Foundation Devices 'Passport Batch 2' hardware wallet review

[n0nce]

I only own a Mk4, which again, can work the same way, but it has the ability to generate QR codes (not sure if the Mk3 can or not.)  The Mk4 can also work as a typical USB-connected hardware wallet if one chooses.  I prefer to keep mine on the default setting of using the mSD card.

Really, MK4 has QR codes and camera? I didn't know that.
Just to clarify; to connect through USB you have to cut a trace or something like that if I remember correctly, right? Otherwise, a hack may be able to 're-enable' the USB port; something impossible on Passport since it has physically only power connections and no data lines going to the USB port.

The addition of a camera and a larger screen would be a worthwhile improvement for the Mk5. 

True! And a battery. That would make it quite similar to Passport, right?

If I'm understanding you correctly.  There are two dedicated keys to scroll through the alphabet, you can switch between caps without losing your place and a setting to scroll through special characters.

No; this button down here selects between lowercase, uppercase and numbers. If you're in 'numbers' mode and hit '3', you just get a 3. If you are in 'uppercase' and hit '3' once, you get a D; if you hit it twice, you get E and so on.

I personally find airgap using microSD cards very impractical; less practical than USB wallets even, since I more likely have a microUSB cable with me than a microSD card reader.

You know that you can easily buy cheap microSD to USB adapter for few bucks?
Just insert SDcard and you will have double functionality, that looks and works the same way as regular USD stick.

Of course; they even come with Passport Batch 2. But I would either lose them or forget to bring them with me. That's why Passport is so nice to have, all self-contained. No need for cables or cards; just need the wallet and another device. If the battery runs out, USB-C means it should be possible to find / borrow a cable somewhere. Whereas people don't have microSD card adapters with them and it's more suspicious to ask.

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[DireWolfM14]

Really, MK4 has QR codes and camera? I didn't know that.

No, it doesn't have a camera, but it does generate QR codes for addresses and signed transactions.

Just to clarify; to connect through USB you have to cut a trace or something like that if I remember correctly, right? Otherwise, a hack may be able to 're-enable' the USB port; something impossible on Passport since it has physically only power connections and no data lines going to the USB port.

To use USB connectivity you need to enable a setting on the device, that's all.  It'll work just like any typical wallet with Electrum.  With the default setting the USB port only provides power.  I tend to forget that it also has NFC capability, but I don't know of an app that I would want to use with the feature.

The addition of a camera and a larger screen would be a worthwhile improvement for the Mk5.  

True! And a battery. That would make it quite similar to Passport, right?

 

If I'm understanding you correctly.  There are two dedicated keys to scroll through the alphabet, you can switch between caps without losing your place and a setting to scroll through special characters.

No; this button down here selects between lowercase, uppercase and numbers. If you're in 'numbers' mode and hit '3', you just get a 3. If you are in 'uppercase' and hit '3' once, you get a D; if you hit it twice, you get E and so on.

Okay, now I get it, I must have misunderstood your previous post.  That's actually a much better system, and what I would have expected from the device.  

[n0nce]

Really, MK4 has QR codes and camera? I didn't know that.

No, it doesn't have a camera, but it does generate QR codes for addresses and signed transactions.

I see! Funnily enough; I can't generate addresses on the Passport (or I don't know how); you have to do it through the watch-only software wallet. You can then verify it using the Passport camera, though.
QR codes for signed PSBTs means you transfer the PSBT to the wallet using microSD and get it back, signed, through QR code? I don't see the benefit of that, since a microSD card is still involved, but good to know nonetheless.

Just to clarify; to connect through USB you have to cut a trace or something like that if I remember correctly, right? Otherwise, a hack may be able to 're-enable' the USB port; something impossible on Passport since it has physically only power connections and no data lines going to the USB port.

To use USB connectivity you need to enable a setting on the device, that's all.  It'll work just like any typical wallet with Electrum.  With the default setting the USB port only provides power.  I tend to forget that it also has NFC capability, but I don't know of a wallet app that I would want to use with the feature.

Okay. I must say; not having D+ and D- lines at all, makes me feel safer. Although I can't gauge how much smaller the attack surface really is in the real world.


Happy to clarify your questions! Anyone else?

[RickDeckard]

Happy to clarify your questions! Anyone else?

While I don't have any questions (for now) I do have great news - Foundation just secured another $7M in funding[1] from Polychain Capital[2] (the latest SEC file[3] (March 2022) mentions that the fund manages a total of ~ $6.6 billion USD).
According to BusinessWire.com[4] the focus of the investment will be the following:

Foundation’s financing will enable the company to continue expanding its engineering and design teams and building next-gen sovereignty products, with a short-term focus on software services.

Really looking forward to see what this funding enables regarding business expansion and software development ... Things are looking bright for you guys, congrats @zherber! Probably not next year, but I would really love to see some action in Europe, perhaps 2024?
[1]https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/19/foundation-devices-seed/
[2]https://polychain.capital/
[3]https://web.archive.org/web/20220706154222/https://sec.report/AdviserInfo/Firms/285022/Form-ADV-285022.pdf
[4]https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20221219005094/en/Foundation-Devices-Announces-Completion-of-7M-Seed-Round-to-Accelerate-Development-of-its-Sovereign-Computing-Platform

[dkbit98]

Really looking forward to see what this funding enables regarding business expansion and software development ... Things are looking bright for you guys, congrats @zherber! Probably not next year, but I would really love to see some action in Europe, perhaps 2024?

I just hope it's not going to be expansion and adding shitcoins support in Passport, because it's nice when you have 7 million dollars collected by new seed round, but it's not very nice to hear this was done by Polychain Capital  
It's ok if other coins want to build on top of Passport software, but this should NOT be officially supported by Passport developers in any way.
I don't know much about Polychain Capital, but quick search is showing me they are hedge fund involved with Tezos shitcoin, Quai Network, Dfinity, Kik Messenger and they invested in 14 different shitcoins...
https://foundationdevices.com/2022/12/announcing-our-7m-seed-round/

[n0nce]

It's ok if other coins want to build on top of Passport software, but this should NOT be officially supported by Passport developers in any way.

I agree with that; but have no worries any of this is going to happen.

I don't know much about Polychain Capital, but quick search is showing me they are hedge fund involved with Tezos shitcoin, Quai Network, Dfinity, Kik Messenger and they invested in 14 different shitcoins...
https://foundationdevices.com/2022/12/announcing-our-7m-seed-round/

Sure, however think about that: $7m may sound like a lot to us, but it's just 0.1% of this hedge fund. Even if they wanted to focus 99.9% on shitcoins, they could absolutely do that without pressuring Passport into any weird direction.

[dkbit98]

Sure, however think about that: $7m may sound like a lot to us, but it's just 0.1% of this hedge fund. Even if they wanted to focus 99.9% on shitcoins, they could absolutely do that without pressuring Passport into any weird direction.

Yeah it's not a lot when you look how much money they have, but they won't throw away money just like that.
Foundation Devices also raised $2 Million last year, so you do need money flow to keep running things for any business.
Let's compare that with Ledger who collected $380 million from last year series C fundraising, that is really a big difference.
I personally wouldn't mind if they allow adding few other shitcoins that are privacy based, but I know the road is going down the hill when that happens.

PS
It would be interesting to collect foundrising information for all hardware wallets, but this would be tricky thing to do,
You would need to find who exactly invested money, how much they invested, and find som reliable documentation or links for that.

[n0nce]

Update time! I installed the v2.0.5 beta today and I'm pleased to announce that the camera issue is essentially fixed. From their release notes:

Two of the specific changes are:

• Changed the camera to use a 4:3 resolution.
• Changed the QR scanning library to a more stable version.

I still have the feeling that the original Founders Edition was a tiny bit faster; it actually surprised me when I first tried it. Barely had moved the device towards my screen and it had already registered (or that's what it felt like).

It's pretty hard to compare these side-by-side (I tried), but what they settled on now is absolutely usable, even with my (deliberately bad for these tests) lighting conditions, in which I had massive issues before (meanwhile others / myself when in a better light had none).

[zherbert]

Hi all! Firmware v2.0.5 has been released with dramatically improved QR code scanning. Learn more on our blog:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/02/passport-version-2-0-5-is-now-live/

I'll make myself available over the next 24 hours to answer any questions you have about Passport! Thank you n0nce for the amazing detailed review. I'll also do my best to spend more time monitoring this thread and on BitcoinTalk in general.

[n0nce]

Hi all! Firmware v2.0.5 has been released with dramatically improved QR code scanning. Learn more on our blog:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/02/passport-version-2-0-5-is-now-live/

I'll make myself available over the next 24 hours to answer any questions you have about Passport! Thank you n0nce for the amazing detailed review. I'll also do my best to spend more time monitoring this thread and on BitcoinTalk in general.

Thanks for the heads-up! I will try it as soon as possible and see if there are any noticeable changes from the beta version I had tried. However, that was already miles better than 2.0.4, as posted above.

Having some presence on Bitcointalk is definitely something I'd recommend to Foundation Devices. You could also create your own thread in this subforum (like Tibu is doing for his Satochip wallet) for announcements, updates and whatnot. But feel free to just keep posting here, if you prefer that.

I'm sure there are also ways to contribute e.g. as a sponsor for larger forum events like Bitcointalk Community Awards and similar to get more forum member hands on Passports and maybe more discussion and feedback..


Instead of being available for 24h, I recommend setting up something like LoyceV's notification bot or the Telegram bot linked there. Then you can have a look at your notification page from time to time and see if you got mentioned somewhere.

[RickDeckard]

Hi all! Firmware v2.0.5 has been released with dramatically improved QR code scanning. Learn more on our blog:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/02/passport-version-2-0-5-is-now-live/

I'll make myself available over the next 24 hours to answer any questions you have about Passport! Thank you n0nce for the amazing detailed review. I'll also do my best to spend more time monitoring this thread and on BitcoinTalk in general.

Thank you for coming here once again Zack! As someone who likes the whole concept of your product, could you share some details/road ahead regarding selling directly to consumers in Europe? Currently, according to one of your resellers[1], the price for a Batch 2 devices is 350 €[2] which makes a high barrier for entrance for users that may even like the product but the price is outside what they would like to spend on such device when they can, for example, buy a Trezor Model T for ~ 210 € - this difference is particularly important in the times that we currently face with high inflation and extreme energy prices in Europe.

The current price in USA for the device is $249 which translates to ~ 241 €. Considering your business model, I don't see it possible to happen in a foreseeable future to have two parallel assembly factories in both USA and Europe so that you could try to decrease the price between each regional area. However, I would like to ask if there are any plans to have a fulfillment center in Europe that could allow you to ship directly to EU customers. This is a similar approach taken from Trezor[5] - and Europe based company - where they have a fulfillment center in USA that allows them to ship their products directly to consumers (of course they still have resellers[6]) but I think that having a fulfillment center in Europe would contribute to have a smaller difference between USD and EUR price.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/
[2]https://copiaro.de/en/product/passport-hardware-wallet-batch2/
[3]https://trezor.io/support/a/where-do-you-ship-from
[4]https://foundationdevices.com/
[5]https://trezor.io/support/a/where-do-you-ship-from
[6]https://trezor.io/resellers

[n0nce]

The current price in USA for the device is $249 which translates to ~ 241 €.

Do keep in mind that exporting stuff costs money, too and European shops generally show prices with VAT included, whereas in the US it is added at checkout. By adding an approximate EU VAT rate of around 20% we get about 290€ and adding import taxes we get suspiciously close to that price of 350€.
Although I do agree that 350€ or $ is a lot of money. I already suggested that maybe they could make a 'light' version of the batch 2, using the exact same hardware and software (no additional R&D costs) and further reduce costs through cheaper materials (no metal parts, just all plastic). That should allow them to drop the price drastically, especially since a device at half the cost opens a much wider market. I don't really see why not to make a cheaper Passport.

[dkbit98]

I'll make myself available over the next 24 hours to answer any questions you have about Passport! Thank you n0nce for the amazing detailed review. I'll also do my best to spend more time monitoring this thread and on BitcoinTalk in general.

Available how exactly?
I sent you personal message in forum more than two days ago and I still didn't receive any reply... maybe you didn't check your inbox

Like RickDeckard said before me, it would be a good idea to have official Passport distribution center in Europe, or have more options for resellers.
I can't wait to see what is your next device going to look like, as response to Cooldcard Q1 and many others upcoming hardware wallets like Keystone Gen2, new Trezor with secure element, 1inch wallet, and lets' not forget Block wallet by Jack Dorsey.

[zherbert]

Thanks for the heads-up! I will try it as soon as possible and see if there are any noticeable changes from the beta version I had tried. However, that was already miles better than 2.0.4, as posted above.

Having some presence on Bitcointalk is definitely something I'd recommend to Foundation Devices. You could also create your own thread in this subforum (like Tibu is doing for his Satochip wallet) for announcements, updates and whatnot. But feel free to just keep posting here, if you prefer that.

I'm sure there are also ways to contribute e.g. as a sponsor for larger forum events like Bitcointalk Community Awards and similar to get more forum member hands on Passports and maybe more discussion and feedback..


Instead of being available for 24h, I recommend setting up something like LoyceV's notification bot or the Telegram bot linked there. Then you can have a look at your notification page from time to time and see if you got mentioned somewhere.

Thanks, I'll check with my team, I really like the idea of setting up our own thread for announcements and discussion. We'll look into potential sponsorships as well.

I'll also check out the notifications bot, because I've been relying on email notifications and it seems like I've been missing a lot.

Thank you for coming here once again Zack! As someone who likes the whole concept of your product, could you share some details/road ahead regarding selling directly to consumers in Europe? Currently, according to one of your resellers[1], the price for a Batch 2 devices is 350 €[2] which makes a high barrier for entrance for users that may even like the product but the price is outside what they would like to spend on such device when they can, for example, buy a Trezor Model T for ~ 210 € - this difference is particularly important in the times that we currently face with high inflation and extreme energy prices in Europe.

The current price in USA for the device is $249 which translates to ~ 241 €. Considering your business model, I don't see it possible to happen in a foreseeable future to have two parallel assembly factories in both USA and Europe so that you could try to decrease the price between each regional area. However, I would like to ask if there are any plans to have a fulfillment center in Europe that could allow you to ship directly to EU customers. This is a similar approach taken from Trezor[5] - and Europe based company - where they have a fulfillment center in USA that allows them to ship their products directly to consumers (of course they still have resellers[6]) but I think that having a fulfillment center in Europe would contribute to have a smaller difference between USD and EUR price.

Thanks for the feedback! I think we just need to ramp up and have higher volumes before considering a separate distribution center. But it's definitely something we'd want in the future.

One thing we've done in the last ~6 months is enable better import tax estimates when purchasing directly from us. For example, plugging in a random address in Portugal, it tells the customer that estimated taxes and duties will be $71.21 if shipping via UPS Worldwide Saver (in addition to shipping cost). It's just an estimate, but at least it's better than blindly ordering direct from us and getting hit with a large unexpected import tax bill.

I think we can, in general, reduce Passport's price over time as we scale production. Increased volume will mean lower costs, and we can pass those savings to our customers.

Although I do agree that 350€ or $ is a lot of money. I already suggested that maybe they could make a 'light' version of the batch 2, using the exact same hardware and software (no additional R&D costs) and further reduce costs through cheaper materials (no metal parts, just all plastic). That should allow them to drop the price drastically, especially since a device at half the cost opens a much wider market. I don't really see why not to make a cheaper Passport.

My preference for now would be to drive down costs via higher volumes and manufacturing optimizations, as opposed to releasing a new low-end device (at least in near term). I'd love to get Passport's price point to $199.

Available how exactly?
I sent you personal message in forum more than two days ago and I still didn't receive any reply... maybe you didn't check your inbox

Sorry dkbit98, the email notifications on BitcoinTalk are pretty bad, I will just keep it open in a tab in my browser and check frequently. You guys have a great community here, hoping to participate in more discussions.

[dkbit98]

My preference for now would be to drive down costs via higher volumes and manufacturing optimizations, as opposed to releasing a new low-end device (at least in near term). I'd love to get Passport's price point to $199.

I think that would be more than fair price for Passport, especially when compared with hardware wallets from competition, Coldcard is from $149 to $199, Trezor is from $69 to $219, Ledger is from $85 to $300, Keystone from $119 to $169, etc.
However, I would really like to see Foundation offering several devices with different prices, so people could choose for themselves what they want.

Sorry dkbit98, the email notifications on BitcoinTalk are pretty bad, I will just keep it open in a tab in my browser and check frequently. You guys have a great community here, hoping to participate in more discussions.

No problem, we finally managed to get in contact
Email notifications works fine for me for PM, but when someone mentiones your name in post Telegram bot @BTTSuperNotifier_bot is working great.

[n0nce]

Thanks, I'll check with my team, I really like the idea of setting up our own thread for announcements and discussion. We'll look into potential sponsorships as well.

I'll also check out the notifications bot, because I've been relying on email notifications and it seems like I've been missing a lot.

Sounds great to me!

~

My preference for now would be to drive down costs via higher volumes and manufacturing optimizations, as opposed to releasing a new low-end device (at least in near term). I'd love to get Passport's price point to $199.

Passport Batch 2 at $199 and Passport 2 Lite with plastic parts at $150 and we have a deal!

Available how exactly?
I sent you personal message in forum more than two days ago and I still didn't receive any reply... maybe you didn't check your inbox

Sorry dkbit98, the email notifications on BitcoinTalk are pretty bad, I will just keep it open in a tab in my browser and check frequently. You guys have a great community here, hoping to participate in more discussions.

I believe Email notifications only really work well for private messages (they should be very reliable for that, though), for anything else use Watchlist / Unread Replies / bots.

[RickDeckard]

Thanks, I'll check with my team, I really like the idea of setting up our own thread for announcements and discussion. We'll look into potential sponsorships as well.

Indeed, the bitcointalk audience is one of, if not the most reliable audience that you could expose your product to - you've got many experienced users that are happy to tell you their thoughts and you've also the remaining users - from newbies to medium average users that for sure are looking for the next reliable hardware wallet to buy. From the back of my mind I can give you an example such as Satochip[1]. From my perspective I think that this is one of those moves that you'll never go wrong with - worst case scenario you'll get some raw feedback regarding your product which, from my perspective, will only improve it in either way.

I'll also check out the notifications bot, because I've been relying on email notifications and it seems like I've been missing a lot.

Do check it out as it is a really handy feature. You've got two great guides here[2][3].

Thanks for the feedback! I think we just need to ramp up and have higher volumes before considering a separate distribution center. But it's definitely something we'd want in the future.

One thing we've done in the last ~6 months is enable better import tax estimates when purchasing directly from us. For example, plugging in a random address in Portugal, it tells the customer that estimated taxes and duties will be $71.21 if shipping via UPS Worldwide Saver (in addition to shipping cost). It's just an estimate, but at least it's better than blindly ordering direct from us and getting hit with a large unexpected import tax bill.

I think we can, in general, reduce Passport's price over time as we scale production. Increased volume will mean lower costs, and we can pass those savings to our customers.

The tool itself is already quite handy, but I wonder if UPS has also a policy similar to Amazon regarding foreign shipping. In Amazon they'll estimate how much you'll pay in customs and bill you right at the checkout - if it ends up being less they return the money to you but if it ends being more than they initially estimated they'll cover the difference. Is this how UPS model works as well?

Also, regarding production costs, could you shed a light on what was a big challenge while building Batch 2 as a product? Did you encountered some problems in a specific part/supplier? How are the suppliers picked? Do you have some kind of evaluation methodologies that you apply in your selection process?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5181719
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5229697.0
[3]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5248878.0

[zherbert]

The tool itself is already quite handy, but I wonder if UPS has also a policy similar to Amazon regarding foreign shipping. In Amazon they'll estimate how much you'll pay in customs and bill you right at the checkout - if it ends up being less they return the money to you but if it ends being more than they initially estimated they'll cover the difference. Is this how UPS model works as well?

Currently we just display the estimated import tax, but we don't charge the customer. The customer then needs to pay it directly from UPS (or whatever carrier they select) upon package delivery.

I think there is a way where we could pay the import tax on behalf of the customer, and therefore charge them for the estimated tax during checkout. I'll explore if this is possible, because I like your idea. The only downside would be if the estimate is consistently lower than the actual tax; that would eat into our margins and we aren't quite as big as Amazon

Also, regarding production costs, could you shed a light on what was a big challenge while building Batch 2 as a product? Did you encountered some problems in a specific part/supplier? How are the suppliers picked? Do you have some kind of evaluation methodologies that you apply in your selection process?

The biggest challenges by far were (1) getting the copper plating to look good consistently and (2) keypad feel and performance.

We will never again do a copper plating process on zinc alloy. We are exploring PVD coatings for future generations of Passport. The supplier had a really had time getting the color within our specification, and it was one of the main reasons we were delayed last year. We also had to throw away lots of parts due to surface finish issues.

For the keypad, we had challenges with both the number keys and the metal navigation keys. We do a pretty rigorous inspection process now, including grinding down posts of the metal keys if they don't feel good enough. In a few months we will be introducing a new keypad with more consistent performance, where the metal keys and plastic keys are backed by the same rubber membrane.

Regarding suppliers in general, we stick with the ones that do good work for us, and we look for new ones in areas where we are not satisfied. I think the only real way to evaluate a supplier is to run a batch of parts through them and see the output – and of course see how they respond to feedback and iterate.

[dkbit98]

Regarding suppliers in general, we stick with the ones that do good work for us, and we look for new ones in areas where we are not satisfied. I think the only real way to evaluate a supplier is to run a batch of parts through them and see the output – and of course see how they respond to feedback and iterate.

I know you told us there are no plans for making new devices in near future, but one of my suggestions would be to consider making Passport waterproof or water resistant device.
This probably needs a lot of work in redesign of inside, but even cheaper solutions like waterproof cases for protection would be interesting, and you could sell them separately.
I already know several hardware wallets that started making waterproof devices, so better think about that on time.

[RickDeckard]

Currently we just display the estimated import tax, but we don't charge the customer. The customer then needs to pay it directly from UPS (or whatever carrier they select) upon package delivery.

I think there is a way where we could pay the import tax on behalf of the customer, and therefore charge them for the estimated tax during checkout. I'll explore if this is possible, because I like your idea. The only downside would be if the estimate is consistently lower than the actual tax; that would eat into our margins and we aren't quite as big as Amazon

So while the client is making the purchase he was to directly pay it to UPS instead to Foundation as a company? I may be thinking this wrong and I would love your input but, from a user perspective, this operation seems like it's a bit confuse - If I'm willing to pay for such a premium for such a device (considering the offers in the market), the least that I would expect is that I would pay whatever had to pay to Foundation and then the order would eventually come to my house - no need to make two separate transactions, one for you and one for UPS. I may be wrong on the following assumption, but doesn't it mean that by paying directly to UPS it makes me the one responsible for the package, thus it would be me who would have to argue with them if something went bad as opposed to being Foundation the ones responsible to care and making sure that the package arrives with no problems?

Regarding liquidity - I totally understand and support the concept that no company in the world (besides Google and Apple) has the same liquidity as Amazon has to have that kind of "compensation" system implemented. I think, however, that you could make some kind of partnership with a carrier (even having some of your devices in their warehouses?) and also ask them the % of situations that their simulation actually ended up on the wrong said a.k.a where the customer ended up paying more than what they were told. I know that in order to get good shipping values you'll need to have a higher volume of items, but at least I see space for working on the whole shipping taxes calculation (for countries outside US).

We will never again do a copper plating process on zinc alloy. We are exploring PVD coatings for future generations of Passport. The supplier had a really had time getting the color within our specification, and it was one of the main reasons we were delayed last year. We also had to throw away lots of parts due to surface finish issues.

For the keypad, we had challenges with both the number keys and the metal navigation keys. We do a pretty rigorous inspection process now, including grinding down posts of the metal keys if they don't feel good enough. In a few months we will be introducing a new keypad with more consistent performance, where the metal keys and plastic keys are backed by the same rubber membrane.

Regarding suppliers in general, we stick with the ones that do good work for us, and we look for new ones in areas where we are not satisfied. I think the only real way to evaluate a supplier is to run a batch of parts through them and see the output – and of course see how they respond to feedback and iterate.

Interesting insight, thank you for it! n0nce also pointed out that the keypad felt a bit "weird" when compared with the previous version, so it's nice to also have a confirmation from your side - it's even better knowing that you already detected that it can be improved and improvements are already being put into place in the next generation!

Another question (if I may) : Regarding the funding that your company has managed to get so far, how do you manage the relationship with your investors? In one side you've got investors that want to have returns on their investment, but on the other hand you have the main purpose of your device that naturally makes the production costs high and directly impacts the amount of units that you are able to produce in order to make even, or make a tiny bit margin of profit. How do you deal and manage this situation with the investors?