To those who do not care about their privacy. Why?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Great topic. Here's my view.

Internet privacy, if I had to define it in summary, is to have two or more not linked identities, one of which represents your real identity. My suggestion for Bitcoin users is to try as much as possible to begin their journey privately, and keep their Bitcoin activity private-- not linked to their real identity.

The reason I suggest this identity separation is because, truth be told, we can't have good Internet privacy nowadays-- and this might be the reason many have used to give little to no importance. It requires huge effort, and takes only a few clicks to have it infringed. Let alone, today's applications provide comfort in exchange for privacy. So, the conclusion is that you can't have one Internet identity that's private. You need to have two. Bitcoin gives you the option to make transactions with both these identities without linking them together; game changer.

I don't know if I'm the kind of guy who seeks for privacy as much as most legitimate Bitcoiners here. I don't feel bad when I use Google products, or text using Messenger / Viber, browse Twitter etc., provided that the business I do is not considered important from third parties. For example, texting to a friend or a date, or placing an order to buy clothes or food isn't the kind of things that is sensitive. What's sensitive is to let every spying company out there to know which content I like watching when I'm doing private stuff, such as Bitcoin-related, or even worse, to let them know how much bitcoin I have.

How to create an anonymous identity? Easy. We have cryptographic protocols. Everything you do will be routed through Tor. Create a private email, such as Protonmail. Browse using Tor browser. Use random password generators to avoid traceability. Buy a phone number anonymously; there are services that accept lightning in exchange for the option to receive SMSes. Run a lightning node, and use mixed funds for its capacity.

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[Doan9269]

It's a thing of shame to those experienced enough in cryptocurrency without having much concern regarding their privacy and this is not only applicable to bitcoin alone but in other areas of live, those that are caught unaware before they discover the need for their privacy are the beginners and once such discovery is made they withdrew from exposing their privacy in all they do, this has to be monitored althrough our entire dealings in this contemporary digital era in other to avoid future regret, when we would have loose it before notice.

[Lucius]

~snip~
But I am very conscious there are a lot of you out here who simply do not give a damn.  Which begs the question for me, why is it that you do not give a single damn about your own privacy when using Bitcoin?  Why not protect yourself in front of all sorts of attacks if you have the chance to do so?  Also.  What do you think about us, who try their hardest to 'hide'?  Do you think we are suspicious or are you perfectly fine with our way of living?  Do you think the number of criminals is larger where there are more privacy enthusiasts?

In order for people to understand the importance of privacy in the context of Bitcoin, they should first understand what Bitcoin is, or better said, what this alternative enables them compared to fiat. I tend to believe that the vast majority perceive Bitcoin as nothing more than a simple investment that will allow them to earn $10 000 from, say, $1000 over a period of time - and such people are certainly not interested in the kind of privacy you are talking about.

In the end, privacy is not something that people should be forced into, so to speak, but should come from some logical life situations where we should understand how exposed we are to various risks and what we can do to eliminate or at least reduce those risks. We have to accept that some people just don't care for one reason or another, but at the end of the day it's just their choice.

[so98nn]

I don’t think we are taught to fear hiding something or everything BUT we are trained to do so since our childhood. Now there should be clear instructions on what should be private and what should be public. I would say finances is something that can be kept 90% hidden and 10% public. Well that is in the sense of contributing to the society that we wander in. Howeve, today’s government would be like if we even move a dollar to buy or sell position then they would be like “yeah get it taxed on both the ways”. That’s insane. That’s why peeps are going crazy and their craziness should be for bitcoin now.

[o_e_l_e_o]

We have to accept that some people just don't care for one reason or another, but at the end of the day it's just their choice.

I get that, and of course people are free to completely give up their privacy for some tiny convenience or so they can show their friends pictures of their Starbucks coffee or some other stupid reason if they choose. But it needs to be an informed choice. And it never is.

Every centralized exchange buries somewhere in their Terms of Use that they know >99% don't read the small print in confusing legal language about your data being confidential and only disclosed with selected third parties under certain provisions. If these exchanges instead put in plain language on their sign up page "Your data will be shared with a bunch of complete strangers for regulatory reasons, sold to a bunch more third parties just because we can, and almost certainly leaked or hacked at some point in the future", then perhaps people would think twice about completing KYC. If all the people who bleat the nonsense "Well, I've got nothing to hide" were instead shown the results of people going bankrupt because of identity theft and having their lives ruined, they would think twice. People who give up their privacy freely are very rarely informed about the risks they are taking, precisely because large companies like Binance, Coinbase, Amazon, Facebook, etc. thrive on people not understanding these risks and handing over their data.

[CryptSafe]

Privacy is everyone's business but not compulsory though. Have you been in a situation of  theft via identity linking to you as a result of lapses from the third party? This is the situation of things now where ones identity is used to carryout crime schemes with third party and they not knowing where it is coming from but still on their platform. In this case, who's to be blamed?

[NotATether]

If you ask me, around 90% of all Bitcoin/crypto users care only about the profit, not about their privacy. Maybe a small percentage cares about both the profits and their privacy.

Profits?? In a prolonged bear market?

I'm pretty sure the reading on the "Bitcoin Fear and Greed Index" spooked out the vast majority of these money-grubbing vultures from Bitcoin and crypto in general.

Everyone else who remains will not make ridiculous decisions like storing their bitcoins on an exchange, especially now that they have seen in real time the consequences of an exchange with your funds on it collapsing (FTX).

[mk4]

You can get a very good chunk of the way there by simply not handing out your KYC. That doesn't take any effort at all. Just don't do it. The vast majority of privacy which is lost is lost because it is given up voluntarily.

Using a typical KYC exchange is still far more convenient(for the typical non-technical person) compared to using a no-KYC P2P trading platform; so it pretty much still comes down to convenience.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Using a typical KYC exchange is still far more convenient(for the typical non-technical person) compared to using a no-KYC P2P trading platform; so it pretty much still comes down to convenience.

Something tells me you haven't tried trading using a no-KYC P2P exchange. I challenge you verify this assertion by trying once.

No-KYC P2P:

• Exchange gives you a temporary user id.
• You make an offer.
• Someone takes your offer.
• The exchange (centralized for the sake of simplicity), swaps your assets.

That's it. I just had a wonderful experience with Robosats, and it costed me 0.

KYC no-P2P:

• You're going so sign up.
• You have to complete KYC, and bunch of captchas.
• You need to verify the account (texts sent to your email address, phone number, bank account).
• You need to wait for a few days for an employee to confirm you're legitimate.
• You make an offer.
• Someone takes it.
• The exchange swaps your assets (which are liabilities at this point), and takes a commission.

Sounds less convenient to me. I can agree that one might think it's more convenient at first, if they don't know how a no-KYC P2P exchange works.

[Zanab247]

They are like people who are working seriously to earn well in the future not knowing that they are working for their enemy by exposing their privacy in public. There are many enemies in some platform showcasing different things that will make people to expose their privacy so that they can have access to their progress or to cause them pain in a way they will  share their experience to stop other people not to fall victim. I guess, is not advisable to display your personal details to strangers in the community than to do everything possible within your knowledge to keep your privacy safe.

[PrivacyG]

people need to start making competing services to the ones that ask for KYC. rather than using existing businesses that ask for KYC and then trying to break bitcoin security feature of network wide audit of coin integrity

because if you cannot prove a coins origin back at its coin reward creation. it then becomes alot easier for people to counterfeit/copy/create new coin outside of the coin reward system. which is far more dangerous to every users bitcoin security. at the sake of people that want to keep giving their info away to services. and blaming bitcoin if their data gets passed around

dont blame bitcoin. blame the businesses

again the bitcoin network does not ask for your name/geo-location
so dont blame the bitcoin network
dont try to break the bitcoin network

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, but are you trying to say Mixers and overall Bitcoin privacy enhancement tools are 'breaking' the Bitcoin network?  How so?  Coins can still be tracked down to their origins even if they come from Mixers, even if they come from Joins.

Making competing services to the ones that ask for KYC is simply not possible because of Governments.  Binance was a service doing precisely this until a matter of months ago when they HAD to enforce KYC unless they wanted to be kicked out of some not so insignificant countries.  When you grow this big, the Government will want to earn something off you as well.  You will need to adapt to the Government, not the other way around.  If you do not adapt, you are screwed.

The thing is we do have options.  The point of this topic was I wanted to understand why some people choose not to give a damn when they have options.  You have Bisq, you have Mixers, you have stores that do not require KYC.  Then why use Binance, use KYC stores and post the Bitcoin address on this forum although you know the balance has been used for personal expenses?  This opens up a gate that is so unpredictable.  You never know who is playing around with all that information.

If you don’t care about your privacy, you are opening yourself up to an entire market of people who don’t care about you, and use you as you would a cow at the slaughter.

True.  You get someone messing up with your life just because they can and will.  Post your real address on the Internet for everybody to see, but then do not expect peace at your place.

The way I see it — knowing that privacy with Bitcoin (and on the internet in general) takes a good chunk of extra steps(and requires a good amount of knowledge) to achieve, people just end up turning a blind eye.

But there still are those people I am most intrigued about.  They would give you their ID and phone number if you told them they would enter a $5,000 Bitcoin raffle.  They would give Amazon (I did not have a better example) their KYC documents to buy condoms out of convenience.  So here comes my question.  Why?  What exactly makes it so easy to give up private information, unless they do not know how to value their information.

It's weird to think of a person who doesn't think of their privacy. It's either they are famous

Fame is going to make you value your privacy a million times more.  Because then you know there are some who definitely will reverse search everything and anything about you to gain access to information that is, to them, priceless.

But that's the thing with the argument. If you have nothing to hide, why hide it? Is it for the greater good?

Why would I want you or anyone else know what I am doing with my money and time.  I hide in my bedroom during play, does not mean I am abusing my partner or hiding corpses under the bed.  Why share that information with everyone.  Why would someone be fine with giving away all that information to strangers.  Some things are personal for a reason, including financial history.

Sure, pay the Government whatever you owe, but I think it is not normal to have the Government or any third party monitor you and question you and your choices.  Things may be going great right now for us, but what if tomorrow there is a coup in your country and things change radically.  Reminds me of that time Talibans took control and everyone who posted a certain kind of information on Facebook before (I think it was people who have a history of supporting a certain party) became their target.  They had nothing to hide after all, yet they became targets.

Why have an unnecessary headache.  Things on the Internet 'stay forever' and it is scary and could lead to grave consequences.  Not today, not tomorrow.  It could be the choices you made today that could affect you in a matter of decades.  Companies nowadays look your Facebook profile up and creep up on you as part of the normal recruiting procedures.  Creepy, no thanks.

Something tells me you haven't tried trading using a no-KYC P2P exchange. I challenge you verify this assertion by trying once.

I think mk4 is saying it is more convenient as in, you can trade instantly, you have customer support, you have close to zero fees, the volume is much larger and so on.  The registration procedure is much more complicated with a KYC Exchange, but the overall trading experience is of course much better than a Peer to Peer exchange.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

[BlackHatCoiner]

Sure, pay the Government whatever you owe

Well, that doesn't work in practice. If it's possible to avoid taxation, you will, and even if you choose to not avoid it, the government is definitely not going to be content with it. You either have financial privacy and avoid taxes to an extent, or let them know your activity and pay them the respective amount.

The "nothing to hide" argument might seem cunningly intrusive to personal freedom, but that's the treatment which backs taxation by; force. If you don't pay your taxes, you're going to eat breakfast with a police officer one morning. Therefore, anyone who wants some privacy is likely a suspect from a government's point of view. Criminals take innocent people with them.

[mk4]

Something tells me you haven't tried trading using a no-KYC P2P exchange. I challenge you verify this assertion by trying once.

I actually exclusively use no-KYC P2P exchanges when I was slowly cashing out funds through HodlHodl. (Though I'll admit there are a few exchanges that I KYCed in like 2017.)

Yes, KYC no-P2P exchanges sounds tedious the way you described it, but you only do the KYC verification once. Also, take into consideration the UI/UX experience for the end-user. Marketing aside — if no-KYC P2P exchanges was actually the overall better experience, then the masses would be using them rather than the Coinbases and such.

[Poker Player]

Well, I don't quite agree with the OP's position, as I have said in other posts, because I see that he poses it as an all or nothing and it is not so. There are degrees. Between all of your bitcoin being non-kyc passed through mixers, you run your own node etc., and all of your bitcoin being kyc and on top of that you reuse addresses, there are degrees.

For example. Have non-kyc Bitcoin and have another Bitcoin bought with KYC that has gone from the account of the exchange to a single address of yours, and there has remained only moving to return to the account of the exchange to sell.

Then it also makes me laugh because it reminds me of the fish that is in the fishbowl and thinks that the universe is the fishbowl. Nowadays the element that invades privacy the most is the cell phone that billions of people use without the slightest concern for it. Paying for everything with their cell phones and even posting selfies/videos of everything they do on Instagram/TikTok/Facebook.

Sure, pay the Government whatever you owe

Well, that doesn't work in practice. If it's possible to avoid taxation, you will, and even if you choose to not avoid it, the government is definitely not going to be content with it. You either have financial privacy and avoid taxes to an extent, or let them know your activity and pay them the respective amount.

This is key and let's talk straight. It is one thing if you are foolish enough to declare in a public forum that you evade taxes, but there is an unwritten law that whoever can avoid paying taxes does so. I have not met anyone who was paid under the table who has gone to declare it. For example, someone who worked as a waiter and was paid in cash without a contract. And as BlackHatCoiner says, even if you are one of that tiny percentage that has a very easy time not declaring without getting caught but you are so honest that you will declare, the government is not going to be happy with you either.

[pooya87]

I think a lot of people don't know what having privacy means for them because they haven't faced the consequences of not having it yet. It is like health, you don't pay attention to it until you lose your health. Then you realize what it meant to have it. We can ask the same question from these people: why do you not care about your health, why not eat healthy, exercise, etc.

To some extent this is true about those who keep their coins on exchanges. They don't really understand how big a mistake they are making because they haven't lost their coins yet. But when they do, it is already too late.

[franky1]

people need to start making competing services to the ones that ask for KYC. rather than using existing businesses that ask for KYC and then trying to break bitcoin security feature of network wide audit of coin integrity

because if you cannot prove a coins origin back at its coin reward creation. it then becomes alot easier for people to counterfeit/copy/create new coin outside of the coin reward system. which is far more dangerous to every users bitcoin security. at the sake of people that want to keep giving their info away to services. and blaming bitcoin if their data gets passed around

dont blame bitcoin. blame the businesses

again the bitcoin network does not ask for your name/geo-location
so dont blame the bitcoin network
dont try to break the bitcoin network

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, but are you trying to say Mixers and overall Bitcoin privacy enhancement tools are 'breaking' the Bitcoin network?  How so?  Coins can still be tracked down to their origins even if they come from Mixers, even if they come from Joins.

no no and no

im saying PEOPLE that want to break bitcoin by changing bitcoin protocols of the input output structure of transactions, where the use of UTXO should be compromised to prevent the "taint" tracking..
..is in their mind good privacy..
although it actually breaks bitcoins fundamental security of audit/accounting of coin (used to prevent counterfiet coins (more then 21m control limit))..
.. is thus against everyone elses coin security

..
separately: different scenario/argument/point to highlight
..
these same people should be warned that using mixers is a red flag which exchanges pick up on . thus using a mixer and then taking funds to an exchange causes the exchange to red flag the users account to actually look at with more scrutiny.. more so than a regular account user that has not used a mixer

thus trying to hide ends up getting you noticed more

my overal opinion is this

blockchains purpose is to have chains/taint of transactions to audit and secure funds that cant be created outside the rules or counterfeited or double spent
those not wanting "taint" dont want blockchains.. so those not wanting blockchains should go play on other networks and not try breaking bitcoin protocols

if they do want blockchains and realise one day that bitcoins blockchain does not ask for personal information.. then their other option is to stop using businesses that do ask for ID

as for other posts about privacy for tax evasion(illegal)/avoidance(legal)
bitcoin does not ask for ID and report it to tax agents

dont blame bitcoin about your tax status

if you want to avoid(legally) tax. learn tax law and find the loopholes
politicians and celebrities do it. so learn it.
if trum can learn it between playing golf. so can you. dont blame bitcoin for your desires to avoid tax. own your own decisions and prepare for your own decisions. dont blame something else for your inabilities

there are bigger ways to do it.
for instance 2009-2014 bitcoin was not defined legally as a currency. thus tax and regulatory law did not apply
lobby groups pushed to get bitcoin defined as a currency, which opened the doors to tax and regulation..

if enough people could lobby to reclassify bitcoin as not a currency but something else. such as a property. then it changes the tax/regulatory ability to evaluate you

Eg
currency- SEC
commodity -CFTF

for instance there is no US national regulator for real estate. its regulated at state level by policy set at state level.

defining what bitcoin is. can change its regulatory status of he businesses that operate around it

[aylabadia05]

Personally I really care about privacy when using Bitcoin. Various ways I do to secure the private key. Not enough one place, I keep another place as a backup. I mean, I really care PrivacyG.

Why do I care, because when Bitcoin delivers the system very well, then my job is just to maintain it well.
Those who don't care about this, maybe they won't know how when something bad will happen that they will regret for life.

This I briefly convey that I really care.

[Solosanz]

Personally I really care about privacy when using Bitcoin. Various ways I do to secure the private key. Not enough one place, I keep another place as a backup. I mean, I really care PrivacyG.

It's funny to see someone mixed up between privacy and security

What you're talking about is security, not privacy! is there anyone expose their own password to anyone? even a kid wouldn't did this.

Privacy is where you're don't leave any trace to anyone, including both offline and online. Avoiding to talk Bitcoin, wear anything that has a relation with Bitcoin and show your Bitcoin investment is a part of privacy.

[franky1]

Privacy is where you're don't leave any trace to anyone, including both offline and online. Avoiding to talk Bitcoin, wear anything that has a relation with Bitcoin and show your Bitcoin investment is a part of privacy.

but those privacy concerns are he concerns that only humans and business can change. its not related to the bitcoin protocol

however some silly people are trying to assume bitcoin protocol is at fault by being too transparent. making wild assumptions that bitcoin protocols are requesting and revealing peoples private lives(name location, sexual preference, purchase list of goods).. where they want to break bitcoins protocol to make it less transparent of what bitcoin does show publicly..
.. but doing that breaks bitcoin security(of the account/audit system of all coins back to their generation coin reward) that bitcoin security is the whole purpose of blockchains.

other blockchains that use "accounts" instead of OTXO's dont need a blockchain. because once spending the account. the old blocks are not needed. however the blochains purpose is to keep a record of spends so that you can be secure to know the coins you hold now did infact come from a true block reward in the past. thus securing your holdings as being real and valued. rather than an edit added in randomly to the ledger

[PrivacyG]

Well, that doesn't work in practice. If it's possible to avoid taxation, you will, and even if you choose to not avoid it, the government is definitely not going to be content with it. You either have financial privacy and avoid taxes to an extent, or let them know your activity and pay them the respective amount.

Except there are a lot of people doing work for cash, largest tax evasions happen in the nucleus of politics and banking and the more you get to be monitored and questioned, the more we are moving towards a dystopian world nobody wants to live in.  Because then everything can and will be questioned and you will have completely unnecessary headaches.

We can continue this argument endlessly.  Your Government wakes up tomorrow with the intent to prevent domestic abuse.  So they set up drones that monitor every window of every home in a particularly chosen area every single day at random hours.  Why do you have curtains, got something to hide?  Do not forget to say 'Hi' to your friendly drone 5 times a day!  Next year, I bet the new rule will be everyone has the obligation to have State-installed security cameras all around the house.  What are you, a racist or a Nazi supporter?  Or do you plan to bomb the city?  Then why hide?  The Government only wants prevention.

Want to go alone outside?  Sure, but a mini robot will follow you around and listen JUST to your surroundings to protect you.  Your Government-sent personal bodyguard that you must love!  Oh, you do not like it?  You must definitely be doing and saying things you should not.  Suspect.

I disagree that the possibility to avoid taxation leads to people evading it.  I think if anyone has the courage to do tax evasion they will find alternatives with or without financial privacy.  After all, most of the richest pay fewer taxes than we do because they have alternatives and laws are made in their favor.  I strongly believe that if we want to do something about it, we have to treat everyone fair.  It is completely unfair that our $400 transactions are treated as possibly terrorism funding and tax evasion but politicians get away with millions or even billions of dollars they stole.  See all those sets of papers that have been leaked in the past years.  See the Switzerland banking scandal from last year when everyone was pretending nobody knew politicians and billionaires are using Switzerland as a gateway to tax evasion and money laundering.

Moreover, I often look at the laws like some kind of software source code.  There will always be exploits and 'bugs' no matter how much you change them.  And people will continue using them to their own advantage since they .. well, evade taxes now.  Tell me how much of a difference there is between tax evasion and using exploits in laws to evade them.  Sure, legally you are fine, but you are still doing it.  There are a ton of businesses currently doing this.  The only way to solve this is probably by ruling anything that is not mentioned by the law as illegal.  But then things get creepy.

The same people are questioning us and applying very strict rules and laws that supposedly prevent their own actions.  Money laundering and terrorism funding.  Let us be honest and realistic here.  What I am going to say is currently pure speculation but Monero is currently only alive and unbanned because some important figures of the World's scene are using it.  Mark my words.

To me it is extremely dystopian if I think about a world where all my activity is monitored.  I decide to give my kid $10?  The Government knows where that came from and even what the kid is going to spend it onto.  Your kid has no bank account and you withdraw $10 and give it to the kid in cash?  What are you doing, using cash to buy drugs?  Then why do you not want to open your kid a bank account, got something to hide?  Someone wants to give me $50 for my birthday or borrow me $100 until next week?  Knock knock, IRS here, we want explanations.  Do you have a document signed by both parties proving this was a birthday gift or do you have a contract for borrowing money?  That is a world in which you are afraid to do anything because any action could have a strong reaction from the Government.  It is a world based on fear.  It is mind boggling and exhausting.

Everyone knows part of the inner workings of the Government and the Rich.  We all know that art is currently one of the biggest gateways to tax evasion and money laundering.  Yet, it is still going on and nobody gives a damn.  And you can not afford to evade taxes by buying art, nor can I.  They can.  The Rich, and implicitly the Government.  But they do give a damn if I mowed my neighbor's lawn because I ran out of food 3 days before my paycheck due to extremely high costs post inflation and earned $10 for mowing that I did not pay taxes for.  Where is the fair treatment.

Funniest thing is.  We will likely get to live this kind of dystopian world one day and financial crimes will continue to exist.  Scams, fraud, tax evasion, whatever you want.  They will know every single thing about every single citizen and you will continue to hear about the rich stealing money and evading billions.  But now everything is monitored already, so what happens is they will only get more and more intrusive.  Because if you wanted to prevent 99 things, why not prevent the 100th as well.  It is a scary loop of infinity.  The ones who suffer at the end of the day will, just like today, continue to be us.

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Regards,
PrivacyG