Are border wallets a modification of brain wallet?

[Majestic-milf]

 With the introduction of the Bitcoin Improvement Proposals(BIP) 39, Bitcoin users have now been given the option to memorize the information necessary to recover Bitcoin funds stored on-chain by using plain words
 But it becomes a bit of a stretch to able to memorize and later remember 12 or 24 unrelated words, this is is why people create physical backup.

 Border wallets are created to help bitcoiners be able to transport their Bitcoins reliably across borders. And it's convenient as it eliminates a situation of say war, where people are not given the luxury of packing all their valuables, or those individuals who are digital nomads.

Border wallets provide a means of memorizing your seed phrases by this methods:

- Entropy grid; this a randomized grid of all 2048 seed words,
- Patterns; a user generated pattern(s) or cell coordinates
- Final word "number";


With the use of an offline browser based Entropy Grid Generator (EGG), bitcoiners can now generate their own entropically secured randomized grid of all 2048 BIP 39 compliant seed words then use a memorable pattern in order to create a wallet
 Now as each unique entropy grid contains a complete list of all the seed phrases in a randomized pattern, users would have to store their entropy grid digitally as these patterns exist only in their heads.
 
This brings me to the question. Although a brain wallet doesn't make use of patterns, these seed phrases are stored in your head which is quite similar to what a border wallet does; so what makes it preferable to the Brain wallet if they both suffer the same disadvantages?

 Your opinions would be appreciated.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/border-wallets-help-users-memorize-bitcoin-seed-phrases

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[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't understand why we're making simple things so complicated.

You can either generate the necessary bits yourself by hashing a password, or you can let the computer generate the bits provably randomly and encode these bits to human-readable phrase. Whatever you choose to do, memorizing the password / seed phrase is not recommended, unless you've already backed it up on paper.

If you're about to have your house seized (as in the article), you should back it up more than once outside (e.g., in cottage).

[NotATether]

Border wallets =/= Brain wallets.

The latter is a SHA256 hash of some text and encoded into a private key WIF, and does not make use of BIP39 seed phrases at all.

[pooya87]

I also think the method is too complicated. Compared to writing the randomly generated words (12) inside a book that you carry across border may be a simpler option. Worse case scenario is storing an encrypted version of it on a cloud server and retrieving it after crossing the border.

I also can't help but think methods like this where the user has to be the entropy source all share the same weaknesses that humans are not a good source of entropy. You know that there is a good chance that someone is going to choose a weak pattern and have their coins stolen.

[Majestic-milf]

I also can't help but think methods like this where the user has to be the entropy source all share the same weaknesses that humans are not a good source of entropy. You know that there is a good chance that someone is going to choose a weak pattern and have their coins stolen.

My point exactly! What if the user forgets his pattern probably because he may be suffering from a short term memory or he saves the pattern on a device and then maybe a virus gets detected on the device and everything gets wiped off? The user will just have to kiss his coins good bye.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I just made a post about these wallets in another thread before I saw this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5409403.msg60732226#msg60732226

In short, these wallets are a terrible idea and solve absolutely nothing. The article you've linked to from Bitcoin Magazine takes the stupidity to a whole new level, though. They want you generate a grid, write down its seed phrase, draw a pattern on that grid, remember that pattern, use that to generate a new grid, draw a new pattern on that grid, remember that pattern, and then use that to generate a wallet. So now you still have to protect a back up of a seed phrase as you would anyway, but you also have to remember two or more distinct patterns exactly, where exactly on the grid they go, and which one goes on which grid? With no error correction mechanism should you make a single mistake, meaning a single mistake will be essentially impossible to detect or correct. And you want to convince me this is better than a seed phrase and passphrase combination?

This sounds like a sure fire way to lock yourself out of your coins forever.

[odolvlobo]

This brings me to the question. Although a brain wallet doesn't make use of patterns, these seed phrases are stored in your head which is quite similar to what a border wallet does; so what makes it preferable to the Brain wallet if they both suffer the same disadvantages?

The assumption is that it is easier to memorize a pattern than it is to memorize a list of unrelated words, so a pattern can be more complex than a brain wallet, and this makes it harder to crack.

However, I think there are also disadvantages.

1. If you lose the grid, you have lost your wallet (unless you use the deterministic option).
2. The pattern is not random, so if an attacker gains access to the grid, it will much easier to brute force the phrase because there is a limited number of patterns that people will memorize. And just like passwords, some patterns will be used more than others. But, it would still be harder to crack than a brain wallet because it could be more complex.

...They want you generate a grid, write down its seed phrase, draw a pattern on that grid, remember that pattern, use that to generate a new grid, draw a new pattern on that grid, remember that pattern, and then use that to generate a wallet.

You have misunderstood the process. In short, you generate a grid of words, apply a memorized pattern to the grid, and then use the words in the pattern along with a memorized word as the seed phrase for your wallet.

If you don't want to store the grid itself, you can store a BIP-39 phrase that represents the grid instead. This option makes the process equivalent to using a BIP-39 seed phrase with a memorized pattern plus an additional word as a password. While more complicated, it is much more secure than storing a seed phrase and memorizing a passphrase.

[PawGo]

2. The pattern is not random, so if an attacker gains access to the grid, it will much easier to brute force the phrase because there is a limited number of patterns that people will memorize. And just like passwords, some patterns will be used more than others. But, I would still be harder to crack than a brain wallet because it could be more complex.

I see that as a one of main problems. Even if you have your favorite pattern, it means nothing without personal grid. Simpler would be to use the same order of words and maybe different dimensions of grid, but then I may imagine we would have sooner or later collisions - people would generate the same pattern (words). But it would be easier to remember grid dimensions and pattern than keep words in given order.
The problem with that proposal would be that we do not know how to read words - in which order. Natural order would mean that words are always in alphabetic order, and it is a serious weakness.

[philipma1957]

Hmm so I sent ten photos / drawings to theymos’s email and cc myself. ( I dont have his email)

the photos hide the patterns .

I walk across the border nude.

Get to a safe country and open email look at the cc and download the photos.

So basically you need to hide in plain site.

Or POST THIS PHOTO

lots of easy grids in it




along with this photo





and you are hiding the grid in plain site ( purloined letter style)

[o_e_l_e_o]

You have misunderstood the process.

No. What you have scored out leaves the basic process, but as I said, the article recommends creating grids based on previous grids, which does nothing except make it exponentially more likely that you end up with an unrecoverable back up:

To do this, users would generate a grid and then construct a 12-word pattern to apply it onto that grid. They then take those 12 words and input them to the “grid regeneration” tab within the EGG, producing a second grid. This can then be repeated to create new grids ad infinitum.

While more complicated, it is much more secure than storing a seed phrase and memorizing a passphrase.

I disagree with this. If someone finds your grid seed phrase, then they only have to guess your pattern. If someone finds your wallet seed phrase, then they only have to guess your passphrase. The set of all possible passphrases is orders of magnitude larger than the set of all possible patterns, and the set of all possible patterns will be greatly restricted since 1) users will draw actual patterns as opposed to selecting random boxes, and 2) users will read their boxes in a specific order (most probably left to right then top to bottom).