Anyone here from Germany? What exactly are your electricity costs?

[LoyceV]

I think you missed the point about storage, you can store hydrogen just as you store natural gas, it can be turned into liquid as LNG, it can be stored in pressure tanks it can even be stored in salt caverns.

I had to look it up, and LNG is a lot colder than I expected (-162 ^oC). But Liquid hydrogen gets much closer to absolute zero. There's already a shortage of LNG capacity, and it takes years to expand. Pressure tanks will work, but at the same pressure, you can store less energy (because the molecule is much smaller) than methane. Underground storage could be interesting, maybe it can even be pumped into empty natural gas fields.

And there you have it, use that energy to produce hydrogen, rather than throwing it away or letting that sunlight go to waste as it heats the roofs when you don't need it

I don't think there's an economically viable option right now, since it happens only a few hours per year.

in the Netherlands I think you actually have few options left, it's not like you can build a pump storage dam anywhere to store energy.

We use Norway for that

Of course, there is Groningen..but...

Politics
There's also Nord Stream 2.

[1714468363]

1714468363

[TheGreatPython]

Hydrogen has one advantage, it can be generated from excess energy on the grid

True, but to do that, you'll need much more hydrogen generating capacity, and much more solar/wind farms. And still, that doesn't cover the energy needs in winter.

I think you missed the point about storage, you can store hydrogen just as you store natural gas, it can be turned into liquid as LNG, it can be stored in pressure tanks it can even be stored in salt caverns. Or if you have the energy to spare you can simply transform it into methane gas, it's like one of easiest chemical reaction in the world, especially if you're in a pinch and you already burn coal.

What people do not realize is that we do not have the infrastructure for continuing to improve and benefit the most out of renewable energy. I mean sure there are people who are working their best, but we haven't done that globally yet and still pay oil companies tax brakes and such to keep it going.

Let’s face it, they are making tens of billions of dollars in profit while everyone else in the entire world suffers, it is the biggest crisis we have right now and they INCREASED their profit. All in all, more renewable energy and less oil usage will make sure that the world will never have to go through this situation and building an infrastructure to navigate into it will help a lot.

[stompix]

Of course, there is Groningen..but...

Politics
There's also Nord Stream 2.

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.
As for Nord Stream 2, yeah there is NS2 but so is Bucha, err I almost said Putten, and if you're at analogies moment then let me tell you that Switzerland is right now a bit of Chamberlain, how did these politics of concessions and neutrality work out for you last time?

[LoyceV]

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

[DrBeer]

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

It is from these "drops" that the exit path is built. See what the EU is doing now
1. Reducing gas consumption by 15% by the end of the year.
2. This applies to all countries. Do you know what's important here? The fact that only some countries, or rather their industry, is highly dependent (more than 30%) on gas from Russia. It also means that countries that consume 15% or less of Russian gas will also reduce gas consumption.
And that means what? That's right - there will be a surplus of gas of non-Russian origin.
3. Real dependence, or rather a noticeably negative situation in only a few countries. These are countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Hungary. Are you familiar with this list?
The rest of the countries, or rather their rulers, did not sell themselves to the Kremlin ghouls, and did not make their country dependent on the idiotic tricks of the petty under-Fuhrer from the Kremlin. With other countries, in this vile type, the gas terror did not pass, they easily abandoned the "blood gas" and sent terrorist suppliers to hell.

As a result: Therefore, a step-by-step, by 2-3-5% reduction, over time, will allow us to completely abandon supplies from Russia. Unfortunately, to the same Germany it is extremely difficult to immediately refuse gas supplies from Russia - most of their industry is tied precisely to the supply of Russian gas. This is about 40% of all purchased gas. Germany buys 60% from other suppliers.

[zasad@]

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

It is from these "drops" that the exit path is built. See what the EU is doing now
1. Reducing gas consumption by 15% by the end of the year.
2. This applies to all countries. Do you know what's important here? The fact that only some countries, or rather their industry, is highly dependent (more than 30%) on gas from Russia. It also means that countries that consume 15% or less of Russian gas will also reduce gas consumption.
And that means what? That's right - there will be a surplus of gas of non-Russian origin.
3. Real dependence, or rather a noticeably negative situation in only a few countries. These are countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Hungary. Are you familiar with this list?
The rest of the countries, or rather their rulers, did not sell themselves to the Kremlin ghouls, and did not make their country dependent on the idiotic tricks of the petty under-Fuhrer from the Kremlin. With other countries, in this vile type, the gas terror did not pass, they easily abandoned the "blood gas" and sent terrorist suppliers to hell.

As a result: Therefore, a step-by-step, by 2-3-5% reduction, over time, will allow us to completely abandon supplies from Russia. Unfortunately, to the same Germany it is extremely difficult to immediately refuse gas supplies from Russia - most of their industry is tied precisely to the supply of Russian gas. This is about 40% of all purchased gas. Germany buys 60% from other suppliers.

Europe is Germany and France. Italy is the number 2 debtor after Greece.
Why are the USA and Russia great countries? Because they are not dependent on other countries in all major respects.

If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries.

But in Europe it's not fashionable, they don't want to get dirty and be safe. Therefore, green energy is in fashion there.
And this energy is not enough for production.

A politician should do what the voters want, not what is important for the country. No need to blame the Kremlin for the troubles of Europe.
Europeans are to blame for this themselves.
____
In Russia, a massive program of gasification of the entire country is now underway in order to increase gas consumption. There are a lot of gas filling stations and there are funding programs for filling gasoline cars with gas.
Prices for gas, petrol and electricity have fallen in Russia.
Thanks for the sanctions.

[LeGaulois]

Absurdity at the best

USA and Russia are "great countries" because they're not relying on other country

Well, excuse us Europeans if we don't have petrol or gas underground. That's how the world is but you can try to send a support ticket to God
Secondly, About the USA

but despite this, they have remained net energy importers overall from 1953 to 2018; their dependency rate peaked at 30.1% in 2005, then declined rapidly to 3.6% in 2018 thanks to the drop in consumption caused by relocation and the 2008 crisis

You suggest to France build nuclear power plants. Jesus Christ, google it before, we're probably the leader worldwide with the nuclear plants.
And something you should be aware of before commenting. France buys only 15% of its gas from foreign countries. Russia is not the only seller on the marketplace. Our reserves are 100% full, and we replaced Russia is we want to buy more

If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries

you have limited knowledge about the energy industry in Europe, you're probably just repeating what you watched on tv

I'm not going to read your shit anymore. You've done enough shitposting here and there

[be.open]

You suggest to France build nuclear power plants. Jesus Christ, google it before, we're probably the leader worldwide with the nuclear plants.
And something you should be aware of before commenting. France buys only 15% of its gas from foreign countries. Russia is not the only seller on the marketplace. Our reserves are 100% full, and we replaced Russia is we want to buy more

France made an impressive breakthrough in nuclear power after the oil crisis in the 1970s. Almost half a century has passed since then, and the current state of nuclear energy in France is far from optimal - many old reactors that have already exhausted their resources (several of them need to be decommissioned immediately or as soon as possible), loss of influence in Africa (in particular in Niger, from where France imports uranium) and, most importantly, a dramatic loss of engineering competencies (read the history of the construction of the Olkiluoto-3 nuclear power plant in Finland, this is the epic fiasco of AREVA). French nuclear power is dead, or in need of a deep reset.

[DrBeer]

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

It is from these "drops" that the exit path is built. See what the EU is doing now
1. Reducing gas consumption by 15% by the end of the year.
2. This applies to all countries. Do you know what's important here? The fact that only some countries, or rather their industry, is highly dependent (more than 30%) on gas from Russia. It also means that countries that consume 15% or less of Russian gas will also reduce gas consumption.
And that means what? That's right - there will be a surplus of gas of non-Russian origin.
3. Real dependence, or rather a noticeably negative situation in only a few countries. These are countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Hungary. Are you familiar with this list?
The rest of the countries, or rather their rulers, did not sell themselves to the Kremlin ghouls, and did not make their country dependent on the idiotic tricks of the petty under-Fuhrer from the Kremlin. With other countries, in this vile type, the gas terror did not pass, they easily abandoned the "blood gas" and sent terrorist suppliers to hell.

As a result: Therefore, a step-by-step, by 2-3-5% reduction, over time, will allow us to completely abandon supplies from Russia. Unfortunately, to the same Germany it is extremely difficult to immediately refuse gas supplies from Russia - most of their industry is tied precisely to the supply of Russian gas. This is about 40% of all purchased gas. Germany buys 60% from other suppliers.

Europe is Germany and France. Italy is the number 2 debtor after Greece.
Why are the USA and Russia great countries? Because they are not dependent on other countries in all major respects.

If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries.

But in Europe it's not fashionable, they don't want to get dirty and be safe. Therefore, green energy is in fashion there.
And this energy is not enough for production.

A politician should do what the voters want, not what is important for the country. No need to blame the Kremlin for the troubles of Europe.
Europeans are to blame for this themselves.
____
In Russia, a massive program of gasification of the entire country is now underway in order to increase gas consumption. There are a lot of gas filling stations and there are funding programs for filling gasoline cars with gas.
Prices for gas, petrol and electricity have fallen in Russia.
Thanks for the sanctions.

I'll tell you a secret - in fact, the whole world is indebted to each other, and "to that uncle"
The level of debt is not a one-size-fits-all indicator. For example, we take the United States - domestic debt - more expensive than half of the world! And the external one - with the cost as the second half of the world!
And nothing - the leading economy, politics, the army and much more.
Saudi Arabia - 150,000 million in external debt, and feel great with the highest standard of living!
Now about greatness - well, there are no questions with the greatness of the United States. But why did you decide that Russia is a great country - this is the question, most likely without a logical answer, no offense! A terrorist country, a loser country, a pathetic likeness of North Korea, but what is great here!?

Well, in essence the topic: "If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries. "
And tell me, why did you get the idea that raw materials are only in Russia, and that in Russia it is cheap? The fits of hysteria of the Kremlin dwarf showed that economic terrorism is a common thing for Russia, and it will set prices as it wants. And if Britain, the USA and part of Europe had not taken up the matter now, the Kremlin ghouls would have already poisoned everyone in the EU against Russian gas with a "newcomer"!
The problem is that "raw materials are available only in Russia, and only in Russia they are cheap! If you study the history of the formation of the oil and gas market in Europe, you will be surprised how, since the 50-60s of the last century, the USSR "invested" in bribing state officials and "West Berlin", and France and Italy and many others. It is the corrupt monopolization of the industry of some countries that has led to the current situation! There are no cheap resources from Russia - there are corrupt politicians, corruption, and a lot of interesting but not yet published facts for the public , about some personalities from the very top of the political Olympus of Europe in the second half of the 20th century.

[ololajulo]

It is going more crazy in the next coming months if nothing is done with the war and winter starts. According to recent news Germans would have used up almost all the store gas/crude in the country except they gotten, then when winter is here the consumption of gas will increase and the available gas wont be enough, supply wont be able to cater for the demand and the price will go crazier.

[be.open]

I'll tell you a secret - in fact, the whole world is indebted to each other, and "to that uncle"
The level of debt is not a one-size-fits-all indicator. For example, we take the United States - domestic debt - more expensive than half of the world! And the external one - with the cost as the second half of the world!
And nothing - the leading economy, politics, the army and much more.
Saudi Arabia - 150,000 million in external debt, and feel great with the highest standard of living!
Now about greatness - well, there are no questions with the greatness of the United States. But why did you decide that Russia is a great country - this is the question, most likely without a logical answer, no offense! A terrorist country, a loser country, a pathetic likeness of North Korea, but what is great here!?

Well, in essence the topic: "If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries. "
And tell me, why did you get the idea that raw materials are only in Russia, and that in Russia it is cheap? The fits of hysteria of the Kremlin dwarf showed that economic terrorism is a common thing for Russia, and it will set prices as it wants. And if Britain, the USA and part of Europe had not taken up the matter now, the Kremlin ghouls would have already poisoned everyone in the EU against Russian gas with a "newcomer"!
The problem is that "raw materials are available only in Russia, and only in Russia they are cheap! If you study the history of the formation of the oil and gas market in Europe, you will be surprised how, since the 50-60s of the last century, the USSR "invested" in bribing state officials and "West Berlin", and France and Italy and many others. It is the corrupt monopolization of the industry of some countries that has led to the current situation! There are no cheap resources from Russia - there are corrupt politicians, corruption, and a lot of interesting but not yet published facts for the public , about some personalities from the very top of the political Olympus of Europe in the second half of the 20th century.

Now for Europe, even in Russia, there are no more cheap raw materials and energy. Say thanks to the Poles, who two years ago won a lawsuit against Gazprom in order to receive gas at a spot price, and not at the price of long-term contracts. After that, the spot gas price was very low for a while and the Poles made a short-term profit from the court decision, but now the situation has changed. Only Serbia in Europe has a good long-term contract with Gazprom (about $400 per thousand cubic meters of gas), the rest of the countries are forced to buy gas at a spot price, which has already fixed itself at over $3,000 per thousand cubic meters. A dozen large European fertilizer plants have already been forced to stop their work and this is just the beginning. By winter, the entire energy-intensive industry of the European Union will be completely paralyzed. And I see no chance to avoid this scenario.

[LoyceV]

In today's news: Belgium and Germany are on schedule to close nuclear power plants this winter. As much as I like green energy, we're far from being able to go without conventional power plants.

Meanwhile in my country: local governments are forced to cancel cheap gas contracts, and buy expensive gas on the spot market. The Dutch are alone in interpreting EU sanctions this way, and may even be violating sanctions by doing this. But ministries aren't known for admitting their mistakes, so it continues as planned.

German electricity prices passed 1 euro per kWh for the first time today, just like French prices did last Friday. Meanwhile, the euro keeps dropping against the dollar, and with reason: high energy prices impact every aspect of the economy.

[zasad@]

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

It is from these "drops" that the exit path is built. See what the EU is doing now
1. Reducing gas consumption by 15% by the end of the year.
2. This applies to all countries. Do you know what's important here? The fact that only some countries, or rather their industry, is highly dependent (more than 30%) on gas from Russia. It also means that countries that consume 15% or less of Russian gas will also reduce gas consumption.
And that means what? That's right - there will be a surplus of gas of non-Russian origin.
3. Real dependence, or rather a noticeably negative situation in only a few countries. These are countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Hungary. Are you familiar with this list?
The rest of the countries, or rather their rulers, did not sell themselves to the Kremlin ghouls, and did not make their country dependent on the idiotic tricks of the petty under-Fuhrer from the Kremlin. With other countries, in this vile type, the gas terror did not pass, they easily abandoned the "blood gas" and sent terrorist suppliers to hell.

As a result: Therefore, a step-by-step, by 2-3-5% reduction, over time, will allow us to completely abandon supplies from Russia. Unfortunately, to the same Germany it is extremely difficult to immediately refuse gas supplies from Russia - most of their industry is tied precisely to the supply of Russian gas. This is about 40% of all purchased gas. Germany buys 60% from other suppliers.

Europe is Germany and France. Italy is the number 2 debtor after Greece.
Why are the USA and Russia great countries? Because they are not dependent on other countries in all major respects.

If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries.

But in Europe it's not fashionable, they don't want to get dirty and be safe. Therefore, green energy is in fashion there.
And this energy is not enough for production.

A politician should do what the voters want, not what is important for the country. No need to blame the Kremlin for the troubles of Europe.
Europeans are to blame for this themselves.
____
In Russia, a massive program of gasification of the entire country is now underway in order to increase gas consumption. There are a lot of gas filling stations and there are funding programs for filling gasoline cars with gas.
Prices for gas, petrol and electricity have fallen in Russia.
Thanks for the sanctions.

I'll tell you a secret - in fact, the whole world is indebted to each other, and "to that uncle"
The level of debt is not a one-size-fits-all indicator. For example, we take the United States - domestic debt - more expensive than half of the world! And the external one - with the cost as the second half of the world!
And nothing - the leading economy, politics, the army and much more.
Saudi Arabia - 150,000 million in external debt, and feel great with the highest standard of living!
Now about greatness - well, there are no questions with the greatness of the United States. But why did you decide that Russia is a great country - this is the question, most likely without a logical answer, no offense! A terrorist country, a loser country, a pathetic likeness of North Korea, but what is great here!?

Well, in essence the topic: "If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries. "
And tell me, why did you get the idea that raw materials are only in Russia, and that in Russia it is cheap? The fits of hysteria of the Kremlin dwarf showed that economic terrorism is a common thing for Russia, and it will set prices as it wants. And if Britain, the USA and part of Europe had not taken up the matter now, the Kremlin ghouls would have already poisoned everyone in the EU against Russian gas with a "newcomer"!
The problem is that "raw materials are available only in Russia, and only in Russia they are cheap! If you study the history of the formation of the oil and gas market in Europe, you will be surprised how, since the 50-60s of the last century, the USSR "invested" in bribing state officials and "West Berlin", and France and Italy and many others. It is the corrupt monopolization of the industry of some countries that has led to the current situation! There are no cheap resources from Russia - there are corrupt politicians, corruption, and a lot of interesting but not yet published facts for the public , about some personalities from the very top of the political Olympus of Europe in the second half of the 20th century.

Russia is a great country - let me rephrase this expression so that some users do not feel offended. Russia is a country with an enormous area and large deposits of minerals. This country cannot be blocked by sanctions.
You say that in corrupt European politicians Russia is to blame.
Is it fair to blame Europe and the US for the collapse of Russia's industry and corrupt politicians?