[Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges

[BlackHatCoiner]

Yes, but Bitcoin base protocol didn't change that much since the beginning, compared to all other shitcoins that change in very drastic way.

Sounds good.

Privacy is obviously not optional for privacy based applications

Privacy is optional in the sense that you can selectively reveal your activity. I mean, nobody (protocols included) can force you to remain private; it's something you take responsibility upon.

Instead of using all the different hoops, different wallets, mixers, coinjoins, etc I would much more prefer to use private transactions by default.

Me too. But, apparently, most do care trading off scalability and core changes in the protocol for privacy by default.

Tell the average crypto guy to use layer 2 for privacy and he won't have a clue what you are talking about.

As long as those who're interested in both learning and preserving their privacy are able to setup a node, I'm fine. That's what it takes to have nearly-zero transaction costs in an instant and private fashion.

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[o_e_l_e_o]

Exactly, but this was slow gradual process and they offered benefits and incentives to make people switch using mostly digital fiat money.

As with all things privacy related. People are happy to let Amazon and Google record every single word that is spoken inside their house, provided it means they can play a song without having to press like 3 buttons on their phone. They will of course be happy to transition away from cash if it means some 1% reward on their spending.

People have always been happy to trade their privacy for the slightest convenience. This is why we need both education as well as privacy enforcement at the protocol level.

But the main difference is of course that this taint is only used to catch the real bad guy, and not to blame anyone who received the money later on.

Which everyone seems to understand without a second though when it comes to fiat, but for some reason when it comes to bitcoin people start defending the ridiculous privacy invasion and stealing of coins which is practiced by centralized exchanges. I've never understood why, other than they just mindlessly by in to the government propaganda without question.

[dkbit98]

People have always been happy to trade their privacy for the slightest convenience. This is why we need both education as well as privacy enforcement at the protocol level.

Yes, until you end up in a system like you have in China, paying with your face biometrics, can't move anywhere without some silly digital ID, can't leave China even if you want.
Everything is tracked and controlled, so you end up with lot's of people committing suicide jumping out of windows because they can't live like this anymore.
This scenario is not so far from happening in other parts of the world, and it happen gradually in China.

[BlackHatCoiner]

This scenario is not so far from happening in other parts of the world

This scenario did happen during the pandemic, and I'm sure this tyrannic behavior is here to stay, globally.

In my country, certain employees of the private and public sector were forced to do the vaccine[1] and reveal the corresponded certificate whenever they entered a closed room. Later, it was compulsory to do the same for open places, like cafeterias. Then, the elders were given the choices to either do the vaccine or pay a €100 fine for each month they weren't "prudent".

I presume next up is repealing of cash, introduction of social credit score, reduction of non-green energy usage, transition from actual reality to virtual reality etc., all of which happen at the expense of our liberty.

[1] https://www.kodiko.gr/nomothesia/document/737234/nomos-4820-2021 (Law 4820/2021)

[tadamichi]

People have always been happy to trade their privacy for the slightest convenience. This is why we need both education as well as privacy enforcement at the protocol level.

Yes, until you end up in a system like you have in China, paying with your face biometrics, can't move anywhere without some silly digital ID, can't leave China even if you want.
Everything is tracked and controlled, so you end up with lot's of people committing suicide jumping out of windows because they can't live like this anymore.
This scenario is not so far from happening in other parts of the world, and it happen gradually in China.

*waits for franky to explain us, how absolute compliance is true freedom, that mass surveillance doesn’t apply to conformists and that victims of tyranny just didn’t read the guidelines well enough and should take their tinfoil hats off.*

I’ll probably never understand how people stay so ignorant about these issues, maybe they fall for the illusion that it can never hit them individually, until it happens.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yes, until you end up in a system like you have in China, paying with your face biometrics, can't move anywhere without some silly digital ID, can't leave China even if you want.

I mean, in the West already all your movements are tracked by the handy GPS device that 99% of the population carry with them at all times, and all your purchases are tracked through your debit/credit cards, online accounts, store cards, and so on. But as above, people get some tiny convenience and so are willing to pay the price.

I’ll probably never understand how people stay so ignorant about these issues, maybe they fall for the illusion that it can never hit them individually, until it happens.

Perhaps they think that by simping for the government then the government might leave them alone.

[cryptosize]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions

^ Keep this phrase in your mind! It's very, very relevant these days.

I'm not saying all socialists/communists are bad guys, some are just idealists (useful idiots, I would say) who envision a utopia (more like a sci-fi dystopia/techno-feudalism according to Great Reset folks)...

Way upper in the hierarchy there are bad guys (Klaus Schwab and whatnot): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

Be careful what you wish for... there might be unintended negative consequences!

I’ll probably never understand how people stay so ignorant about these issues, maybe they fall for the illusion that it can never hit them individually, until it happens.

Modern people are like cute little dogs (tamed animals). Totally harmless.

Ancient people were more like wolves (untamed animals). Very dangerous.

Domestication is a thing on Homo Sapiens too...

And guess what? Tyrants love this process. Who wants a revolution? Who wants to lose power?

Perhaps they think that by simping for the government then the government might leave them alone.

OnlyFeds™

[dkbit98]

I mean, in the West already all your movements are tracked by the handy GPS device that 99% of the population carry with them at all times, and all your purchases are tracked through your debit/credit cards, online accounts, store cards, and so on. But as above, people get some tiny convenience and so are willing to pay the price.

Yeah I know, but you can still opt-out for some things, you can use dumb phone, or install graphene os in android phone, and you can still use cash in many places.
Things in China are next level craziness, and there is no way you can opt-out or even escape their country if you don't like this changes.
Lot of Chinese people escaped to Vietnam and from there to other countries, but now they put extra guards and massive barb wires or borders like in concentration camps.
Not to mention that Bitcoin is fully banned in only few countries in the world and China is one of them, you can still use it but be ready to go in jail if they catch you.
So almost everything is ''tainted'' in China because their government say so.  

[goldkingcoiner]

I think it would be a good idea to have a wallet which warns you when you are about to transfer coin to an address owned by one of these taint-scam freaks. We should destroy their business model at the root and use their own tactic against them. I think every wallet should have them on their "blacklist".

The most prudent option would be to avoid centralization all together and never put your coins in a third party wallet, but people seem to really enjoy all the diverse altcoins which exchanges have to offer.

This is a people's war against the government. Lets not let them intimidate us with their lapdogs.

[LoyceV]

I think it would be a good idea to have a wallet which warns you when you are about to transfer coin to an address owned by one of these taint-scam freaks.

That won't work: there's no way to know who owns an unused Bitcoin address. And I don't think this is a feature that belongs in a wallet: a wallet should do what I tell it to do, without complaining.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think it would be a good idea to have a wallet which warns you when you are about to transfer coin to an address owned by one of these taint-scam freaks.

Two things:

• You can't know the owner of an unused address, as Loyce rightly points out.
• You shouldn't, because that's like tainting taint supporters. We're not like them. We recognize each coin and address equal, regardless of where they come from.

The root of all evil is lack of education. You don't solve tainting with software. You solve it with reaction, and people won't react if they're not educated enough to acknowledge the benefits of doing this collectively.

[o_e_l_e_o]

And I don't think this is a feature that belongs in a wallet: a wallet should do what I tell it to do, without complaining.

Agreed. As attractive as it might seem at first to "blacklist the blacklisters", then you just run in to the exact same problem again: Who determines what should go on our "good" blacklist? We simply loop full circle and end up back at square one, with a centralized entity deciding where we can and cannot send our coins. Just because it is a centralized entity we happen to agree with (for now!) is irrelevant. Giving anyone or any entity the power to enforce a blacklist is against the ethos of decentralization and self ownership.

We should destroy their business model at the root

The way to do this is to just stop using them. As I've said before, if every single customer of Coinbase withdrew all their funds tomorrow and stopped using their platform in a mass protest against taint, Coinbase would have changed their rules by tomorrow and would be lobbying governments and going to court to fight against privacy invasion and oppression by the end of the week. But since people continue to play by their made up rules and continue to hand over money to them, they don't care.

[dkbit98]

I think it would be a good idea to have a wallet which warns you when you are about to transfer coin to an address owned by one of these taint-scam freaks. We should destroy their business model at the root and use their own tactic against them. I think every wallet should have them on their "blacklist".

It sounds to me that you want to create one more centralized taint blacklisting service, and you want to clean the mud with adding more mud on top.
There is no need for some special wallet alert when you know you are sending coins to wallet centralized exchanges is always a risk.
Simple solution is not to use services or exchanges that openly support this taint trend, and switch to Bisq and p2p trading.

[n0nce]

The root of all evil is lack of education. You don't solve tainting with software. You solve it with reaction, and people won't react if they're not educated enough to acknowledge the benefits of doing this collectively.

Regarding education...

The most prudent option would be to avoid centralization all together and never put your coins in a third party wallet, but people seem to really enjoy all the diverse altcoins which exchanges have to offer.

... and people using centralized services to buy altcoins - I think it's very important to reiterate that decentralized and / or trustless crypto exchanges do exist.

I just made a quick forum search and found this thread, but maybe there are other / better ones that collect decentralized exchanges.

Personally, I can recommend Bisq and Robosats, as well as https://boltz.exchange/.

[DooMAD]

I still can't tell if the decision for these services to enforce taint is because the regulators are pressuring them to, or because it's an ideological stance.  If the pressure is coming from regulators, then they are placing companies in an impossible position. 

I don't know if the rules are similar elsewhere, but in the UK, for example, any business regulated by the FCA (Financial Services Authority) is required to maintain a log of all formal complaints where, from the customer's point of view, the customer has suffered 'financial loss', 'material distress' or 'material inconvenience'.  Companies then have to submit this log to the FCA on a regular basis.  So if any customer has legitimately obtained BTC which inadvertently happens to be on some arbitrary blacklist and are being denied service, they have done nothing wrong.  From their perspective, they are definitely now suffering from financial loss, because someone is claiming their BTC is now worthless when it isn't.  As a result, they're likely also suffering from distress and inconvenience.  Regulators would be engaging in staggering double standards if they are the ones placing innocent customers in this position, but forcing companies to handle the resulting complaints.

[Lordsilvabtc]

The accountability centralized exchanges has for the government makes it seems so unfavorable to most of us, who are advocating for decentralized system, the purpose of Bitcoin has been core at most times and interpreted different, Thereby holding people to ransome at one stage in life

Looking at the above list, there's no doubt Binance Exchange seems to be the worst of them all, just my opinion and my experience, Once a decree is made by government, Binance immediately takes action against traders in their eco system, which doesn't look good to a serial traders like my self

Boycott those exchanges would have taught them a huge lesson, but then some people still feels entangled with them hence they can not step, and search out a better favorable system, it's no longer a new how Binance worked with various Government agencies to inflict pains amongst their ecosystem, good example of this can be found in this cases https://www.thecable.ng/binance-restricts-281-nigerian-crypto-accounts-to-prevent-fraud/amp

I do honestly think that most of those projects or companies, Mostly centralized agencies advocating for privacy protection, ain't really private at all, rather they use that word to attract us and then deal mercilessly with those who makes use of their services, I advice we stage on guard. And be extremely careful with those exchanges, in order to have a secured data, Without our information being exposed out there...

[LoyceV]

it's no longer a new how Binance worked with various Government agencies to inflict pains amongst their ecosystem, good example of this can be found in this cases https://www.thecable.ng/binance-restricts-281-nigerian-crypto-accounts-to-prevent-fraud/amp

You can't expect Binance to not follow government regulations. It doesn't look like these cases are related to "tainted Bitcoins", it looks like they were flagged for other reasons. Nigerian scammers have quite a reputation on the internet,  and your link shows many of the accounts were blocked at the request of international law enforcement.

As I put it earlier:

Note that this isn't about exchanges freezing funds owned by drug dealers, that's understandable. It's about freezing funds from the bar where the drug dealer bought his coffee.

In this case, I don't think it's the bar owner who got his account frozen.

[LoyceV]

You can add Thormixer to the list of taint proclaiming services:

The platform runs a scoring procedure for each incoming coin so to check its reliability and purchase it for its reserves. The service liaises with crypto stock exchanges and controls the money inflow around the clock – if the algorithm detects a shortfall it blasts notification messages to investors and quickly tops up the reserves. Coins with dark history are never let in.

[n0nce]

Update July 2023: Added new mixing platform [banned mixer], thanks to Loyce for bringing it up.

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[banned mixer] Mixer

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'Coins with dark history are never let in.'

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Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458437.msg62501094#msg62501094

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Some quotes for archiving purposes:

The platform runs a scoring procedure for each incoming coin so to check its reliability

The service liaises with crypto stock exchanges

Coins with dark history are never let in.

It's funny to me how first they claim they only allow coins without a 'dark history' ([insert usual mantra of: taint does not exist, all coins are equal, Bitcoin is worthless otherwise, no definition of clean or dirty is given, ...]).
While shortly after, they claim their service 'cleans the track record of people's coins':

The algorithm carries out multi-layered cleansing that achieves a clean track record for your coins.

If coins are already 'clean', there is no reason to 'clean their track record', right? Some people really try to sell a product without understanding that their whole concept makes no sense..

'I sell washing machines that only clean already clean clothes! Please give me your money!'

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I thought Wasabi and their coordinator were the only "privacy-focused" (yeah right) service that had blacklisting and restrictions like that, and now we can add Thormixer to that list. Why do I have the feeling that this is going to become a norm in the future? So-called selective privacy if we believe you deserve it, but we will never tell you why you don't deserve it, and will update our rules as time goes by.