BITCOIN IS NOT A STORE OF VALUE

[NotATether]

It's amazing the level of bias from the members on these boards. You are all on a shared delusion. How long has bitcoin existed? Has it existed more than 100 years? 200 years? How long have you been alive?

Case and point gold and silver were here long before, and will be here long after both you, and bitcoin (the man made invention) are gone.

Governments can and will squash it if they want and there's no amount of arguing that will save it from becoming put under so much regulation that nobody will use it.

Store of value doesn't shed 40% of it's value... That's indicative of a ponzi scheme. How about lets talk about the trading bots that ultimately control the market, or am I a conspiracy theorist for pointing this out?

I expect completely biased individuals to jump in and try to rationalize all the ways that I'm supposedly wrong. But the fact is you all cannot argue with history, and what world banks and governments are stockpiling. Don't forget, they can blow you up, at that point your monetary pipe dream theories all go out the window.

Fortunately I don't have to do that, because as you can see I managed to decentralize the debunking. 

[franky1]

Governments can and will squash it if they want and there's no amount of arguing that will save it from becoming put under so much regulation that nobody will use it.

three things regulators can do if certain things align change or are pushed.. (worse case scenario

so lets get real
they can tell their regulated bitcoin BUSINESSES (exchanges) to stop servicing BTC much like you see american exchanges like coinbase not list monero

if bitcoin was regulated by CFTC(commodity regulator) then extra regulations become applicable where environmental concerns are allowed to limit/prohibit things. such as asking power companies to not service large electric using industries if the power companies are fossil based. this can impact mining farms.
(CFTC coverage also causes limitations on many commodities like environmental impacts of cattle farming and fertiliser use on crop farming)

corporations that employ the main bitcoin devs with merge/commit/maintainer privileges of bitcoin core can have their employers pushed to push their employees to develop new forks that are doing different algo's/features and functions that regulators want

but here is the thing. even if regulators push for a fork and make exchanges in america only list the fork as "btc". the community could rally around a campaign to just stop using those exchanges and declare those exchanges as fake bitcoin traders. losing exchanges money  via less customer use

yes it could make bitcoin take a few steps backwards in its growth and have to then popularise the exchanges that are not US regulated. much like when MTGox disapeared it took a while for people to trust other exchanges as the main price discovery sites.

but thats all just temporary drama of yet another fork yet another mining farm location shift and yet another change of the most popular exchanges to use as price discovery

bitcoin experienced all these sort of games in the past, brand stealing, forks mining bans and exchange popularity shifts.. and bitcoin still remains

but with al that said. there are many things to do before any of that happens to mitigate the drama, minimise the impact and even prevent the risk of there being any attempt/effort to push those regulators into doing anything

Store of value doesn't shed 40% of it's value... That's indicative of a ponzi scheme. How about lets talk about the trading bots that ultimately control the market, or am I a conspiracy theorist for pointing this out?

you are confusing value vs price
the store of value does not follow price. they are separate measures

SOV is a amount BELOW the market bottom. its the no-mans land of trading where no one trades below. but its not a daily change figure. its a long term milestone amount.
so while the price jumps around daily, the store of value amount sits below that healthily and slowly rises per quarter-year

al assets have a SoV amount. but like i just said none of the SoV amounts are the price..

lets use gold
the SoV amount is ~$900 and the market price is $1700
SoV is ~53% of price

ethereumPoS has a SoV of $35 and its market price is $1300
Sov is ~2.7% of price

bitcoin has a SoV of ~$15k and the price today is $19k
Sov is ~ 79%
..
bitcoin at its current price allows people buying to store more of their wealth than if they bought gold

yes try to avoid buying bitcoin when the price is high.. but thats common sense
buy low sell high. dont buy high sell low.

no where in history has store of value ever meant that it stores all of price as value and locks in that value to never lose anyone any value when they buy an asset
no where no time no asset has ever made that promise and neither has SoV concept meant every cent of peoples purchase is locked in and saved/secured

prices always change so SoV has never been the price amount
SoV is about have a non zero 'bottom' no one sells below thus protecting a certain % of peoples buy price

if the price is low and closer to its SoV then that is called GREAT VALUE

yep when the price goes down its good to then buy because the percentage of your buy is protected more due to being close to great value thus locking in more of your value

when the price is high.. thats the speculative bubble. and not a good time to buy less of your wealth is protected

bitcoin. or any assets VALUE is NEVER i repeat NEVER sat at the ATH. value is ALWAYS sat at the LOW

when the price corrects after the bubble ATH the correction down is not "losing value" its infact the price returning to great value prices where people can protect more of their wealth

[virasog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

You example of store of value does not convince me. Computers, phones, and all these stuff aren't stored of value.
When you say store of value, do you mean that the prices of that "Store of value" does not dump ?

Gold is a store of value, and we may see fluctuation in its prices too. Bitcoin is also a store of value, though it is at a very early stage and therefore it has a lot of volatility.

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

The value of gold and silver wouldn't exist, or at least wouldn't matter, if there were no humans reasoning about what to consider valuable. To put it another way, value is always a matter of subjective thinking of every single individual. Bitcoin has certain credible characteristics because some individuals decided it is worth mining it and holding, and vice versa, some individuals think it is valuable because it has those credible characteristics.

I totally agree with what you just said, because the gold and silver we all refer as store of value today was given that preference due to the fact that they are scarce, durable, divisible and generally accepted, of which people saw that it could be use as a medium of exchange, of which Bitcoin today also has same qualities of been scarce, durable, divisible and generally accepted as a stors of value and means of exchange. So why can't it be called "Store of value" when they all has almost same qualities?

[PSCQQSCQQP]

If your electric has gone out for nonpayment of the bill, or because of rampant runaway inflation, or because of some other unforseen event (as demonstrated in so many countries GLOBALLY) where's the store of value?
What good is a store of value that cannot be used?
If your internet goes down, where's the store of value?
If ISP's/phone providers choose to block certain MAC addresses, who has stores of value and who are the unlucky ones?

The point I'm trying to make is that an ACTUAL STORE OF VALUE needs to be accessible 100% of the time for utilization, and not just some of the time.

You cannot guarantee the power grid will be here tomorrow, nor can you guarantee that your internet will be working when you want it to, nor can you guarantee that the mining farms will stay decentralized, nor can you guarantee that a miner will process your transaction when you need them to...

A STORE OF VALUE is NOT reliant on more than 2 things to function properly;

1. The Buyer.
2. The Seller.

That's it. Gold and Silver were chosen because they are perfect for fulfilling that role, without any FLAWS, without any downtime or reliance on anything else. Nothing will ever replace them, people have tried, and have always failed.

bitcoin on the other hand REQUIRES;

1. Electrical grids.
2. Internet Service Providers.
3. Miners to process your transaction.
4. AML/KYC.
5. Buyer.
6. Seller.

And that's not even counting all the exploits that exist that are unknown to you, anything digital can be easily stolen, hacked, confiscated, seized, etc... I prefer my store of value to be physical, that works irregardless of power or internet outages, government having the ability to track what I'm doing, or some kid in his garage with a laptop that can empty my wallet without my say so... That's NOT a store of value. It has FLAWS. Plain and simple.

I can't believe you people are this naive - it's been around less than 20 years and your so certain of it's future, based on what exactly? That it's flawless?.... Hardly. Not even close to a store of value imho.

I can guarantee gold and silver will be working 24/7 and will never rely on anything besides the buyer and seller. That's the hard to swallow truth of the matter. Gold and Silver have been here since the beginning of time and will be around until the end of time. Can the same be said for bitcoin, or any other cryptocurrecy?

[franky1]

gold on the other hand REQUIRES;

1. Deisel
2. roads and transport
3. Miners sluice machines, trucks  and foundries to process gold
4. Buyer.
5. Seller.

fixed that for you

as for bitcoin
bitcoin does not ask for your name or if you are a terrorist
i challenge you to look at any transaction on the blockchain. any block header.. and show me where it includes peoples birth names/ geo location and what they are buying... hint: you wont find it

gold relies on vaults, pawnbrokers and gold merchants.
you do know that BUSINESSES that facilitate trade(of both gold and bitcoin) do ask for KYC. but the currency (bitcoin/gold) does not

bitcoin miners are self contained in their work. they are incentivised by block rewards mainly. they are not reliant on transactions. yep they can make blocks without any transactions in it and still get their reward.

bitcoin users storing bitcoin. need to do nothing. but keep their private key safe. they can go years without looking on the internet and know their private key will still work where they can spend their funds later
they do not need to be online 24/7 just to keep their funds safe

trying to keep gold safe is more intensive and requires more effort.

oh .. and also think about the logistics involved and the costs to move gold cross the planet within 10 minutes..

yes gold has utility in local hand to hand transactions.. but when it comes to international transactions. gold fails the utility tests

[PSCQQSCQQP]

gold on the other hand REQUIRES;

1. Deisel
2. roads and transport
3. Miners sluice machines, trucks  and foundries to process gold
4. Buyer.
5. Seller.

You failed to answer my question or to even acknowledge if your power or internet ceases to function (for whatever reason), what then is bitcoin? What's wrong that you can't answer this question?
I'll reiterate in case you forgot. A STORE OF VALUE needs to be functional 100% of the time - otherwise it's NOT a store of value.
The physical gold in my possession doesn't rely on a miner, an ISP, or a power company for me to complete a transaction. However, if you are without even 1 of those things your bitcoin is then WORTHLESS. What then is a store of value? It's hard to accept the truth sometimes, and the truth is you might not always have power, you might not always have internet, and miners might not take your transaction... You are reliant, there's risks. Gold doesn't suffer from risks, you cannot and will not convince me otherwise.

In response to your response to my response...

1. If we are comparing apples to oranges, bitcoin mining consumes 150 terawatt-hours of electricity annually at the current rate, looking into the future as mining becomes more difficult, this will lead to an increase in carbon emissions and ever increasing TWh use - bitcoin will continue burning more fossil fuels than gold mining operations combined, and will do so every single year without decline. Leading to a much more destructive pattern than gold on the environment. Gold doesn't require a network backbone to function, whereas bitcoin does. Therefore and by extension, bitcoin will always remain energy intensive and reliant on something else in order to function, and will always be REQUIRED to sustain. Cross 1 off your list. Diesel is not required (fixed your spelling mistake). It's being used today for convenience and efficiency. Diesel didn't exist until roughly the turn of the 19th century, therefore diesel is not and was never required - it's optional.

2. Roads and transport are used to deliver products, are you telling me that without roads and transport people wouldn't be able to use their gold? Oh my, I wonder how the Ancient Egyptians or countless civilizations managed without your brilliant insight and their cars 7,000 years ago to be able to transport or use gold... Cross 2 off your list. Roads weren't around 7,000 years ago... Again, not required - optional.

3. Again, mining gold can be done without these methods and without much of a carbon footprint as seen with historical mining, although much less efficiently - long before diesel existed... There's no way around burning fossil fuels to mine bitcoin, and as stated before will require increasing amounts of energy consumption to sustain... No. Way. Around. It... Gold doesn't require any of these things, it's a matter of convenience and efficiency. Cross 3 off your list.

What then are we left with.......

4. Buyer - required.
5. Seller - required.

Congratulations on wasting your time and mine, as well as the electricity and calories for my laptop and body to respond. Like bitcoin, your off to great start at not being more efficient.

fixed that for you

- What exactly did you fix?
- The way I see this is I have to keep on 'schooling' you for free - I'm a nice guy like that... On the other hand I'm not volunteering to repay your student loan debt because you decided to not pay attention to all the warning signs. This time a freebie, next time will cost you.

as for bitcoin bitcoin does not ask for your name or if you are a terrorist

- Bitcoin is all done online it doesn't ask questions - however the exchange(s) ALWAYS ask, there is an entry point and exit point, there is a PUBLIC LEDGER of all your transactions, there are numerous exploits that the general public is unaware of, underlying flaws that you conveniently continue to overlook or fail to mention. Have you ever heard of a company called chainalysis? They work with the Feds to find out who owns the wallets that have illicit proceeds, as does the IRS.... Are you being intentionally evasive to the facts?... are you unaware that AML/KYC laws shadow the crypto space today? Walk into any coin shop or precious metals dealer and they make it their mission to protect your identity, they make it a point to not ask questions.

- You were probably one of the same people back when it first started that was yelling from the rooftops "the government can't track you, it's used by criminals", "it's decentralized", "it can't be hacked", "you can't be taxed", "you can be traced"... Even with VPN's the NSA can EASILY and quickly find out exactly who owns what wallets by monitoring and decrypting internet traffic, mostly done using AI. And just as easily empty your online wallet as easy as the patriot act gave them the ability to freeze and seize your bank account... How are you not keeping up with this, or are those bitcoin blinders causing tunnel vision?

- One thing I noticed is that you, as well as many others here are completely biased or not as educated on the subject as you're leading the viewing public to believe. Causing more confusion and chaos than it's ultimately worth.

- And lastly responding to your comment... I really don't see how terrorism is relevant or ties into what is a store of value.

i challenge you to look at any transaction on the blockchain. any block header.. and show me where it includes peoples birth names/ geo location and what they are buying... hint: you wont find it

- I challenge you to look through any electronic device your holding or using that connects to the internet for what is known as a MAC address (Media Access Control address) - I bet you will find it because every piece of hardware that connects to the internet has one, and that's all the info the government or bad actor needs to tie an identity to you, to figure out who that wallet(s) belong(s) to, and to just as easily see your other crypto and banking holdings, as well as any and all internet activity.

Please try to keep up... Hint: Your MAC address narrowed down to your IP address (Internet Protocol address), narrowed down to the make and model of your device, narrowed down to your internet or phone service provider (who also has all your personal identifiable information), narrowed down to your exact GPS location (within 3 feet), narrowed down to name and all known aliases, address(es), birth date, social security number, bank account(s) (which also have all your personal information on file), complete profile of you, your porn preferences, crypto wallet holdings, all transactions to and from your bitcoin wallet, all known associates and name of customer with internet service - YOU, and by extension leaving a permanent online paper trail of everything you ever did online. Wow, you didn't give your name... Congratulations, you are starting to test my patience for stupidity.

- Wanna know how I know you are wrong and don't really know what you're talking about? I was arrested by the FBI, NSA, DHS, Secret Service, US Marshals, local and state police departments for operating an online business single handedly hacking cable modems and giving users on a global scale free untraceable internet access as well as gaming console and numerous FTA exploits... So please forgive me for pointing out my experience on this as this is my field of expertise. Crypto can be taken away from you without a moments notice at the stroke of a key, it's happened to many people already, and also to people with all the technical know how to store their coins from prying eyes... It maybe hasn't happened to you (yet), but if and when it does will you still be singing the same song and dance as you are now when your wallets get emptied? You might not take my word for it, but what about John McAfee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syI9X_uKvUA

Is he crazy, he also doesn't know what hes talking about? What I wanna know is what experience or credentials do you have to be educating someone on the intricacies of online digital currencies or stores of value?

gold relies on vaults, pawnbrokers and gold merchants.
you do know that BUSINESSES that facilitate trade(of both gold and bitcoin) do ask for KYC. but the currency (bitcoin/gold) does not

- Gold is STORED in vaults, it's not at all reliant on a vault to function... Without vaults gold has the same utility as it always has, it doesn't RELY on anything except the buyer and seller... use your brain man... KYC is now blanketed across the entire crypto space for ANY amount purchased in bitcoin. You are automatically being tracked. Gold is hand to hand person to person. Yes, there is a degree of KYC with gold when done ONLINE, but generally only applies to amounts that exceed $10,000. Globally, I can offer to buy something using gold and 9 times out of 10 they will accept it on the spot without asking me where I got it, or who I am. Bitcoin on the other hand is not so forgiving since there is a permanent online paper trail leading back to you.
-You mean to tell me that without pawn shops or merchants that gold would just cease to function as a medium of exchange store of value, unit of account, and all the other necessary properties to fall into the category of MONEY? All due respect but thousands of years of history, and every collapse known to man contradicts your statements, it's managed to endure to this point and retain as a store of value... Without the need for a handheld device... 100% anonymous and untraceable. If you even bring up serial numbers I'm gonna e-smack you... gold can be melted down, and nobody would be the wiser of where it came from or who owned it before you. bitcoin on the other hand... public ledger!

bitcoin miners are self contained in their work. they are incentivised by block rewards mainly. they are not reliant on transactions. yep they can make blocks without any transactions in it and still get their reward.

- Exactly my point. They DO NOT have to process your transactions, miners are REQUIRED in order for confirmations to be completed for a transaction to go completely through. Without a miner to process your transaction you are SOL. I use to be a big bitcoin miner, trust me on this. No way around or out of a miner to process ALL transactions. If that's necessary, since when does a store of value require the need for a third party to process a transaction? It never did before. What I see is man creating another problem without a solution. Imagine back when gold was first discovered how ridiculous it would sound to "ask" the government permission to buy or sell something using gold and then give them a small cut for them allowing you, that' just crazy. And that's essentially what miners can do... They don't like the fee you pay, they can deny your transaction, and you're left in shits creek with just oars and no boat... No store of value.

bitcoin users storing bitcoin. need to do nothing. but keep their private key safe. they can go years without looking on the internet and know their private key will still work where they can spend their funds later
they do not need to be online 24/7 just to keep their funds safe

trying to keep gold safe is more intensive and requires more effort.

oh .. and also think about the logistics involved and the costs to move gold cross the planet within 10 minutes..

yes gold has utility in local hand to hand transactions.. but when it comes to international transactions. gold fails the utility tests

I can't keep explaining all the different ways that you are incorrect about this, it's wasting my time - that's why I stopped after the miner comment. I think I made my point. I am willing to bet you've never actually held an ounce of gold in your hands so to speak about it is a disservice to everyone viewing this nonsense. Bitcoin is fragile and reliant on a system that is collapsing... Can you guarantee that your power or internet will be on tomorrow? Exactly. And while you're at it, try rewording Article 1 Section 10 of the USC to telling people that instead of gold and silver to repay debts, bitcoin is then rebranded from currency to money. Good luck let us know how that works out.

All I really see here on these boards is random people without any technical knowledge putting their $0.02 in and blatantly spreading misinformation that is potentially damaging to an individual person from gaining a proper perspective and accurate education on these topics. And most likely will one day lead to great loss of a persons time. It's refreshing to see that attempting to teach rocket science to penguins is about as useful as trying to reason with people here. The truth is you simply lack the understanding to comprehend what an actual store of value is. This is the last post I make about this.

[pepebcn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

The argument that Bitcoin cannot replace gold because computers and cell phones are made of gold is, to say the least, misguided. Any mobile phone has many other metals besides gold (about 0.3 grams). For example Coltan, among many others.
I have NO DOUBT that Bitcoin will surpass the market capitalization of gold in the next 5 years.

[suzanne5223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

The argument that Bitcoin cannot replace gold because computers and cell phones are made of gold is, to say the least, misguided. Any mobile phone has many other metals besides gold (about 0.3 grams). For example Coltan, among many others.
I have NO DOUBT that Bitcoin will surpass the market capitalization of gold in the next 5 years.

I believe the OP is missing something here Gold, silver, and copper a piece of industrial equipment for electrical devices while Bitcoin is not, doesn't mean Bitcoin is not stored of value.
The industrial uses of something it been a store of value are totally different.
For the record, every commodity or asset with utility that can be traded in the hereafter without degenerating in worth is considered a store of value.

[franky1]

gold on the other hand REQUIRES;

1. Deisel
2. roads and transport
3. Miners sluice machines, trucks  and foundries to process gold
4. Buyer.
5. Seller.

You failed to answer my question or to even acknowledge if your power or internet ceases to function (for whatever reason), what then is bitcoin? What's wrong that you can't answer this question?
I'll reiterate in case you forgot. A STORE OF VALUE needs to be functional 100% of the time - otherwise it's NOT a store of value.

firstly.. bitcoin has been running constantly 24/7 for 13 years 9months

secondly Store of value does not need to function 24/7.. banks only operate during business hours. ATM's fail run out of money all the time..
banks have had many issues and outages..

as for me not having electric..
well ive never had a brownout-blackout and so not been affected. if i was id use my phone as that has a battery or id to a neighbour..

if you think gold "has to function" for trade 24/7 in your home.. you are not realising people do not trade gold in YOUR home. they trade it in multiple places... same goes for bitcoin.

my home internet has nothing to do with bitcoins store of value.

for there to a a global electric and internet switch off/blackout.. i dont think people would be caring much about bitcoin. they would be more worried about the nuclear bombs or the asteroids that went off to cause such a mega electromagnetic pulse..

so although you want to cry about catastrophe level things. your just fantasizing.

if you want to talk about local problems. there are solutions

heck if there was a electric blackout of just a town level.. well banks and retailers of fiat will have the same problem.
pawn brokers wont be able to open their time release vaults to get to their gold. so gold trades would be hit too

i could go on but i thought it was all common sense and didnt need explaining..

[LittleBitFunny]

It's amazing the level of bias from the members on these boards. You are all on a shared delusion. How long has bitcoin existed? Has it existed more than 100 years? 200 years? How long have you been alive?

Case and point gold and silver were here long before, and will be here long after both you, and bitcoin (the man made invention) are gone.

Governments can and will squash it if they want and there's no amount of arguing that will save it from becoming put under so much regulation that nobody will use it.

Store of value doesn't shed 40% of it's value... That's indicative of a ponzi scheme. How about lets talk about the trading bots that ultimately control the market, or am I a conspiracy theorist for pointing this out?

I expect completely biased individuals to jump in and try to rationalize all the ways that I'm supposedly wrong. But the fact is you all cannot argue with history, and what world banks and governments are stockpiling. Don't forget, they can blow you up, at that point your monetary pipe dream theories all go out the window.

After all, there is nothing wrong with what you say. To be fair, bitcoin's future is uncertain, in terms of its safety not comparable to gold or older assets. But bitcoin is a wonderful invention that we have today, you won't find another tool or a convenient store of assets like bitcoin, or it can be used as an instant means of cross-border payments...It can be seen that the benefits that bitcoin brings over gold or fiat are indisputable.

We still live in a world where the government is still the one that controls everything, so it's really impossible to fight them if they want to. But we still have the right to hope because all governments don't think alike. USD used to be the dominant currency in the world but now many countries are also starting to refuse to use it and find ways to create a different monetary system. It will take a long time to do that, it will probably fail, but it shows that governments are not all the same. So we still have hope with bitcoin, things can change as people's needs change.

[Pumared]

(...)

After all, there is nothing wrong with what you say. To be fair, bitcoin's future is uncertain, in terms of its safety not comparable to gold or older assets. But bitcoin is a wonderful invention that we have today, you won't find another tool or a convenient store of assets like bitcoin, or it can be used as an instant means of cross-border payments...It can be seen that the benefits that bitcoin brings over gold or fiat are indisputable.

I agree with you in the sense that Bitcoin is a wonderful thing. If we imagine a world crisis, Gold tends to be the reserve of many people. However, Bitcoin has been proving to be an even better reserve, both in terms of transacting and storing!

[$anounimus$]

I think BTC is not just a hedge against the stock market. For current conditions, Yes, When the economy is down, people will flock to buy gold to protect their wealth buying gold and silver to protect themselves from inflation so Demand will soar and it can become very difficult to find an ounce of gold to buy.

The world would not work without the elements that make it up. Bitcoin is a new idea as important as gold and silver. even with all the hype around it. In my opinion, Bitcoin will be the main cryptocurrency on earth in the future. It requires no trust and is easy to use.

[wiss19]

Miners do not get paid to give us permission to do a transaction, they are rewarded for solving some complex algorithm so they would protect the ledger of bitcoin network. That's the difference, and as a person who has been a miner for a long time you should know it. We could process the transaction with literally just one computer open, just make a huge block and that computer alone could do it, hell we deal with billions, even trillions of dollars on banking system with just a server system, powerful but still centralized.

The difference is that miners get paid to make sure that bitcoin is running as well as it is and harder to crack, this makes sure that you are not getting permission, you are paying to feel at ease that your money is safe.