Celebrate Self Custody with Cypherock X1 50% Discount

[Nmnsth]

Get 50% off on Cypherock X1 with promo code NOSEED50 till Black Friday

Be your own bank, without ever worrying about someone peeping into your Seedphrases backups.

Shamir Secret Sharing converts your plain-text seedphrase to encrypted shards. Lose 3 of the 5 shards and still have access to your Bitcoin.

No Theft, No Loss.

Generate up to 4 unique wallets with separate seephrases and manage all wallets from one place.

https://shop.cypherock.com/

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[dkbit98]

Get 50% off on Cypherock X1 with promo code NOSEED50 till Black Friday

That is a nice Black Friday deal but I think Cypherock X1 wallet is still a bit expensive for me, even with this discount price is $199 plus shipping.

Shamir Secret Sharing converts your plain-text seedphrase to encrypted shards. Lose 3 of the 5 shards and still have access to your Bitcoin.

I don't know if you are official representative of Cypherock wallet, but if you are, canyou tell me if this Shamir Secret Sharing is compatible with other wallets that supports it.
For example, I know that Trezor Model T and Keystone also support SSS, but I don't know if your is compatible with theirs.
I said before that main problem with Shamir Secret Sharing is not standardized implenetation, so everyone is making their own ''better'' versions.

One more question:
I saw on your website that wallet is Open Source and code can be found on github, but is wallet firmware and everything else also open source?
If you can confirm this I will add Cypherock X1 to my list of Open Source hardware wallets:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0

[n0nce]

I saw on your website that wallet is Open Source and code can be found on github, but is wallet firmware and everything else also open source?

The firmware is open-source: https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware
Of course, builds have to be verified, as this is a new / unknown device (at least to me) so far.

WalletScrutiny hasn't checked it out yet, but I hope with funding secured now, they will try it out. Otherwise we have to do it ourselves..

Seems a bit expensive to me, too; when I can get an airgapped Bitcoin-only device with open-source hardware for 60 extra bucks.

[dkbit98]

The firmware is open-source: https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware
Of course, builds have to be verified, as this is a new / unknown device (at least to me) so far.

It's not so new device... I know they had presale of same hardware wallet model few years ago I think for $99.
I also found old topic in forum from 2020, by member rohanagarwal94, but he was banned for posting fake miner software, so I don't know if he was really connected with Cypherock company.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5225800.0

@Nmnsth can you please explain this?

WalletScrutiny hasn't checked it out yet, but I hope with funding secured now, they will try it out. Otherwise we have to do it ourselves..

Someone should tag them here in forum or on twitter to check Cypherock, but I wouldn't be surprised if the code was not reproducible.

[Nmnsth]

Get 50% off on Cypherock X1 with promo code NOSEED50 till Black Friday

That is a nice Black Friday deal but I think Cypherock X1 wallet is still a bit expensive for me, even with this discount price is $199 plus shipping.

It actually is net 75% off which means $100. Updated the website & Coupon Code to resolve the confusion. New Code: NOSEED75

I don't know if you are official representative of Cypherock wallet, but if you are, canyou tell me if this Shamir Secret Sharing is compatible with other wallets that supports it.
For example, I know that Trezor Model T and Keystone also support SSS, but I don't know if your is compatible with theirs.
I said before that main problem with Shamir Secret Sharing is not standardized implenetation, so everyone is making their own ''better'' versions.

Yes, I am part of the team. Cypherock SSS implementation is actually BIP39 compatible. We thought of integrating SLIP39 but since it is not compatible with BIP39 wordlist, we decided against implementing it at this point. More details from Satoshi Labs here - https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md#user-content-bip39compatibility

That being said, if ever Cypherock goes out of business, you can still export out your seed phrases from the X1 cards since these are industry standard EAL 5+ certified smartcards, with the NPC communication protocol compatible with all of the NFC enabled Android & IOS smartphones.

I saw on your website that wallet is Open Source and code can be found on github, but is wallet firmware and everything else also open source?
If you can confirm this I will add Cypherock X1 to my list of Open Source hardware wallets:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0

Yes, Our Wallet Firmware & cySync desktop app are open sourced. You can check our source code at https://github.com/cypherock

I believe we are definitely eligible to feature on the list!

WalletScrutiny hasn't checked it out yet, but I hope with funding secured now, they will try it out. Otherwise we have to do it ourselves..

WalletScrutiny outreached us few weeks back and we have provided all the information they required. They should be releasing report at their end, soon.

Also, Keylabs recently conducted our wallet audit and their report can be found here https://keylabs.io/cypherock

Seems a bit expensive to me, too; when I can get an airgapped Bitcoin-only device with open-source hardware for 60 extra bucks.

The device is available at a discounted price of $100 for Black Friday sale. Updated the website and Code to remove any confusion. New Code: NOSEED75

It's not so new device... I know they had presale of same hardware wallet model few years ago I think for $99.
I also found old topic in forum from 2020, by member rohanagarwal94, but he was banned for posting fake miner software, so I don't know if he was really connected with Cypherock company.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5225800.0

@Nmnsth can you please explain this?

Sure, he is the cofounder & CEO. Not sure, about the fake miner software thing, since Cypherock was never in the business. We had definitely posted about it before but the product went through multiple iterations and changes before we finally launched it this year. Yes, we had a pre sale before but because of COVID19, the supply chains got disrupted and things slowed down on our end.

WalletScrutiny hasn't checked it out yet, but I hope with funding secured now, they will try it out. Otherwise we have to do it ourselves..

Someone should tag them here in forum or on twitter to check Cypherock, but I wouldn't be surprised if the code was not reproducible.

As mentioned above, we are in touch with the wallet scrutiny team. It would be great if you can nudge them as well. Nonetheless, we are security audited by Keylabs, one of the security firms that hacked the Ledger wallet before. You can read more about it here - https://www.cypherock.com/keylabs

Additionally, The X1 Wallet's firmware OTA updates are done through the CySync app which stores the firmware package locally, the firmware part of these packages can be verified and compared with the release builds on the X1 Wallet repo: https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware/releases to check if it's authentic.

The packet structure of the firmware package and communication method is also shared here: https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware/blob/main/docs/bootloader.md
The user can also update the firmware manually using the process mentioned in the document, given the package contains valid header and signatures.



[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[n0nce]

WalletScrutiny hasn't checked it out yet, but I hope with funding secured now, they will try it out. Otherwise we have to do it ourselves..

WalletScrutiny outreached us few weeks back and we have provided all the information they required. They should be releasing report at their end, soon.

Also, Keylabs recently conducted our wallet audit and their report can be found here https://keylabs.io/cypherock

Cool, excited to read it! Thanks for the link. Any plans for open-sourcing hardware, too?

Keylabs is actually legit; I've seen their stuff about Ledger and they really know what they're doing. Having a positive audit by them does mean something.

Seems a bit expensive to me, too; when I can get an airgapped Bitcoin-only device with open-source hardware for 60 extra bucks.

The device is available at a discounted price of $100 for Black Friday sale. Updated the website and Code to remove any confusion. New Code: NOSEED75

$100 makes it more competitive, for sure!

My main complaint / critique with your concept of splitting the seed and having people store the cards in different location is, that it makes the everyday usage less convenient. This looks like a reasonably solid cold-storage setup for non-technical people, who could find it difficult to create and deploy a paper-based multisig setup.

But for me, a hardware wallet is a convenient, yet secure (from software & hardware attacks) way to spend Bitcoin any day, anywhere. Of course, a 'hardware wallet' setup which stores the seed in multiple distributed locations, will be more secure, but it will be much less convenient when trying to spend. I'd personally probably just use it in single-sig mode (if possible) or store all the cards together to be able to use it quickly; although that would kill its main selling point.

What I do not like at all is your shitcoin and centralized KYC exchange integration.

CySync app already supports 20 different payment methods through our partners onramper for you to directly buy Crypto in 15 different currencies directly on the app in case you already do not have Crypto.

Onramper does not save any KYC information. All user information is sent directly to the relevant partner that facilitates the transaction. As such, we cannot currently ensure that the same information and documentation can be re-used across various fiat onramps. We do have KYC re-use on our roadmap, but for later this year (Q3/Q4 2022).

KYC data is not even saved by you or your provider, but actually by another service behind 'onramper', so I don't even know if users get to know where their data ended up and who to contact if they want it deleted.

Your X1 cards which stores your Crypto is never Upgradable and remains Cold at all times.

Downside: someone discovers a hardware / firmware bug in the JavaCard and those cards will need to be replaced with new, secure cards, as there is no update mechanism to fix the issue (unlike Trezor and Ledger who fixed hardware attacks through firmware upgrades).

Cypherock decentralizes your private keys to give you 10x more security.

This is a little bit disingenuous.. Did you somehow multiply 2x5 (because of the 5 keys) to get to the conclusion that it's 10x safer? Safer than what? What's the benchmark? Throwing out a number like that to impress newbies is not very cool. You and I know that it's hard to quantify how much safer this setup will be, since you don't know how (well) people will deploy / store their 5 keys.

[dkbit98]

It actually is net 75% off which means $100. Updated the website & Coupon Code to resolve the confusion. New Code: NOSEED75

Ok, I can confirm this to be true after testing it myself on your website, and I think this is decent price compared to all other hardware wallets.
Current total price with this discount is exactly $99.5 USD plus shipping, so I am not sure that free international shipping statement is still valid.
You are shipping from India, right?

I believe we are definitely eligible to feature on the list!

I am adding you on this list of open source hardware wallets, but I have one more question for my other topic.
Are you still using outdated secure element ATECC608A for X1 wallet, or you switched to updated model ATECC608B?
There are some issues with older model and many devices switched to model B.

[Nmnsth]

Cool, excited to read it! Thanks for the link. Any plans for open-sourcing hardware, too?

We are inclined towards open sourcing that too. We just don't have a timeline for that at this point.

My main complaint / critique with your concept of splitting the seed and having people store the cards in different location is, that it makes the everyday usage less convenient. This looks like a reasonably solid cold-storage setup for non-technical people, who could find it difficult to create and deploy a paper-based multisig setup.

But for me, a hardware wallet is a convenient, yet secure (from software & hardware attacks) way to spend Bitcoin any day, anywhere. Of course, a 'hardware wallet' setup which stores the seed in multiple distributed locations, will be more secure, but it will be much less convenient when trying to spend. I'd personally probably just use it in single-sig mode (if possible) or store all the cards together to be able to use it quickly; although that would kill its main selling point.

Well, you don't need all of the 5 shards together to spend your Bitcoins. You just need the X1 wallet and any 1 of the 4 X1 cards. If you are optimising for convenience, you can store an X1 wallet and X1 card together. If you want to optimize for security, just keep the X1 cards as geographically distributed as possible. Completely depends on the user. The UX difference with other hardware wallets is just that you additionally need to tap an X1 card to authorize a transaction.

KYC data is not even saved by you or your provider, but actually by another service behind 'onramper', so I don't even know if users get to know where their data ended up and who to contact if they want it deleted.

Onramp is optional for the users to use. We will definitely keep this in mind before we decide to go ahead with the integration.

Downside: someone discovers a hardware / firmware bug in the JavaCard and those cards will need to be replaced with new, secure cards, as there is no update mechanism to fix the issue (unlike Trezor and Ledger who fixed hardware attacks through firmware upgrades).

The Javacard is audited by SERMA SAFETY AND SECURITY ITSEF which are one of the World's best in Javacard security. Currently, it has been battle-tested over a period of 1 year of internal beta testing as well. Yes, if it ever comes to that, the cards will need to be replaced. But the same thing could be argued for a bug in the bootloader and secure element of some of the most popular hardware wallets since even they are not upgradeable. With Cypherock, at least your funds are not at risk since the private keys as a whole are never stored completely in the Javacards.

This is a little bit disingenuous.. Did you somehow multiply 2x5 (because of the 5 keys) to get to the conclusion that it's 10x safer? Safer than what? What's the benchmark? Throwing out a number like that to impress newbies is not very cool. You and I know that it's hard to quantify how much safer this setup will be, since you don't know how (well) people will deploy / store their 5 keys.

We know it is hard to quantify the security. The fact that your seed/private keys do not have a single point of failure at rest where most of the attack vectors exist for current hardware wallets. Given decent geographical distribution of the cards, we may even argue that the security delta might be even higher. We considered an average here. I would say the security delta is even greater for Bitcoin multisig.

[Nmnsth]

Ok, I can confirm this to be true after testing it myself on your website, and I think this is decent price compared to all other hardware wallets.
Current total price with this discount is exactly $99.5 USD plus shipping, so I am not sure that free international shipping statement is still valid.
You are shipping from India, right?

Yes, we are shipping from India. Our complete assembly line is based here in India with parts sourced from different component manufacturers to avoid a single point of failure. We do not have free international shipping at this point. Correcting the same on the website as I write this. Thanks for pointing it out.

I am adding you on this list of open-source hardware wallets, but I have one more question for my other topic.
Are you still using outdated secure element ATECC608A for X1 wallet, or you switched to updated model ATECC608B?
There are some issues with older model and many devices switched to model B.

Thanks for this! We are using the ATECC608A right now because of the unavailability of the ATECC608B due to a global supply chain shortage. But our hardware is compatible with both of them.

[dkbit98]

Thanks for this! We are using the ATECC608A right now because of the unavailability of the ATECC608B due to a global supply chain shortage. But our hardware is compatible with both of them.

Thank you for being honest and answering all the questions.
I added your devices Cypherock X1 in my two topics for Open Source Hardware Wallets and Secure Element in Hardware Wallets.
I would suggest that you switch to new secure element ATECC608B as soon as possible, even if they say it's not critical issue.

If I understand correctly, I can't generate my seed words offline (using dices for example) and import them in Cypherock X1 in any way?
Maybe I want to use different wallet because I lost my Cypherock device, how can I use this cards with any other hardware or software wallets?
Last thing I wanted to ask, is it possible to use Cypherock X1 with Electrum wallet or any other software wallet?

[n0nce]

Cool, excited to read it! Thanks for the link. Any plans for open-sourcing hardware, too?

We are inclined towards open sourcing that too. We just don't have a timeline for that at this point.

That's good to hear! It would set the device apart from the competition, as there are very few open-hardware wallets out there as of now.

If you are optimising for convenience, you can store an X1 wallet and X1 card together.

That doesn't sound too bad, yes.

Onramp is optional for the users to use. We will definitely keep this in mind before we decide to go ahead with the integration.

If the exchange feature is not integrated yet, maybe consider integrating Bisq or Robosats instead (if technically possible). Or skip it; honestly, anyone setting up a multisig solution like this, doesn't need an exchange embedded in the wallet software.

But the same thing could be argued for a bug in the bootloader and secure element of some of the most popular hardware wallets since even they are not upgradeable. With Cypherock, at least your funds are not at risk since the private keys as a whole are never stored completely in the Javacards.

That's true; but you can fix bugs outside of bootloader / secure element, while on this card you can't fix any bug. I get your point, though. Distributing keys solves a lot of theoretical issues in the real world, if properly deployed.

We know it is hard to quantify the security.
[...]
Given decent geographical distribution of the cards, we may even argue that the security delta might be even higher. We considered an average here. I would say the security delta is even greater for Bitcoin multisig.

I'd go as far as saying that it's impossible to quantify. So I'd personally just skip such numbers altogether, but it's just a suggestion. To anyone who knows that it's not quantifiable, it simply looks bad / amateurish. Your wallet looks rather good without that; if you leave out KYC integrations and make sure it can work with other wallets (no vendor lock-in), it can be a very decent and successful device. Open-source hardware would be a giant cherry on top.

[Nmnsth]

Thank you for being honest and answering all the questions.
I added your devices Cypherock X1 in my two topics for Open Source Hardware Wallets and Secure Element in Hardware Wallets.
I would suggest that you switch to new secure element ATECC608B as soon as possible, even if they say it's not critical issue.

Thank you! Will do.

If I understand correctly, I can't generate my seed words offline (using dices for example) and import them in Cypherock X1 in any way?

You can do it externally if you want and import your own seed phrase in Cypherock X1, so you don't rely on the wallet's entropy for the private key generation.

Maybe I want to use different wallet because I lost my Cypherock device, how can I use these cards with any other hardware or software wallets?

The cards are currently not compatible with any known wallets. However, you can communicate with the Javacards with your own Android, IOS or any other NFC enabled device. We plan to launch an open-source Android/IOS app as well that communicates with the cards. Here are the files - https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware/blob/main/common/interfaces/card_interface/nfc.c, https://github.com/Cypherock/x1_wallet_firmware/blob/main/common/interfaces/card_interface/apdu.c

Last thing I wanted to ask, is it possible to use Cypherock X1 with Electrum wallet or any other software wallet?

Not at the moment. We are building out our open-source SDK which should be out in January 2023 through which we will integrate with Electrum and other wallets.

Also, would appreciate if you can add our Black Friday deal in your post here - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5423037.0

[Nmnsth]

If the exchange feature is not integrated yet, maybe consider integrating Bisq or Robosats instead (if technically possible). Or skip it; honestly, anyone setting up a multisig solution like this, doesn't need an exchange embedded in the wallet software.

Sure, will take a look.

if you leave out KYC integrations and make sure it can work with other wallets (no vendor lock-in), it can be a very decent and successful device. Open-source hardware would be a giant cherry on top.

Agreed. Never optimizing for vendor lock-ins. You can always export out your seed phrase into another wallet.

[dkbit98]

You can do it externally if you want and import your own seed phrase in Cypherock X1, so you don't rely on the wallet's entropy for the private key generation.

Ok, that is good and maybe you should mention that somewhere on your website.
Big minus for me currently is the fact that Cypherock is not compatible with Electrum or other software wallets, and I don't like being limited like that.
I appreciate that you are working on this integration for 2023, so please post more information in forum when you release it, maybe even create separate topic for Cypherock X1.

Also, would appreciate if you can add our Black Friday deal in your post here - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5423037.0

I did mention it in the very first sentence and I even added 75% number, but I didn't want to write more information when we already have your topic.
This applies for all other wallets, and I only wrote a bit more info about wallets we don't have dedicated active  topics in forum.

[Nmnsth]

Ok, that is good and maybe you should mention that somewhere on your website.

Noted. Will update this on website.

I appreciate that you are working on this integration for 2023, so please post more information in forum when you release it, maybe even create separate topic for Cypherock X1.

Sure, will do.

I did mention it in the very first sentence and I even added 75% number, but I didn't want to write more information when we already have your topic.
This applies for all other wallets, and I only wrote a bit more info about wallets we don't have dedicated active  topics in forum.

That makes sense.

[dkbit98]

Noted. Will update this on website.

@Nmnsth can you confirm this information I found on internet, that you raised $1 million in your campaign and can you tell us why you did this?
Is this old news or you working on some new model of hardware wallet, more functionality for current model or money will be invested in marketing and spreading word about Cypherock?
Creating some campaign for reviewing your device, and being more active in Bitcointalk forum could be a good thing.
https://mctech.live/hardware-wallet-startup-cypherock-raises-1-mn/

[Nmnsth]

@Nmnsth can you confirm this information I found on internet, that you raised $1 million in your campaign and can you tell us why you did this?
Is this old news or you working on some new model of hardware wallet, more functionality for current model or money will be invested in marketing and spreading word about Cypherock?

Yes, we did raise $1M with investors like Consensys mesh, Orange DAO, Infinite Capital and more. Although, this is an old raise, we just decided to make it public now.
Reasons for the raise are listed below:

• Development of Cypherock X1
• reserach and development of Crypto Inheritance solutions
• Marketing the product

Creating some campaign for reviewing your device, and being more active in Bitcointalk forum could be a good thing.

Thank you, we plan to be more active on Bitcoin talk and are planning on creating a Bitcoin Talk Thread, as suggested by you!

We are also in constant touch with Crypto Wallet reviewers. There have been a few reviews out and few in development as we speak. If you know someone or you would like to review our product we would be happy to discuss it further.

[/quote]

[dkbit98]

Yes, we did raise $1M with investors like Consensys mesh, Orange DAO, Infinite Capital and more. Although, this is an old raise, we just decided to make it public now.

I see, so it's nothing new, but good that you made it public, maybe you should add more information before when exactly this happened to avoid confusion.

There have been a few reviews out and few in development as we speak. If you know someone or you would like to review our product we would be happy to discuss it further.

Let me think about it, but thank you for your offer.
I am sure there are few geeks in bitcointalk forum who are willing to write honest review, but you should expect brutal honesty from us.
Just tell me are you shipping worldwide or there are some limitations, excluding war affected areas?

[Nmnsth]

I am sure there are few geeks in bitcointalk forum who are willing to write honest review, but you should expect brutal honesty from us.

Brutal honesty from reviews is what we expect for making improvements in the product. Also, we do not make any effort to control the content generated by the reviewer.

Just tell me are you shipping worldwide or there are some limitations, excluding war affected areas?

That's correct. We are generally available worldwide(except War affected areas)