Bitcoin mining ban in Europe

[LegendaryK]

I hope Bitcoin stays a PoW coin even if that means a full ban from the EU (and possibly the US).

Don't forget to add Canada to the list. 

https://cointelegraph.com/news/quebec-s-energy-manager-to-seek-government-approval-to-stop-powering-crypto-miners

Quebec’s energy manager to seek government approval to stop powering crypto miners

According to a Nov. 3 tweet from Canadian lawmaker Pierre Fitzgibbon,
the government will request a decree from the energy board to release the company from its obligation to power crypto miners in the province.
Hydro-Québec allocated 270 megawatts toward the mining firms,
but electricity demand in Québec is expected to grow to a point that powering crypto will put pressure on the energy supplier.

The report Hydro-Québec filed with the government’s energy board on Nov. 1 said temporarily reducing the power provided to mining firms could help prevent threats to the “reliability and security” of energy for Québec residents.

[Flexystar]

I hope Bitcoin stays a PoW coin even if that means a full ban from the EU (and possibly the US). Decentralization needs to prevail in order to help bring people with true financial freedom. How would Bitcoin strive to be different from Fiat if it sacrifices decentralization in favor of performance and cost-efficiency? No one knows what will governments will come up with next, so we should be prepared for the worst. Just my opinion

I don’t want to escalate my thoughts to this level because no one can really digest the fact that bitcoin getting turned into PoS mechanism. First of all big institutions whose holding millions of bitcoins can easily control the market if stake based system is imposed. Plus it will be very complicated to make it stake based considering Mr Satoshi is holding pretty good amount of bitcoins and thus it could put everything into jeopardy if someday they stepped in and started selling. I am not sure if that’s how staked will work but in as common user that’s terrifying thought.

[Abiky]

Don't forget to add Canada to the list. 

https://cointelegraph.com/news/quebec-s-energy-manager-to-seek-government-approval-to-stop-powering-crypto-miners

I'm not surprised. With rising energy costs worldwide, it's expected most countries will turn their stance against PoW mining. That means Bitcoin will have a smaller network hashrate in the future, resulting in lesser security against external attacks. Unless all of the miners switch to alternative energy sources, don't expect things to get better anytime soon. I just hope the US doesn't join Canada and the EU in banning PoW mining, since most of the network hashrate comes from there (as far as I know).

Imagine how disastrous would be for Bitcoin if a global superpower like the US decides to ban PoW mining to pursue its "green energy" agenda. That would influence more countries to do the same. ETH and other major cryptocurrencies have turned themselves to PoS, so we're going to have to see whenever Bitcoin will remain PoW for long or at least switch to a hybrid consensus algorithm (PoW + PoS). No one knows what's going to happen in the future, so we can only hope for the best.

I don’t want to escalate my thoughts to this level because no one can really digest the fact that bitcoin getting turned into PoS mechanism. First of all big institutions whose holding millions of bitcoins can easily control the market if stake based system is imposed. Plus it will be very complicated to make it stake based considering Mr Satoshi is holding pretty good amount of bitcoins and thus it could put everything into jeopardy if someday they stepped in and started selling. I am not sure if that’s how staked will work but in as common user that’s terrifying thought.

To explain it simply, PoS is VERY bad for Bitcoin and shouldn't be adopted by the community in the first place. A hybrid approach (PoW + PoS) would be better as it would allow Bitcoin to remain decentralized while also being friendly to the environment. It would be just like how Peercoin (PPC) is today. You can see how destructive PoS or any of its variants can be (such as DPoS) when only a few control a large portion of the cryptocurrency's circulating supply. A PoS-only blockchain network would make big exchanges like Binance and Coinbase more powerful then what they are right now. These companies would use customer's holdings to make key decisions on the Blockchain. Instead of a person being the "shareholder" of the company (in this case, the Blockchain), the wealthy would be able to do as they wish with their money. It's a terrible concept that leads us back to the traditional world of banking.

Unfortunately, ETH has lost its luster by defecting to PoS. Most of the altcoins have abandoned PoW, so it seems that Bitcoin would remain as the sole PoW cryptocurrency in the world. I wouldn't mind about this as long as decentralization wins in the end. Just my thoughts

[DanWalker]

It should be fossil fuel ban for sure, not bitcoin mining ban.

It's a bitcoin mining ban, although Europe has stored enough gas for this winter, if the climate changes abnormally, they will still be short of gas, so limiting energy use is extremely urgent now. Traditional manufacturing companies have also had to close due to lack of energy, so their ban on bitcoin mining is understandable. But what worries me is whether when the gas supply returns to normal, the energy stabilizes, will these mining bans be lifted or will they stay in place forever? because they always put the thing that bitcoin consumes energy and that is an excuse for them to find a way to get rid of bitcoin, they always wanted to do this before the crisis hit.

[taufik123]

-snip- The question is is there a way to shift POW to POS without any significant impact for bitcoin.

Any move will have an impact, switching Bitcoin POW to POS is stupid. Bitcoin can even switch to POS at any time, but is that the best way?
Please note, when Bitcoin is transferred to POS, bitcoin is no longer decentralized, POS only changes bitcoin to be centralized and that is not the purpose of bitcoin.

There's nothing wrong with using POW for bitcoin anyway, POW is even more powerful than POS even though it uses more energy. Each Technology has its own risks, PoW and PoS networks are equally vulnerable to Denia of Service (DoS) attacks.

A weakness in the PoW networks specifically is the Selfish Mining attack, a condition in which attackers broadcast picky blocks to waste the computing power of honest miners.

A weakness in the PoS networkis that it is vulnerable to Bribe Attack attacks. In this condition, the attacker makes transactions and then builds a secret alternative chain before the block contains the transaction. Furthermore, after the transaction is confirmed, the attacker's alternative chain becomes longer than the valid chain where the attacker will broadcast the alternative chain. As a result, the alternative chain will be accepted as a new chain and considered valid then the attacker's transaction is reversed.

If bitcoin wants to remain decentralized then PoW is the perfect network.
The use of a lot of energy can be overcome by using environmentally friendly and renewable energy, it will be a good solution instead of having to move to a PoS network which is certainly more centralized.

[LegendaryK]

-snip- The question is is there a way to shift POW to POS without any significant impact for bitcoin.

Any move will have an impact, switching Bitcoin POW to POS is stupid. Bitcoin can even switch to POS at any time, but is that the best way?
Please note, when Bitcoin is transferred to POS, bitcoin is no longer decentralized, POS only changes bitcoin to be centralized and that is not the purpose of bitcoin.

There's nothing wrong with using POW for bitcoin anyway, POW is even more powerful than POS even though it uses more energy. Each Technology has its own risks, PoW and PoS networks are equally vulnerable to Denia of Service (DoS) attacks.

A weakness in the PoW networks specifically is the Selfish Mining attack, a condition in which attackers broadcast picky blocks to waste the computing power of honest miners.

A weakness in the PoS networkis that it is vulnerable to Bribe Attack attacks. In this condition, the attacker makes transactions and then builds a secret alternative chain before the block contains the transaction. Furthermore, after the transaction is confirmed, the attacker's alternative chain becomes longer than the valid chain where the attacker will broadcast the alternative chain. As a result, the alternative chain will be accepted as a new chain and considered valid then the attacker's transaction is reversed.

If bitcoin wants to remain decentralized then PoW is the perfect network.
The use of a lot of energy can be overcome by using environmentally friendly and renewable energy, it will be a good solution instead of having to move to a PoS network which is certainly more centralized.

Any PoS coin network that has 5 people controlling over 51% of the stake is more decentralized than Bitcoin where only 4 people (mining pool operators) control over 51% of the hashrate.

The so-called bribe attack is pure nonsense. You basically created a calculations on future variables that eats up more CPU & Ram ,
in other words you created a PoW in PoS, that literally gains you nothing except more wasted energy.
You might want to actually read up on PoS.

PoS:
Staking coins compete to create the next block based on the code parameters , which different PoS coins use different code.
Staking coins go dormant, after stake decreasing % , so more than 51% is needed to attack.
Staking coins can earn rewards, transaction fees can be earned or burned depending on specific PoS code.
*Specfic to Ethereum PoS code, if you attempt a 51% attack all of your coins will self-destruct.*

PoW:
Wastes enough energy to make a Grid unstable, which sets it up to be banned by Governments
Only takes the Collusion of 4 people (mining pool operators) to 51% attack for the last few years.
As PoW rewards drop, the incentive to selfish mine and collude in BTC increases.
No Limits on how long a 51% attack can last.

Bitcoin lack of leadership , means their is no one to coordinate a successful conversion to PoS.
Which would take years, as their are multiple decisions to be made and no one to make them.

[franky1]

bitcoin at 260exa is ~2m asics of 3kw= 6gw/hour world wide
quebecs 320mw is 106,000 asics

here is the thing.
electric cars use 1kw/4 miles so an average car doing 12 miles a day
(im using low numbers on purpose)
3kw a day.
which if say there was just 4 million car drivers in quebec
(im using low numbers on purpose)
is 12GW/day = 500mw/hour

so if quebec cannot cope with 320mw. then it definitely cant cope with 4million car drivers in coming years..

and thats even on reserved low numbers.. yep car industry would use more then bitcoin does in quebec

oh and by the way average car mileage per day is higher and there are more then 4m car drivers in quebec.

[tygeade]

~snip

The renewable energy solution is something for all the things that spend energy in the world and yet we are still not moving fast enough. Maybe not many people will agree with me here, but for the past 20 years we are going towards an unrecoverable climate change which is ruining the world, and two things are the main cause of it.

One of them is spending energy that we do not have, and then creating it from fossil fuel, and the second one is pollution which is of course directly related. If we could end up with something that is a bit cleaner then we would have been at least not go beyond unrecoverable levels, but we didn't and now its too late, humanity will face a huge crisis and everything will be worse.

[Abiky]

It's a bitcoin mining ban, although Europe has stored enough gas for this winter, if the climate changes abnormally, they will still be short of gas, so limiting energy use is extremely urgent now. Traditional manufacturing companies have also had to close due to lack of energy, so their ban on bitcoin mining is understandable. But what worries me is whether when the gas supply returns to normal, the energy stabilizes, will these mining bans be lifted or will they stay in place forever? because they always put the thing that bitcoin consumes energy and that is an excuse for them to find a way to get rid of bitcoin, they always wanted to do this before the crisis hit.

We're going to have to see whenever the EU will lift the ban after it becomes energy-independent or leave everything as is. It seems to me that this is nothing more than an excuse to get rid of Bitcoin for good. After all, governments don't want people using Bitcoin on top of Fiat. Effectively, Bitcoin strips away governments' control over people's finances by eliminating the middleman (which has always been banks). I wouldn't be surprised if other countries join the "green energy" narrative in order to minimize Bitcoin's preeminence in the mainstream world.

Fear not, as not every one will be completely against Bitcoin. There will be a few countries that will still support it no matter what. I'd expect PoW's lifespan to prolong itself because of this. Other coins may turn to PoS as they won't be able to handle the pressure. You can see why ETH pleased the regulators by becoming a PoS blockchain right after sanctions were implemented on the Tornado.Cash mixing protocol. Imagine what would be of crypto/Blockchain land if 99.99% of the coins turn to PoS. It will be a centralized playground for governments and central banks alike. At least, Bitcoin won't be going anywhere. As long as it stays decentralized, there should be nothing to worry about. Just my thoughts

[LegendaryK]

Imagine what would be of crypto/Blockchain land if 99.99% of the coins turn to PoS. It will be a centralized playground for governments and central banks alike. At least, Bitcoin won't be going anywhere. As long as it stays decentralized, there should be nothing to worry about. Just my thoughts

Every coin that wants to survive the PoW bans will convert to PoS or a token.
Bitcoin is leaderless, so becoming a token on ethereum or cardano will be it's only chance for survival.

Bitcoin is in Danger of having DAR added to it's code, which would allow the world governments to censor all transactions they did not like,
and allow coin seizure of bitcoins with a court order. So Censorship resistance and decentralized will be meaningless.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5420975.0

[LegendaryK]

UPDATE on the Growing PoW bans.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/23/new-york-governor-signs-law-cracking-down-on-bitcoin-mining.html

New York's Gov. Kathy Hochul signed into law Tuesday a two-year moratorium on proof-of-work (PoW) cryptocurrency mining.

Any PoW Miner not currently running on 100% renewals , will also not have their license renewed.
So even present PoW miners will be kicked out as their licenses expire.

Industry insiders tell CNBC it could have a domino effect across the U.S.
“Not only is it a clear signal that New York is closed for business to bitcoin miners, it sets a dangerous precedent for singling out a particular industry to ban from energy usage,”

FYI: As if the growing input costs and missing venture capital were not becoming a bigger issue.
https://protos.com/pressured-bitcoin-miners-cant-sell-the-dip-fast-enough/

The liquidity crisis in the bitcoin mining industry shows no sign of letting up. Indeed, statistics show that bitcoin miners are selling their coins at record levels last seen in 2016.

An investigation by Protos in October showed that most big mining players in the US are facing severe financial pressure, with some like Riot Blockchain being considerably underwater. Bitcoin miners’ daily revenue is currently sitting at 2020 levels or around $13.53 million every day.

Glassnode Analytics has also published figures showing that to cover costs, miners are selling more bitcoin than they’re mining.

Bitcoin mining hash rate is still at historic highs but this statistic could potentially be a bad sign when we consider current market conditions and other factors. Ever since China banned bitcoin, the hash rate in the US has increased, a development that has pushed up bitcoin’s overall energy costs, even in relative terms.

And while other countries, including Kazakhstan, Ireland, Canada, Germany, and Russia have decreased their hash rate, the bitcoin mining rate in the US is at record levels.

The biggest mining pool in the US, Foundry US, is a subsidiary of Digital Currency Group (DCG), which is currently in trouble over its bankrupt trading firm Genesis. DCG could cause widespread chaos in the market if it’s seen to be under critical financial duress with its most popular product, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC), trading at a 42% discount to bitcoin’s price.

* Note: The liquidity crisis is caused by the baby boomer portfolio transition into safer investments like cash, which is why VC money is drying up. *

[LegendaryK]

https://abc13.com/houston-boil-water-notice-city-of-plant-power-outage-what-to-do-under/12502921/

HOUSTON, Texas (KTRK) -- A boil water notice has been issued for the City of Houston's main water system after a water treatment plant experienced a power outage Sunday morning.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/houston-issues-boil-water-notice-after-treatment-plant-power-outage-2022-11-28/

A ground trip and current overload caused a transformers and an electric feeder to go offline and a backup transformer at a water purification plant failed

Texas is now suffering from Bitcoin PoW miners making their grid unstable.

https://www.thestreet.com/crypto/bitcoin/crypto-mining-strains-energy-grid-and-creates-fresh-demands-for-housing-in-texas

This will put a massive amount of stress on the Texas energy grid," William Magnuson, an expert in cryptocurrency and the law at the Texas A&M Law School told CBS News. "We know the Texas energy grid has had its struggles in the last couple of years, so I do worry about the effects of imposing massive new energy use on a grid that we know is has been relatively unstable."

[Abiky]

Every coin that wants to survive the PoW bans will convert to PoS or a token.
Bitcoin is leaderless, so becoming a token on ethereum or cardano will be it's only chance for survival.

Bitcoin is in Danger of having DAR added to it's code, which would allow the world governments to censor all transactions they did not like,
and allow coin seizure of bitcoins with a court order. So Censorship resistance and decentralized will be meaningless.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5420975.0

I don't think miners or the community as a whole will approve the transition from PoW to PoS within the BTC blockchain (even if developers decide to change the code someday). Such a move will destroy everything Bitcoin has a achieved so far (which is decentralization and censorship-resistance). What might happen is that Bitcoin will split into two currencies, leaving us with Bitcoin Core (PoW) and a PoS version of the Bitcoin blockchain. It'll be just like what happened with the block size debate where Bitcoin was split into both Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Cash.

Like it or not, the original chain will remain PoW even if the vast majority of crypto defect to PoS. Just because governments (especially those within the EU bloc) are pushing towards PoS, doesn't mean Bitcoin has to do it. I'd prefer Bitcoin to become the opposition than sacrificing its decentralization by satisfying governments' demands. Considering that the community won't allow BTC to turn to PoS, we should expect further opposition from the EU and other countries over time. I'm fine with that as long as Bitcoin remains an unstoppable cryptocurrency. Just my opinion

[NotATether]

I hope you guys enjoyed the weekly Alex Jones crypto podcast, because now it's time to throw some real facts into the thread.

New York's Gov. Kathy Hochul signed into law Tuesday a two-year moratorium on proof-of-work (PoW) cryptocurrency mining.

LOL. This is like the 10th time New York tries to ban crypto mining. It cannot be stopped by anyone, certainly not by New York.

Texas is now suffering from Bitcoin PoW miners making their grid unstable.

And you can support the Texas municipalities in their fight against PoW by opening a power station there. They say everything's bigger in Texas, you know.

Just to warn you, that also means you'll also get a torrent of mining farms applying for energy contracts with your utility.

[Blawpaw]

This is still a proposal, and is still not in effect. Nevertheless, if this goes ahead, of course that it will have its implications, but as long as miners can find renewable energies, they will be alloewd to mine. so it is very important to understand how this ban will be applied. On the other hand, this will also give a bigger incentive for miners to try and find new renewable energy alternatives.

[fennic]

in the past we have seen the ban of mining in China that was an huge amount of hashrate.
miners have just relocated their operations or sold their mining equipments to other users.
For what I have seen price has been interested in a short timeframe but after while this has not any real impact.

In this case, there is just a tiny amount, I don't see any real threat for btc price.

This is a Cryptocurrency market and that is ultra Volatile.
And now this is Bear market and they will do make these kinds of news by bribery cause they have money and they can do any kind of Fud. Firstly they made Fud of China wants to ban Bitcoin mining and Now Europe. Mostly these mining farms are private and They cannot find everyone.

[rendravolt]

This is still a proposal, and is still not in effect. Nevertheless, if this foes ahead, of course that it will have its implications, but as long as miners can find renewable energies, they will be alloewd to mine. so it is very important to understand how this ban will be applied. On the other hand, this will also give a bigger incentive for miners to try and find new renewable energy alternatives.

The problem of alternative renewable energy currently has no solution, most miners still depend on electricity which is so expensive. Indications of the involvement of the government and miners are likely to be pros and cons that will not be resolved, considering that bitcoin is often used as a scapegoat for problems that befall a country in financial terms. That's why bitcoin bans in several countries will continue to appear because there is no solution to this problem and this is very detrimental for some miners.

[zasad@]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-30/crypto-lenders-woes-worsen-as-bitcoin-btc-miners-struggle-to-repay-debt?
"Miners, who raised as much as $4 billion from mining-equipment financing when profit margins were as high as 90%, are defaulting on loans and sending hundreds of thousands of machines that served as collateral back to lenders. New York Digital Investment Group, Celsius Network, BlockFi Inc., Galaxy Digital, and the Foundry unit of Digital Currency Group were among the biggest providers of funding to finance computer equipment and build data centers."

[RockBell]

Since mining farms require reliable and affordable electricity, the EU's energy crisis and rising prices are particularly uncomfortable for miners, who are forced to close certain businesses in order to reduce grid pull. I don't think the EU made a good decision there; I believe they should have increased power generation. With this legislative action, I believe it will be difficult for miners to migrate because the laws are lax there in Europe; Africa is not the best place for miners because electricity there is expensive and there is sometimes theft. And one of the best options is el Salvador which depends more on natural energy the government over there has embraced bitcoin already it will be much more conducive for miners.

[okorieemmanuel]

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/10/18/eu-countries-must-be-ready-to-block-crypto-mining-commission-says/
EU Countries Must Be Ready to Block Crypto Mining, Commission Says
"The European Union's executive arm also wants blockchains to show energy-efficiency labels and to end crypto tax breaks.
Europe represents 10% of global proof-of-work mining"

Can this affect the price of bitcoin or is this another anti-mining statement?

This is clearly not fair for bitcoin miners and it is definitely another anti mining statement. To purchase a complete mining rig and mine bitcoin there is stressful and may not be profitable when considering the ever increasing bitcoin difficulty and energy rate. There have to be a form of balance. This is just not it. Let's Say no to anti mining policy!