks a day with the gpus with 17+3. = 20 cent summer in home power.

[Coinfarm ventures]

quiet and make say 7-8 bucks a day with the gpus with 17+3. = 20 cent summer in home power.

I am very happy to be moving to a region with 9-10 cent residential power and 5-6 cent commercial power in one month, instead of the insane 18 cent residential/11 cent commercial rates here. The only problem with summer mining is the heat, since every single day is a 90+ degree day over there. 100 degree days happen 2-3 times a month, which is when I would have to shut down.

That's why I will wait until the fall to expand, especially because of PoS. I will only buy video cards after PoS happens.

[stompix]

hmm, I don't think the number of chips is relevant to cooling, see I am not a thermodynamics expert by any means, but my understanding is that heat is just a form of energy, so when "electrical energy" passes through the chips of the miner it will convert to " heat energy" of the same amount, so a 1000watts electrical energy will always create a 1000 joule regardless of how that  "electrical energy" is being utilized.

You are right about using more efficient chips at the best efficiency you can squeeze of them, but that will only allow you to get more hashrate for the same amount of heat, but consuming 2000w will always generate 2000j worth of heat, now it's up to you if you want to move the heat away or keep it inside the miner to get some siclon sauce, but you can't possibly cool a 2000w miner without noisy fans.

Of course, if you push 1000w in any kind of system you will get the same amount of heat but I had the impression that when it comes to heat generation and transfer you could play with sizes, having chips further part larger heatsinks and more boards, rather than concentrating the heat source you could spread it out wider, so instead of a 15x15x35 miner you could go for the size of an air convertor, overall the same hashrate, the same heat transfer but done over a larger area, thus the reducing airspeed needed and the noise.
100x10W sources would be the same as 10x100W but spread over a 1x1m wall heater they would be easier to cool with normal speed fans.

[sidehack]

Yep, exactly. The issue isn't total amount of heat but heat density. It's going to take a particular volume flow of air to clear a certain amount of heat from the unit, so if you increase the volume of the unit you decrease the linear flow rate of the required volume of air. Slower air means slower fans means quieter fans.

Another component of this is reducing the length of the flow path, as the exhaust end will be cooled with air already warmed by every heat source between it and the inlet. The S7 and S9 had trouble with roasting boards due to a 9" flow path. Spondoolies rack gear was even worse, with about 30" flow paths. With the S15 and onward, Bitmain shifted to short wide paths over long narrow paths, more like 6 inches, and with larger heatsinks in the hotter regions to increase the rate of thermal conduction into already hot air. The R4, specifically designed for quiet operation, had an airflow path of about two inches.

Resistive electric space heaters tend to be small because the heat-generating materials (usually basically a length of wire) are able to operate at extremely high temperatures, so the heat density of the machine is allowed to be very high. A fairly quiet fan can still do the job with heating because any air moving through will gain a substantial amount of heat, given that the goal is to pull *some* heat out of the element, not try to keep it operating below a semiconductor-survivable temperature.

Bitcoin miners generating the same amount of heat as a consumer space heater will need enough airflow to keep the chips operating at least below 100C. Ideally, even lower, as with CMOS technology there's a positive temperature coefficient for power use: as temperature increases, the power required to maintain a particular switching speed also increases. So even for a given voltage setpoint and target hashrate, as a miner heats up, it'll draw more power, causing it to heat up further, until an equilibrium is reached or failure occurs. In order to maximize profitability, the chips should be kept as cool as possible to optimize hashes per unit power.

The best way to optimize hashes per unit power is to operate the chip at a minimum stable setpoint - low volt, low speed. But this means low hashrate, and low power, per chip. In order to meet hashrate specs, or heat generation specs, it's required to use a whole mess of chips. This helps retain low density and therefore quiet airflow, but it also means a very high initial cost and a larger device that may not be trivial to unobtrusively integrate into a room.

So the design of the device will be a trade-off between the lowest initial cost (fewest chips) versus the highest operating profit (highest efficiency), coupled with convenience (lowest physical volume) versus comfort (quietest airflow). That's a lot of factors to try and optimize simultaneously.

[stompix]

Yep, exactly. The issue isn't total amount of heat but heat density. It's going to take a particular volume flow of air to clear a certain amount of heat from the unit, so if you increase the volume of the unit you decrease the linear flow rate of the required volume of air. Slower air means slower fans means quieter fans.

Yeah, this is what I was aiming at, in my opinion, a "miningheater" would definitely not look like a miner and far more likely as a radiant panel.

Rather than trying to cram all of it into some small box that will make a lot of noise you could simply go for wall placements
I know hotmine tried something like this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5152874.0
from what I understand it was completely passive even at 700w.

Large heatsinks, as you said, designed and placed perfectly so that they would release heat on the exterior, not on others, the ability to replace those chips when they get highly inefficient, capacity of turning it to different levels of heat generation as nobody wants a constant 2000W blowing on their wall,  and far more important in my view, lower initial cost, which as we speak probably are impossible to realize, I don't think anyone would sell you chips that they can put in a miner and sell for $7000 at a price that would be at under the normal heating bill for 5 years.

This helps retain low density and therefore quiet airflow, but it also means a very high initial cost and a larger device that may not be trivial to unobtrusively integrate into a room.

I just wonder, has anyone tried to approximate the cost of a complete passive miner, or if it would be possible at all?

[philipma1957]

hmm, I don't think the number of chips is relevant to cooling, see I am not a thermodynamics expert by any means, but my understanding is that heat is just a form of energy, so when "electrical energy" passes through the chips of the miner it will convert to " heat energy" of the same amount, so a 1000watts electrical energy will always create a 1000 joule regardless of how that  "electrical energy" is being utilized.

You are right about using more efficient chips at the best efficiency you can squeeze of them, but that will only allow you to get more hashrate for the same amount of heat, but consuming 2000w will always generate 2000j worth of heat, now it's up to you if you want to move the heat away or keep it inside the miner to get some siclon sauce, but you can't possibly cool a 2000w miner without noisy fans.

Of course, if you push 1000w in any kind of system you will get the same amount of heat but I had the impression that when it comes to heat generation and transfer you could play with sizes, having chips further part larger heatsinks and more boards, rather than concentrating the heat source you could spread it out wider, so instead of a 15x15x35 miner you could go for the size of an air convertor, overall the same hashrate, the same heat transfer but done over a larger area, thus the reducing airspeed needed and the noise.
100x10W sources would be the same as 10x100W but spread over a 1x1m wall heater they would be easier to cool with normal speed fans.

you can run three one board s9s in three rooms. clock them to 3 th each use 1 fan per machine with brains.

you would have three heaters using 270 watts. or 810 x 24 = say 20 kwatts . they are quiet.

so in the winter my 14 cent power and the benefit of the heat means they cost me 2 bucks a day . and earn 9 x 12 = 1.08 net loss of
92 cents. but if you need the space heaters and were running 3 space heaters on low you power cost is zero.

If I had more time and energy I would look into running a one board s15 or a one board s17.

I mostly do gpus in the house as gpus earn more $$ per watt and can be quiet.

[OgNasty]

I think the problem for me would be what do you do with your space heater once it becomes worthless for mining?  With graphics cards you have a strong market of computer users and gamers that will buy pretty much any GPU you can find, so there's always another angle at resale.  I doubt you'd be able to find someone willing to pay for a subpar space heater that doubles as a non-profitable mining device.  

So to answer your question I would say that competition from GPUs is a good reason why a Bitcoin mining space heater would never work.  It would be a very small use case for someone who would want one of them.  Maybe people with free electricity that live somewhere cold and don't own a computer?  I'm guessing that's a pretty limited market for a Bitcoin space heater miner (what Bitcoiner doesn't own a computer?).

[philipma1957]

I think the problem for me would be what do you do with your space heater once it becomes worthless for mining?  With graphics cards you have a strong market of computer users and gamers that will buy pretty much any GPU you can find, so there's always another angle at resale.  I doubt you'd be able to find someone willing to pay for a subpar space heater that doubles as a non-profitable mining device.  

So to answer your question I would say that competition from GPUs is a good reason why a Bitcoin mining space heater would never work.  It would be a very small use case for someone who would want one of them.  Maybe people with free electricity that live somewhere cold and don't own a computer?  I'm guessing that's a pretty limited market for a Bitcoin space heater miner (what Bitcoiner doesn't own a computer?).

Well in a college dorm a one board s9 set to 3th would run for free. And is very cheap to do.

burns 270- 300 watts and since a dorm is basically free power  why not?

[mikeywith]

I had the impression that when it comes to heat generation and transfer you could play with sizes, having chips further part larger heatsinks and more boards, rather than concentrating the heat source you could spread it out wider, so instead of a 15x15x35 miner you could go for the size of an air convertor, overall the same hashrate, the same heat transfer but done over a larger area, thus the reducing airspeed needed and the noise.
100x10W sources would be the same as 10x100W but spread over a 1x1m wall heater they would be easier to cool with normal speed fans.

Ya in that case you are 100% correct, the only issue would be the size and the cost of the miner, which I believe could be worse than the noise issue, I think sidehacks  sums it up pretty nicely by saying

So the design of the device will be a trade-off between the lowest initial cost (fewest chips) versus the highest operating profit (highest efficiency), coupled with convenience (lowest physical volume) versus comfort (quietest airflow). That's a lot of factors to try and optimize simultaneously.

Keep in mind, that you are going to do all that knowing fair well that the number of such miners you are going to sell is going to be a fraction of the number you could sell if all you cared about was the cost to hashrate ratio.

Well in a college dorm a one board s9 set to 3th would run for free. And is very cheap to do.

burns 270- 300 watts and since a dorm is basically free power  why not?

I would imagine that in a college dorm power will be both free and limited, thus utilizing every bit of free energy would be a wise move, I mean 3th of Sha256 makes only dust, besides it won't be so cheap to buy, and the ROI will be instantly high, 35 cents a day isn't worth it, that person could save for a good GPU.

Most modern GPUs make over a dollar a day, they can use those GPUs for gaming, study, and design, even when they leave college, the GPU will still be somehow usable, I mean an RX 470 bought 7 years back can still run some solid games, do a bit of rendering, sell for somehow a good price, there are many people that would still use and buy that card, but not so many people who would buy an antminer S5 as far as I know.


I am not saying that having an ASIC miner run as a space heater is the worst idea in the world, but it only makes sense if you mod your own gear as phill does, I mean imagine you have an S9 with 1 or 2 dead hash boards, selling it for $100 will mean listing on eBay, shipping, dealing with all kind of annoying buyers/scammers, maybe even some tax-related matter, you don't have time for all that, mod the gear, make it run quiet, turn it on in the winter to make some sats, a brilliant idea.

That VS, paying $2000 for a good-looking factory-made quiet miner that makes you 50 cents a day, not so brilliant idea.

[CochnocherCrypto]

This is ironic.... I, more or less, had this same thought! My gas bill triples in the winter months (New England) so I decided to get two birds stoned at once.

Can't post pictures - but you can take a look at my Apollo setup here! https://imgur.com/a/PpSKJ0i

 I put it next to my gaming setup so I don't need to run up my gas bill in the winter. I have 4 120mm fans mounted to the rear of the "kitchen shelves" I set them up on and when it's really cold during the winter, I crank them up and it keeps me nice n' toasty!

[nullama]

This is ironic.... I, more or less, had this same thought! My gas bill triples in the winter months (New England) so I decided to get two birds stoned at once.

Can't post pictures - but you can take a look at my Apollo setup here!







 I put it next to my gaming setup so I don't need to run up my gas bill in the winter. I have 4 120mm fans mounted to the rear of the "kitchen shelves" I set them up on and when it's really cold during the winter, I crank them up and it keeps me nice n' toasty!

Quoting for photos to show up here.

Hey, I recognized this place from the other thread!, you have compac fs as well 

The Apollos and the Compac Fs are the best home miners at the moment, not sure which one would make a better heater though