Foundation Devices 'Passport Batch 2' hardware wallet review

[dkbit98]

Seed XOR and BIP 85

I think this is available only on ColdCard hardware wallet, and they have everything in CommonClause license, so I am not sure what license is for Seed XOR.
We all know they don't like anyone using their code, and some other wallets are using other ways to split seed words with Shamir Secret Sharing (Trezor T, Keystone, etc).
I think that multisig is much better than both of this seed splitting implementations.

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

This could be memory limitation related thing, but it's best to confirm this with developers.
I know that Trezor (and I think ledger) also have limited number of accounts you can create.

I'd still like to see them get external security audits done; not sure if they've done anything like that. It's usually quite expensive and with FE only having sold 1000 units total, I don't know that you can afford that at such small scale. But this is a security device so it should be a very high priority, now that they (hopefully) sell lots more devices with Batch 2 and onwards.

I think we all realize that you need to make big sponsorship and partnership with lot of third parties if you want to have big sales like ledger.
In return ledger is going to send them everything they ask, and they will add any shitcoins they pay for.
Passport only supports Bitcoin, so ponzi scammers like Sam Bankman can't promote their crap.

[1713507974]

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[1713507974]

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[n0nce]

Seed XOR and BIP 85

I think this is available only on ColdCard hardware wallet, and they have everything in CommonClause license, so I am not sure what license is for Seed XOR.

Yeah, it's a ColdCard invention, but I think only the code is protected by the CC license. Other manufacturers would need to reimplement it; even though it will do the same thing and run on the same (or similar) chip, they'll need to rewrite it. I don't understand the sense behind that either.

I think that multisig is much better than both of this seed splitting implementations.

Yes, especially with Taproot. Which is a standardized protocol; so you're not 'vendor-locked' and profit from all other benefits of such a standard. Therefore I'm hoping for quick Taproot integration on Passport. Especially since multisig is so fun to do with 2 or more Passports...

I think we all realize that you need to make big sponsorship and partnership with lot of third parties if you want to have big sales like ledger.
In return ledger is going to send them everything they ask, and they will add any shitcoins they pay for.
Passport only supports Bitcoin, so ponzi scammers like Sam Bankman can't promote their crap.

I believe and hope that businesses can be successful without selling out and giving away customer data & privacy.
Honestly, with this angle, it's not too bad that Foundation Devices can't offer a Black Friday discount. You do get a T-Shirt, though!

Happy Thanksgiving from the Foundation team
Our Black Friday deal is now live! Buy a Passport and receive a free limited edition t-shirt
Automatically applied to your shopping cart during checkout. foundationdevices.com

I like this comment that they reposted:

I was only waiting for one Black Friday sale this year.
But I decided that if they offered a deep discount, I *wouldn’t* buy.
They passed the test.
I’ve found that the best products usually don’t go on sale!

[dkbit98]

Honestly, with this angle, it's not too bad that they can't offer a Black Friday discount. You do get a T-Shirt, though!

Nah, I don't want to wear T-shirt like this, but I think they already gave a big discount to everyone who participated in Batch2 presale, and you had to wait a long to to receive it
I do like discounts and I think that Keystone did a great job this season of Black Friday, maybe because they started working on new generation device so they need founding.
I am excited to see how hardware wallet market will change in future, with Block wallet and Trezor Gen2 wallet releases probably coming out in next year or two.

[n0nce]

Honestly, with this angle, it's not too bad that they can't offer a Black Friday discount. You do get a T-Shirt, though!

Nah, I don't want to wear T-shirt like this, but I think they already gave a big discount to everyone who participated in Batch2 presale, and you had to wait a long to to receive it

I don't wear Bitcoin-related shirts either (terrible opsec), but it's a nice gesture and I prefer them putting the money to good use.
Large discounts also sometimes feel like you're overpaying on the device on non-deal days / parts of the year and make the device seem more overpriced.
I.e.; if they sold it for $200 during this weekend, you could come to the conclusion: 'If they can make a profit off a $200 device, why can't they always sell it for $200?'

I do like discounts and I think that Keystone did a great job this season of Black Friday, maybe because they started working on new generation device so they need founding.

Like I posted in the other thread, FD's EU reseller is getting rid of Founders Edition units, to make space for Batch 2 stock; such sales do make more sense.

[dkbit98]

I don't wear Bitcoin-related shirts either (terrible opsec), but it's a nice gesture and I prefer them putting the money to good use.

This shirt doesn't have any Bitcoin prints on it, it looks more like you came back from the past and promoting some old Nokia style phones 

[RickDeckard]

I.e.; if they sold it for $200 during this weekend, you could come to the conclusion: 'If they can make a profit off a $200 device, why can't they always sell it for $200?'

Just a side note - some companies do have a marketing strategy to run some campaigns at a loss. See the recent Pixel phones that have lower price tags than similar phones due to the fact that they prefer to loose some money on each sale but reach a wider audience and attract more customers to their platform. There's also the example where supermarkets have the so called "loss leaders"[1].

Still, we're talking about corporations that are already well setup in their organization to support these losses - which isn't the case for the Foundation devices. I'm really liking their products and mission, I hope they keep walking the same path!
[1]https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lossleader.asp

[Pmalek]

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

Does one account need to be funded before you can create a 2nd and 3rd one or can I simply jump to the 7th one if I wanted to? Maybe if at least one address from the first 10 accounts has been funded, you get a new set of 10 accounts or something like that. But if not, I am sure that adding a passphrase opens up new account possibilities.

I know that Trezor (and I think ledger) also have limited number of accounts you can create.

I haven't heard of such limitations with Ledger. But what I mentioned above is true. An address from native segwit account #1 needs to be funded before you can create native segwit account #2, etc.

[n0nce]

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

Does one account need to be funded before you can create a 2nd and 3rd one or can I simply jump to the 7th one if I wanted to? Maybe if at least one address from the first 10 accounts has been funded, you get a new set of 10 accounts or something like that. But if not, I am sure that adding a passphrase opens up new account possibilities.

I'm pretty sure you can just remove an 'account' (just a different derivation path) - no matter if funded or not - and add a different one. You can always add the removed account back and sign transactions from it.

[dkbit98]

Just a side note - some companies do have a marketing strategy to run some campaigns at a loss. See the recent Pixel phones that have lower price tags than similar phones due to the fact that they prefer to loose some money on each sale but reach a wider audience and attract more customers to their platform. There's also the example where supermarkets have the so called "loss leaders

n0nce had a good idea that Foundation could make big discounts for improved Foundations edition.
This could be similar like Google is doing with their Pixel line, they have regular and pro version, but later they release version A that usually has cheaper materials and it's smaller in size.
I think that Samsung phones has a lot of budget phones they lose money on, but biggest profit is coming from their flagship models.

[n0nce]

Little PSA here. I already mentioned that you can get basically 10% off by buying CoinCards gift cards for the Foundation Devices shop.
Now they're also available on the (probably more popular) Bitrefill website and in the The Bitcoin Company app.

Note that in the latter 2, that's in form of a 'cashback', which (as far as I know) cannot be withdrawn.
So you'd spend e.g. $260 on a Passport and get $26 in Bitrefill rewards balance that you could use to buy an Amazon gift card or whatever you like. You don't just get to pay 234$.

Also do note that anything I post is unsponsored, unaffiliated, and I gain nothing from these links (hover / copy to check ). Just want to make sure in case it's not obvious..

[n0nce]

I just had a look at what's been going on in the GitHub v2.0.5 developer branch and it seems they're working hard on the camera, but in general put in a ton of work, comparing to v2.0.4.
Yet another point for open-source: you get to see what they're working on, what they changed and what kind of progress they're making.

• We can see here that various changes to the camera parameters, like resolution and framebuffer have been made.
  
• Some work on the mono version of the firmware (for the Founders Edition): here, here and many other commits.
  
• I don't have the full overview of the codebase, but it seems to me that this will allow either users to zoom in / out or it's just to make changing camera size easier in the software. Anyhow; more camera work being done.
  
• It will also be possible to modify the screen brightness of any QR code. I believe so far, that only worked for transactions (PSBTs), but not e.g. for the setup data that you can send to your software wallet client through a QR.
  
• It also seems like you will be able to navigate from the last card in the menu to the first, without going back manually through every page, by 'looping' over.
  
• There is also some new documentation about generating a developer public key and uploading it to the device; I did it previously on my own and it wasn't hard, but I can see how this comes in handy if you've never done such thing before.
  
• I'm not a fan of how they use printf - debugging!
  
• I hope this was just for debugging and will be changed back immediately. Why would they switch to MCU RNG instead of using the Avalanche noise circuit?
  
• Apparently, you will also be able to view your active seed phrase when displaying your seed words: here.
  

  
There are also tons and tons of bug fixes; most of the bugs mentioned I've never experienced, though. I'm still excited to follow the progress and see how the v2.0.5 release will turn out.

[dkbit98]

I just had a look at what's been going on in the GitHub v2.0.5 developer branch and it seems they're working hard on the camera, but in general put in a ton of work, comparing to v2.0.4.
Yet another point for open-source: you get to see what they're working on, what they changed and what kind of progress they're making.

Maybe they saw your review and listen to suggestions you gave them
How is your Passport camera working now with batch2 and for scanning QR codes?
They are probably trying to improve something and maybe even preparing for some new batches that are coming in future.

[n0nce]

I just had a look at what's been going on in the GitHub v2.0.5 developer branch and it seems they're working hard on the camera, but in general put in a ton of work, comparing to v2.0.4.
Yet another point for open-source: you get to see what they're working on, what they changed and what kind of progress they're making.

Maybe they saw your review and listen to suggestions you gave them

I didn't get a reply to my questions (in the start post), so I'm not sure.

How is your Passport camera working now with batch2 and for scanning QR codes?

The camera is always the same; the review was made with v2.0.4 and the v2.0.5 hasn't been released yet. I will try it whenever they upload a beta release.

However it was somewhat fixed with the latest Sparrow release. The animated QR codes contain less data each, making it easier for the camera to recognize them.

They are probably trying to improve something and maybe even preparing for some new batches that are coming in future.

I hope that they can do a 'budget batch' next and keep selling Batch 2, focusing on polishing the firmware instead.

[DireWolfM14]

Thanks, n0nce.  I've been waiting for your review of Batch 2, and you did a great job.

I'm way more comfortable using a more complex device password and more complex passphrase on this, due to being so comfortable and quick to enter them.

It's been over a month since I played with the simulator, and I don't remember if I messed around with passphrases.  Is entering passphrases similar to typing on a keypad the way we used to when texting on flip phones?  I know there's a "predictive" text feature for entering seed phrases, but those words are drawn from a list so I don't imagine that would work for passphrases with dispersed capital letters and special characters.

This is actually one of the few complaints I have about the ColdCard; to type in passphrases you need to scroll through the whole alphabet, numbers, and the list of special characters to get a passphrase entered.  It can take several minutes to do so carefully with my more complex phrases.

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

This is weird, but it begs the question: What constitutes an "Account?"  Most software and hardware wallets create accounts by taking the next derivation path in the sequence, but then later you mentioned that the Passport allows custom derivation paths.  Is there a limit to the number of passphrases you can use?

[n0nce]

Thanks, n0nce.  I've been waiting for your review of Batch 2, and you did a great job.

Sorry for taking so long!

I'm way more comfortable using a more complex device password and more complex passphrase on this, due to being so comfortable and quick to enter them.

It's been over a month since I played with the simulator, and I don't remember if I messed around with passphrases.  Is entering passphrases similar to typing on a keypad the way we used to when texting on flip phones?  I know there's a "predictive" text feature for entering seed phrases, but those words are drawn from a list so I don't imagine that would work for passphrases with dispersed capital letters and special characters.

It's not T9. So, not 'predictive'. I did have phones that either didn't have T9 or where it didn't work; therefore this method of clicking a key multiple times to reach the desired letter, was familiar to me. You have a dedicated key that cycles the keyboard through lower-case, upper-case and numbers.

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

This is weird, but it begs the question: What constitutes an "Account?"  Most software and hardware wallets create accounts by taking the next derivation path in the sequence, but then later you mentioned that the Passport allows custom derivation paths.

An account is just another derivation path. You can choose any derivation path you like, but only have 10 accounts 'active' at one time. If you don't need one anymore, you can delete it and add another one. The 'deleted' account can obviously be retrieved back by opening a 'new' account with that same old derivation path.

I'm pretty sure this is to make the device more responsive. I noticed that I can sign a transaction for my second account even when opening the camera from the first account page; probably, the device checks by itself which private key is needed to sign the PSBT. This makes it more convenient / compensates for user error. However, I can imagine that if you allowed to have hundreds of accounts open at one time, it could slow down the process, due to having to find the right account to sign the PSBT in question.

Is there a limit to the number of passphrases you can use?

I don't think so, no.

[DireWolfM14]

Thanks, n0nce.  I've been waiting for your review of Batch 2, and you did a great job.

Sorry for taking so long!

No problem, I wasn't in a hurry anyway.  I'll be ordering one this month, but realistically I don't need it.  I've been really pleased with my ColdCard which I purchased the past summer, and I also have both flavors of Trezor's wallets, so I feel pretty confident in my security.  The Passport does have some features which I would appreciate and can easily see replacing the ColdCard as my daily driver.

I'm way more comfortable using a more complex device password and more complex passphrase on this, due to being so comfortable and quick to enter them.

It's been over a month since I played with the simulator, and I don't remember if I messed around with passphrases.  Is entering passphrases similar to typing on a keypad the way we used to when texting on flip phones?  I know there's a "predictive" text feature for entering seed phrases, but those words are drawn from a list so I don't imagine that would work for passphrases with dispersed capital letters and special characters.

It's not T9. So, not 'predictive'. I did have phones that either didn't have T9 or where it didn't work; therefore this method of clicking a key multiple times to reach the desired letter, was familiar to me. You have a dedicated key that cycles the keyboard through lower-case, upper-case and numbers.

Sounds like the same way passphrases are entered into the ColdCard.  It's not the worst thing, but I do have some long, complex passphrases and I am prone to making errors. 

Also, is there any reason there has to be a ten account limit?

This is weird, but it begs the question: What constitutes an "Account?"  Most software and hardware wallets create accounts by taking the next derivation path in the sequence, but then later you mentioned that the Passport allows custom derivation paths.

An account is just another derivation path. You can choose any derivation path you like, but only have 10 accounts 'active' at one time. If you don't need one anymore, you can delete it and add another one. The 'deleted' account can obviously be retrieved back by opening a 'new' account with that same old derivation path.

I'm pretty sure this is to make the device more responsive. I noticed that I can sign a transaction for my second account even when opening the camera from the first account page; probably, the device checks by itself which private key is needed to sign the PSBT. This makes it more convenient / compensates for user error. However, I can imagine that if you allowed to have hundreds of accounts open at one time, it could slow down the process, due to having to find the right account to sign the PSBT in question.

That makes sense.  meerabhai's comment about account limits had me confused since I expected accounts to be handled by derivation paths.

Is there a limit to the number of passphrases you can use?

I don't think so, no.

That also makes sense and it's what I would expect since passphrases aren't (or shouldn't be) stored in persistent memory.

[n0nce]

I've been really pleased with my ColdCard which I purchased the past summer, and I also have both flavors of Trezor's wallets, so I feel pretty confident in my security.  The Passport does have some features which I would appreciate and can easily see replacing the ColdCard as my daily driver.

I'm curious now: daily driver, but only in conjunction with a PC / laptop, right? Since ColdCard has no battery & no camera.

I personally find airgap using microSD cards very impractical; less practical than USB wallets even, since I more likely have a microUSB cable with me than a microSD card reader. That's why the camera is such a deal breaker. Add to that the ability to use it with any mobile device, makes it the perfect everyday wallet. I'm sure you will love it!

It's not T9. So, not 'predictive'. I did have phones that either didn't have T9 or where it didn't work; therefore this method of clicking a key multiple times to reach the desired letter, was familiar to me. You have a dedicated key that cycles the keyboard through lower-case, upper-case and numbers.

Sounds like the same way passphrases are entered into the ColdCard.  It's not the worst thing, but I do have some long, complex passphrases and I am prone to making errors. 

Oh really? I didn't know that. I don't have a ColdCard to compare with, but I feel this way of typing is still very fast; I'm sure the shape & size of both Passports (+ good large screen) also plays a role in improving that.

That also makes sense and it's what I would expect since passphrases aren't (or shouldn't be) stored in persistent memory.

Exactly.

[DireWolfM14]

I've been really pleased with my ColdCard which I purchased the past summer, and I also have both flavors of Trezor's wallets, so I feel pretty confident in my security.  The Passport does have some features which I would appreciate and can easily see replacing the ColdCard as my daily driver.

I'm curious now: daily driver, but only in conjunction with a PC / laptop, right? Since ColdCard has no battery & no camera.

I personally find airgap using microSD cards very impractical; less practical than USB wallets even, since I more likely have a microUSB cable with me than a microSD card reader. That's why the camera is such a deal breaker. Add to that the ability to use it with any mobile device, makes it the perfect everyday wallet. I'm sure you will love it!

Yes, to your first question, kinda sorta.  The Mk3 works as you describe and so can the Mk4, but all it really needs is a power source.  With the adequate cable you can power it up from a phone, or a small usb battery.

I only own a Mk4, which again, can work the same way, but it has the ability to generate QR codes (not sure if the Mk3 can or not.)  The Mk4 can also work as a typical USB-connected hardware wallet if one chooses.  I prefer to keep mine on the default setting of using the mSD card.  

As for the ColdCard's QR codes; I can't read them with the cheap webcam I have on my desktop, but the laptop camera can read them.  I haven't tried on the phone, I only have hot wallets on that device, but I doubt that it's cameras would have any trouble.  The addition of a camera and a larger screen would be a worthwhile improvement for the Mk5.  

It's not T9. So, not 'predictive'. I did have phones that either didn't have T9 or where it didn't work; therefore this method of clicking a key multiple times to reach the desired letter, was familiar to me. You have a dedicated key that cycles the keyboard through lower-case, upper-case and numbers.

Sounds like the same way passphrases are entered into the ColdCard.  It's not the worst thing, but I do have some long, complex passphrases and I am prone to making errors.  

Oh really? I didn't know that. I don't have a ColdCard to compare with, but I feel this way of typing is still very fast; I'm sure the shape & size of both Passports (+ good large screen) also plays a role in improving that.

If I'm understanding you correctly.  There are two dedicated keys to scroll through the alphabet, you can switch between caps without losing your place and a setting to scroll through special characters.

[dkbit98]

I personally find airgap using microSD cards very impractical; less practical than USB wallets even, since I more likely have a microUSB cable with me than a microSD card reader.

You know that you can easily buy cheap microSD to USB adapter for few bucks?
Just insert SDcard and you will have double functionality, that looks and works the same way as regular USD stick.

The addition of a camera and a larger screen would be a worthwhile improvement for the Mk5.  

Are they really working on new Coldcard Mk5 model or this is only wishful thinking?
I think I saw someone asking them this question recently and I they said something like, dude we just released Mk4 and you are already asking as for new model
But let's be honest, market of hardware wallet is evolving quickly and if they don't keep up they could soon be irrelevant for most people, except maybe geeks, and that can be said for all other hardware wallets.

[DireWolfM14]

Are they really working on new Coldcard Mk5 model or this is only wishful thinking?

Not that I know of, just wishful thinking.  But you know what they say about being in business for yourself; if you're not growing your business your actually shrinking it.  There's no such thing as being stagnant. 

But let's be honest, market of hardware wallet is evolving quickly and if they don't keep up they could soon be irrelevant for most people, except maybe geeks, and that can be said for all other hardware wallets.

Absolutely.  As has been demonstrated by new arrivals like the Foundation Passport, the market is ready for upgrades and new innovation, and accommodating of higher prices than we've seen so far.  I really like my ColdCard but to remain relevant they need to add features to their devices that make them easier to use.  A camera would fit right to their original philosophy of keeping the device air-gapped, as well.