Anyone up for Beta Testing a Prototype on Lightning Network?

[jordapoulton]

Hey fellow Bitcoiners - myself and a friend are currently building/learning how to build products and services on the Lightning Network (BTC), and we've just launched our first prototype product

If anyone wants to take a look themselves, this is our URL:

https://roll.satsumo.xyz/

TL:DR V0.1 is a really simple, provably fair, no signup, instant payment, 50:50 'coin toss' app.

We're trying to find 'Beta testers', and I was wondering if anyone might be willing to have a play? Failing that, I was wondering if any of you had any advice / tips on how to go about finding testers?

Being a Bitcoin product, on the rather nascent Layer 2 Network 'Lightning', the niche is quite small

Feel free to share the link with anyone you think might be interested, and please feel free to provide feedback, either public of private

[ABCbits]

We're trying to find 'Beta testers', and I was wondering if anyone might be willing to have a play? Failing that, I was wondering if any of you had any advice / tips on how to go about finding testers?

I checked generated LN invoice and found out it's for Bticoin mainnet. Consider use Bitcoin testnet instead if you want to see tester.

[jordapoulton]

Thanks for trying it out! We have already tested it on the testnet, and now we are hoping to get people playing with it in a real, live environment.

NB - bets can be as low as 1000 Satoshi

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't think you've made it clear on what am I betting at. I'll be generating a seed that is supposed to make gambling provably-fair, okay. I'll be paying your lightning invoice, also okay. Now, at this point, I expect to know who's generating that random number, as your provably fair page says.

I tried to send you 1,000 sats, but it ran out of routes. What's your lightning node? That's mine: https://1ml.com/node/03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e. I have about 0.04 BTC as sending capacity across the network, so it's probably not my fault.

Edit: I strongly recommend you avoid this service. Please read below why.

TL;DR:

• The game isn't provably fair.
• Developer isn't trustworthy.

[jordapoulton]

I don't think you've made it clear on what am I betting at. I'll be generating a seed that is supposed to make gambling provably-fair, okay. I'll be paying your lightning invoice, also okay. Now, at this point, I expect to know who's generating that random number, as your provably fair page says.

I tried to send you 1,000 sats, but it ran out of routes. What's your lightning node? That's mine: https://1ml.com/node/03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e. I have about 0.04 BTC as sending capacity across the network, so it's probably not my fault.

"I don't think you've made it clear on what am I betting at." - This is useful feedback, thanks. We should make it clearer that it's a 50:50 coin toss.

"I expect to know who's generating that random number" - this is generated by Ruby, as described in /fair, using the code:

```
(0...100).to_a.sample(random: Random.new(Random.new.seed.to_i))
```

This seed allows our users to run the code locally and verify that they got the same number we did.

What more would you like to know?

As for routing - we have lots of capacity in our channels. Should be plenty to handle a 1000 satoshi bet. Are you sure you followed steps 1 and 2 in order? If you make a request (step 2) before paying the invoice (step 1) it won't execute...

(And thanks for the feedback!)

[BlackHatCoiner]

"I expect to know who's generating that random number" - this is generated by Ruby, as described in /fair, using the code

I don't understand who's generating the seed. If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

Are you sure you followed steps 1 and 2 in order? If you make a request (step 2) before paying the invoice (step 1) it won't execute...

I didn't. I just tried to pay the invoice as a first step. Just tried again, but wasn't possible neither.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Okay, so the thousand satoshis were successfully routed to you this time. Generated a 1,980 satoshi invoice, and let it toss the coin. The page loaded, it was tails, I lost, and it showed me that if I wanted to verify the result, I should run the following command:

Code:

curl -s https://gist.githubusercontent.com/shellandbull/5ab714d5480995eeb92078c7e0d30f9e/raw/a6a6bbb7ca14def28fc6d948136c04cd75edd1aa/verify.rb | ruby /dev/stdin 793 50

Ran it, and got:

Code:

----------
seed - 793
odds - 50
House won? true
----------

Would you mind explaining a little bit what's behind this? And perhaps answer the two previous questions:

I don't understand who's generating the seed. If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

I think I've found a bug. I've sent another 1,000, but your page has stuck here. It doesn't do anything. I have not received anything back, so I assume the coin isn't being tossed in the background.

[shellandbull]

EDIT: @BlackHatCoiner Failed to demonstrate how this is not verifiable, then wen't on a smear campaign. I'd advise to ignore him

Okay, so the thousand satoshis were successfully routed to you this time. Generated a 1,980 satoshi invoice, and let it toss the coin. The page loaded, it was tails, I lost, and it showed me that if I wanted to verify the result, I should run the following command:

Code:

curl -s https://gist.githubusercontent.com/shellandbull/5ab714d5480995eeb92078c7e0d30f9e/raw/a6a6bbb7ca14def28fc6d948136c04cd75edd1aa/verify.rb | ruby /dev/stdin 793 50

Ran it, and got:

Code:

----------
seed - 793
odds - 50
House won? true
----------

Would you mind explaining a little bit what's behind this? And perhaps answer the two previous questions:

I don't understand who's generating the seed. If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

I think I've found a bug. I've sent another 1,000, but your page has stuck here. It doesn't do anything. I have not received anything back, so I assume the coin isn't being tossed in the background.

https://i.ibb.co/cbTbbdN/image.png

I'm the developer. I'll answer your comments.

> Okay, so the thousand satoshis were successfully routed to you this time

There's a ton of reasons why sats are not routed properly through lightning.

I don't know if your wallet has issues or if the node your wallet uses has issues. This is the feedback that I got from LND core developers when trying to troubleshoot this.

I "fixed" your issue by resetting mission control on our lightning node.

This erases previous routing failures. I don't know why you had a routing failure to start with and I'm not responsible for that either, as your transactions don't run through my node. If it was a routing failure coming from a payout then please by all means report it and we will sort it. Payouts come out of our node.

For the record we are aiming for users that are using battle tested software(WoS, Zeus, LND, Alby)

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app  

Would you mind explaining a little bit what's behind this? And perhaps answer the two previous questions:

It's explained on the fair section of the app -> https://roll.satsumo.xyz/#/fair and was written by my colleague. But I'll give you a TL;DR in bullets as I think its a format thats easy to digest


1) You pay us an invoice - the invoice becomes settled and has a preimage
2) the Preimage is a series of bytes on the invoice, as per -> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnrpc/lightning.proto#L3260-L3265
3) We decode that preimage and turn it into a NUMERICAL value. The "algorithm" to construct that number is here https://roll.satsumo.xyz/images/seed-generation.svg
4) That number is YOUR SEED. that SEED is a DETERMINISTIC INPUT for a randomness function. For the same input you get the same output, this is why its verifiable
6) We send you that seed back alongside with the code snippet that determines wether you win or not
7) You run the code and verify your result

The preimage, so in fact, the input, is generated by lightning and nothing to do with us. Hence fair.

So again, to answer your comment

> If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

You have access to your seed the entire time, its automatically generated when you pay us, you have access to it, we have access to it. There's no cheating. The code is the same as shown in https://roll.satsumo.xyz/#/fair

> I think I've found a bug. I've sent another 1,000, but your page has stuck here. It doesn't do anything. I have not received anything back, so I assume the coin isn't being tossed in the background.


It could be issues with your internet connection - Did it just froze forever? You would need to show me some sort of error message or failed HTTP request. Otherwise I wouldn't know if its something to do with your setup or connection. You're the first person to run into all of these issues.

[BlackHatCoiner]

This erases previous routing failures. I don't know why you had a routing failure to start with and I'm not responsible for that either, as your transactions don't run through my node.

For which transactions are you talking about? I just let your page generate me an invoice of 1,000 sats, loaded it on my RTL, tried to pay it, and after a while it stopped with a failure. I think it was a payout.

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app

I'm using C-Lightning v0.10.2 with RTL v0.12.3.

1) You pay us an invoice - the invoice becomes settled and has a preimage

The preimage, so in fact, the input, is generated by lightning and nothing to do with us. Hence fair.

Look after your wording. You're the one who's generating the invoice, and thus the pre-image. Isn't that correct? Your server decides what my invoice will be. The pre-image you generate is strictly correlated with my seed. What prevents you from generating an invoice with non-random pre-image?

It could be issues with your internet connection - Did it just froze forever? You would need to show me some sort of error message or failed HTTP request.

It just froze. My internet was fine. The submission button was disabled for a couple of minutes, and the page remained the same.

[shellandbull]

> I'm using C-Lightning v0.10.2 with RTL v0.12.3.

I found RLT buggy when I tried to use it, I wouldn't recommend it, its your coins.

> Look after your wording. You're the one who's generating the invoice, and thus the pre-image. Isn't that correct? Your server decides what my invoice will be. The pre-image you generate is strictly correlated with my seed. What prevents you from generating an invoice with non-random pre-image?

No its not correct. The lightning implementation generates an invoice. We run an LND instance on voltage, we communicate to it server-side.

The preimage doesn't exist when you generate an invoice

The preimage exists ONLY when you settle an invoice.

The preimage is generated by the lightning implementation you communicate to when YOU make a payment USING YOUR WALLET. ITS GENERATED BY YOU if anything.

If you don't believe me please go to the source code and point to the place where I'm wrong. I'm happy to refute it.

> It just froze. My internet was fine. The submission button was disabled for a couple of minutes, and the page remained the same.

Can you prove that to me?

You're the only person with all these issues.

First you ask for a full on breakdown of how the seed is verifiable

Then you go out and make a claim you can't provide verification for and implicitly ask me to just believe you - do you see where this is going? 

I also have to be brutally honest here.

I communicated in a clear manner how it all works and why it's transparent.

I've had this conversation many times with other people including software developers and lightning contributors and they're all happy with it and understand why its verifiable.

I feel responsible for looking after my product and looking after my potential users. I explained everything to you, I can't entertain this anymore unless you provide some real information around your issues. Not just hurr durr the seed this the seed that

Any further messages from you that are a plain complaint, come off as slander and don't provide a backing solid argument will be ignored

[BlackHatCoiner]

I haven't complained about anything. I'm telling you how things are. If you don't care, ignore. I have nothing personal with you, neither with your service.

Can you prove that to me?

I can't prove it. Nobody can, because it happened locally. An http error message isn't evidence either. It can be faked. My word should be enough for you.

No its not correct. The lightning implementation generates an invoice. We run an LND instance on voltage, we communicate to it server-side.

The preimage doesn't exist when you generate an invoice

The preimage exists ONLY when you settle an invoice.

The preimage is generated by the lightning implementation you communicate to when YOU make a payment USING YOUR WALLET. ITS GENERATED BY YOU if anything.

If you don't believe me please go to the source code and point to the place where I'm wrong. I'm happy to refute it.

I don't have the time to refute you by pointing to the source code, nor do I want to. I'm reading how it works in theory, and remain with the same question unanswered: Can't I or you cheat? You say that the lightning implementation generates the invoice. This means that the person who's running your node, which as far as I understand is voltage, can give you non-random pre-image. Is that correct?

But, then you say that the pre-image is generated by me. Does this mean from my lightning implementation? If so, can't I generate a non-random pre-image?

[shellandbull]

> I don't have the time to refute you by pointing to the source code, nor do I want to

I think this attitude settles the entire conversation

You ask for proof and verifiability and you get it, then discard it. Code to support it is provided too

You get asked for proof and verifiability of your claims and you don't provide it  Then you go and ask for people to believe you or say you're too busy. But you ain't busy enough to reply back? ffs

I've answered your other comments already and I won't answer them again.

We're running a fun experience, still in early days, some people are getting payouts and the feedback is mostly positive.

Judging by your way of dissecting things and how you reciprocate back I can only attest that you're not a user I'd cater for. I don't care to support your questions nor your use cases, feel free to never use my app again

 

[NeuroticFish]

For the record we are aiming for users that are using battle tested software(WoS, Zeus, LND, Alby)

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app  

I think this attitude settles the entire conversation

I am somewhat outsider in this discussion, however, I'll add some points:
1. I don't know how many "testers" you've got after this call, but I expect they're not many.
2. I would not expect the testers be supportive with your product, you should be supportive with the testers doing this for free.
3. You should get all the negative parts of the discussions and use them as opportunity to get the things better and/or easier to understand.

You are developer and I can guess that negativity against your work may not be what you expected. But then use a PR person as proxy.
Of course, this was a free advice. You can take it into account or not, no biggie.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think this attitude settles the entire conversation

Kindly speaking: What the fuck are you talking about? I don't question your coding skills nor do I say you don't code what you state. I'm questioning your theory.

You get asked for proof and verifiability of your claims and you don't provide it

I was asked to provide an error message that isn't solid evidence in the end, and that's why I didn't get involved further. I don't care about the 1,000 satoshis anyway.

I've answered your other comments already and I won't answer them again.

You keep avoiding answering me this simple question I have, which isn't honor for you. You've built the service from scratch. Such query should be easy to resolve.

Let me formulate it for one last time:

• The pre-image of the hash from the invoice you give me in step 1 is my seed.
• This particular invoice is generated by a Lightning node (either yours or a third-party's).

Correct? If yes, what forbids the Lightning node from generating an invoice with a non-random pre-image?

[shellandbull]

I've decided not to reply to your comments anymore, they have been answered already. I have decided not to support you as a user.

You're just trolling to keep the last word and smear something just because you don't have the mental capacity to understand it.

You've consistently failed to point and quote code backing your claims. You use "not caring the enough or not having the time for it" as a justification, but you do have the time to come back and respond??? 

For every silly, goofy comment you make I'll just reply back with the same.

This will forever bump this thread giving my product more views.  thanks for the clout

Anyone with good software engineering knowledge will read it and understand that you're obviously wrong here

Don't feed the troll kids

[LoyceV]

Being a Bitcoin product, on the rather nascent Layer 2 Network 'Lightning', the niche is quite small

Not really.

please feel free to provide feedback

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app  

I can't entertain this anymore unless you provide some real information around your issues. Not just hurr durr the seed this the seed that

Any further messages from you that are a plain complaint, come off as slander and don't provide a backing solid argument will be ignored

I have decided not to support you as a user.

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a "we need beta testers" escalate into mud slinging this quick! Are you 12?

For what it's worth: I trust BlackHatCoiner much more than a random unfriendly Newbie with a website. If you're want to attract users, you're going to have to work on your PR-skills.

[shellandbull]

Being a Bitcoin product, on the rather nascent Layer 2 Network 'Lightning', the niche is quite small

Not really.

please feel free to provide feedback

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app  

I can't entertain this anymore unless you provide some real information around your issues. Not just hurr durr the seed this the seed that

Any further messages from you that are a plain complaint, come off as slander and don't provide a backing solid argument will be ignored

I have decided not to support you as a user.

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a "we need beta testers" escalate into mud slinging this quick! Are you 12?

For what it's worth: I trust BlackHatCoiner much more than a random unfriendly Newbie with a website. If you're want to attract users, you're going to have to work on your PR-skills.

> unfriendly Newbie with a website.

I'm classed as a newbie because I am new to a forum that scores users based on comments not on comment quality. So whoever talks the most gets a shinnier JPEG next to their username and they're suddenly an expert? 

> Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a "we need beta testers" escalate into mud slinging this quick! Are you 12?

>For what it's worth: I trust BlackHatCoiner much more than a random unfriendly Newbie with a website. If you're want to attract users, you're going to have to work on your PR-skills.

Do as you will, its a free world 

Our PR has been great in every other forum, slack, discord, etc.

@BlackHatCoiner Isn't the 1st, 2d, not even 10th person to ask about the verification process. He is however the 1st one to criticise it without even being able to understand it. I don't care for having users like him when there's another 100 people staking, winning and moving on with their day

Yeah public image is important but as the person running this I can tell you I have a no asshole policy. He's an asshole therefore gets no service.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm classed as a newbie because I am new to a forum that scores users based on comments not on comment quality.

Rank is based on merits and activity. Merit is based on post quality. 

He is however the 1st one to criticise it without even being able to understand it.

I don't criticize your work. I'm asking you some questions so I can understand it and verify that it's actually provably fair. "Don't trust, verify", remember?

Yeah public image is important but as the person running this I can tell you I have a no asshole policy.

Refusing to answer to your clients' simple questions is an asshole policy. With all the respect.

[shellandbull]

> Rank is based on merits and activity. Merit is based on post quality.

"quality"

> I don't criticize your work. I'm asking you some questions so I can understand it and verify that it's actually provably fair. "Don't trust, verify", remember?


Answered already above. Lightning protocol code snippets where provided


> Refusing to answer to your clients' simple questions is an asshole policy. With all the respect.

Complete lies, your questions were answered, multiple times in different ways.

I genuinely challenge your state of mental health for carrying on with this conversation, specially after you failed to back your claims with data.

Again, don't you think readers are suspicious about the fact that you said you were "too busy and didn't care  the enough" to dig up the code and debate me. yet you still have the time and care the enough to mumble the same thing over and over again?

You're literally in a corner mumbling hurr durr my seed hurr durr can't verify hurr durr this is a scam.

It was answered. it's verifiable. I thank whoever developed lightning for this tech because its awesome, it solves a problem and it works!

This is the internet, anyone with a keyboard can post N-times and gain clout on a forum, its not indicative of knowledge on a domain nor skill. I am a biz owner defending his business. And as I said before, this gives me promotion as it continues to bump the thread.

Unlike you I do have the time and I do care enough to refute poorly held claims. I've backed it every time

[BlackHatCoiner]

Complete lies, your questions were answered, multiple times in different ways.

Let's begin debunking some weak shit.

From your "explanatory" page:

The bit where it gets interesting is this: we use your unique ‘seed’ as a kind of key, as a special input to the function that picks a random number from 1-100. The seed is a product of the preimage on your paid invoice, which we generate using the Ruby programming language like so

Meanwhile on post #8:

The preimage, so in fact, the input, is generated by lightning and nothing to do with us. Hence fair.

Later, I posted this:

Look after your wording. You're the one who's generating the invoice, and thus the pre-image. Isn't that correct? Your server decides what my invoice will be. The pre-image you generate is strictly correlated with my seed. What prevents you from generating an invoice with non-random pre-image?

And got this as response:

No its not correct. The lightning implementation generates an invoice. We run an LND instance on voltage, we communicate to it server-side.

From the above, I conclude that either you or a third party runs a Lightning node you connect to, server-side, and which generates the invoice whose pre-image clients use as seeds. Therefore, it's entirely possible for the entity that controls the Lightning node to pass an invoice with non-random pre-image. Isn't that correct?