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BlackHatCoiner
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December 17, 2022, 02:06:37 PM
Merited by n0nce (1)
 #41

But it does mean only 3 people are securing the network, or don't you know how pools work.
It's 3 entities, but indeed, that's a reasonable concern. My answer to this is that decisions proposed by a pool need to be approved by each of their miners individually. If pool wants to double-spend, miners must disapprove it. There have been decentralized proposals, such as P2Pool, but perhaps they weren't recognized enough due to better offers from centralized pools? In the end, it's a free market, and miners' goal is to maximize profit.

If you think that a Proof-of-Stake algorithm gives solution to this problem you're gravely mistaken. Not only does it not, but it makes things worse. Can you imagine what can an exchange do with all that liquidity? Or, what a hacker can do if they rip them off (which is a usual phenomenon, see FTX)? Preminers, billionaires, exchanges. You suddenly have to trust their technical competence, otherwise your network's integrity is in question. On the other hand, you can't realistically steal a billion dollars worth of ASICs.

So long term, low bitcoin fees are just wishful thinking. It was not designed for that.
If you can't tax users with block subsidy, you can't force them pay transaction fees. Their activity is what determines low and high transaction fees. Yes, there might be security traded, but transaction fees are determined exclusively by supply and demand.

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December 17, 2022, 02:18:58 PM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (4)
 #42

I was referring to the person (NotATether), I was talking too.
Did you forget your meds today, as you are slower than normal. Tongue
Well, you also addressed 'the prime supporters' as a whole; therefore such broad statements can never be right. And indeed I proved to you that we have 'prime supporters' of PoW that do mine themselves, and even at home.

* Currently only 3 mining pool operators control over 51% of btc PoW hashrate daily. *
Even if that were the case, it doesn't mean that there are only 3 miners.
But it does mean only 3 people are securing the network, or don't you know how pools work.
That's absolutely wrong. Me and every other reasonable miner would switch pool immediately if we knew something was off with our pool operator. It's an easy and quick thing to do, literally doable in a few minutes. That's one of the reasons for pool operators not to do sketchy stuff like colluding to censor transactions and the like.
They are financially incentivized; they have to play by the rules, because it's so easy for people to switch that they could go bankrupt literally overnight if everyone left their pool. Miners have no obligation whatsoever to stick with their current pool if there's something cooking.

Cool; so facilitating mining in Europe would increase the demand for carbon-free electricity, flooding more money into the carbon-free electricity business, allowing the field to evolve faster, carbon-free energy to become more popular, cheaper and more stable. Net profit for everyone.
Bitcoin mining would massively help the transition to 100% renewable electricity. Change my mind.
And here is where you prove you don't understand energy infrastructure.
The real reason Europe is short on energy now is trying to move to carbon free energy,
Exactly. Because there's no buyer for excess energy in the day / summertime, they can't overbuild infrastructure to a point where there's enough energy in winter and at night, when the sun shines weaker and the wind doesn't blow.
Bitcoin mining is the only use case for periodic excess energy and the only business that can use it whenever it's available; buying off the 'peaks' of otherwise wasted electricity.
Large-scale mining operations in Europe would massively aid the energy transition.

BTC needs an energy efficient alternative to current PoW, if it wants to be taken seriously.
Are you aware that Bitcoin mining is the least of your worries if you believe energy usage is too high? Look around you; wasted energy everywhere. Focus on the important stuff, don't let FUDsters distract you from the bigger picture.
Bitcoin is a smaaaall fish my dude.
The Reason China banned PoW, is that while BTC may only use a small % of the entire world energy.
No single grid has access to all the world energy, and your miners for greed's sake like to suck up as much as possible in as few locations as possible.
So when they all move to Texas , they cause grid instability , which causes blackouts, until the miners are banned.
It's not true though, that 'they all move to Texas'. Some miners did, sure, but the hashrate is definitely spread out. And again, I don't know why you don't understand that increasing demand for something drives development of that something to meet those demands, which is always a good thing. Why do you want to stop development and improvement of infrastructure, in this case?

You don't have to believe any of it, the PoW bans are coming whether you grasp it or not.  Kiss

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rosemariemiller/2022/12/07/crypto-mining-ban-makes-new-york-potential-model-for-other-states/?sh=4e47794940e1
Quote
New York’s two-year ban on new proof-of-work cryptocurrency mining
Potential Model For Other States
Canada’s Manitoba province set an 18-month moratorium on new crypto-mining operations last month
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/white-house-condemns-energy-use-of-mining-bitcoin
Quote
The Office of Science and Technology asserts that bitcoin mining facilities create added stress on the power grid that leads to blackouts, fire hazards, and equipment deterioration. The report also claims that bitcoin miners will raise the average electricity cost for local consumers.
“eliminate” proof-of-work mining.
It's as if you are a supporter of governmental crackdowns on cryptocurrency (that's what it is, by the way - PoW is only an excuse; they will find other reasons to go after Ethereum et al.) and freedom of using your electricity however you want.
Pretty anti-Bitcoin, pro-totalitarianism and kind of weird to see in such a forum.



Plus in a PoS design anyone can stake to cover the fees.  Wink
Oh you're so wrong about this, though!
In Ethereum PoS at least, you first of all need 32ETH and be approved by the current group of stakers. They can just decide not to let new people stake if they want.
Also: 32ETH is roughly $35,000 USD; if you can afford that, you can also afford 10 (!) latest-gen Bitcoin ASICs.

The narrative that you can stake your little $50 investment meanwhile Bitcoin mining has such a high barrier to entry, is completely backwards.
You can get home miners for $200-$600, meanwhile staking costs much more and you can even be refused access. Meanwhile nobody can stop your submitted valid blocks.

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December 17, 2022, 05:13:01 PM
 #43

For example we have no blackouts here and the electricity price is about $0.002 per KWH.
So cheap? Shocked

Which country is that, if I may ask?
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December 17, 2022, 06:02:04 PM
 #44

Bitcoin, by design of its disappearing block subsidy, will eventually require WAY higher fees than that in order to remain the least bit secure.
So long term, low bitcoin fees are just wishful thinking. It was not designed for that.
In that long term things have changed so much that Bitcoin itself may be obsolete because cryptography has significantly changed. Just the cryptography we use today is nothing like what was used during WWI.
What's important is that so far over the past 13 years fees have gone down and despite reward going down from 50BTC to 6.25BTC there was no need for WAY higher fees!

For example we have no blackouts here and the electricity price is about $0.002 per KWH.
So cheap? Shocked
Which country is that, if I may ask?
Iran. But don't be surprised, that is what happens when a country has the most amount of resources in the world and the energy sector (basically all utility bills) is owned by the government not the private sector.

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BlackHatCoiner
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December 17, 2022, 06:18:44 PM
 #45

Iran. But don't be surprised, that is what happens when a country has the most amount of resources in the world and the energy sector (basically all utility bills) is owned by the government not the private sector.
I am surprised. Usually public sector is more inefficient than private. What's the tradeoff?

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December 17, 2022, 06:26:37 PM
Merited by n0nce (1)
 #46

I was referring to the person (NotATether), I was talking too.
Did you forget your meds today, as you are slower than normal. Tongue
Well, you also addressed 'the prime supporters' as a whole; therefore such broad statements can never be right. And indeed I proved to you that we have 'prime supporters' of PoW that do mine themselves, and even at home.

yeah, it's not like the Avengers haven't landed on this thread yet to take on Loki. Tongue

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December 17, 2022, 07:30:12 PM
 #47

Iran. But don't be surprised, that is what happens when a country has the most amount of resources in the world and the energy sector (basically all utility bills) is owned by the government not the private sector.
I am surprised. Usually public sector is more inefficient than private. What's the tradeoff?
The tradeoff is there are sanctions against Iran. Cheap energy is one thing, but wages are low too.
The fact that Iran doesn't have the most Bitcoin miners shows it's not as accessible as other countries.

Where I live, we've always had high taxes on energy, even when it came from our own soil. Got to love the taxes!
Only a few countries have very cheap energy, but the top 5 (Venezuela, Libya, Iran, Angola, Algeria) all have their own problems.

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December 18, 2022, 01:05:51 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2022, 01:34:53 AM by LegendaryK
 #48

Plus in a PoS design anyone can stake to cover the fees.  Wink
Oh you're so wrong about this, though!
In Ethereum PoS at least, you first of all need 32ETH and be approved by the current group of stakers. They can just decide not to let new people stake if they want.
Also: 32ETH is roughly $35,000 USD; if you can afford that, you can also afford 10 (!) latest-gen Bitcoin ASICs.

Just as proof of waste miners join pools to earn more,
Proof of Stake users join staking pools, where even as little as $50 of ethereum earns.
Right now the ethereum is earning about every ~4 days, with some pools.

No energy fees and no worries of bankruptcy like PoW miners.  Wink
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December 18, 2022, 03:37:23 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2022, 03:51:45 AM by pooya87
 #49

I am surprised. Usually public sector is more inefficient than private. What's the tradeoff?
The downside of private sector is that they work like any other capitalist, when global price goes up they increase local price as well and there is not much the government can do about that. See US for example, they increased domestic gas price in accordance with the global price surge without hesitation.

The government makes their profit by exporting energy at ridiculously high prices to others. The downside of that is that they get addicted to easy money and if that export is disrupted for any reason (eg. sanctions or price fall) they have no clue what to do about budget deficits so they print money and increase inflation (hence the terrible exchange rate).

The tradeoff is there are sanctions against Iran. Cheap energy is one thing, but wages are low too.
The wages are low if you convert it to $ due to exchange rate but not when it is compared to cost of living. For example the total of all utility bills I paid last month is barely 1% of what minimum wage salary is. The cost of my bimonthly electric bill was the cost of a small bag of chips.

The fact that Iran doesn't have the most Bitcoin miners shows it's not as accessible as other countries.
There are a lot of factors affecting that but being "accessible" is not one of them. For example Iranians usually go for altcoin mining with GPU rigs not so much bitcoin mining with ASICs after bitcoin-GPU-mining stopped being possible.

There has also been a lot of ups and downs over the years. For example when GPU mining was replaced by ASIC mining, many gave up mining altogether. Or two or three years ago when mining started being regulated and many foreigners were kicked out of the country for having illegal mining farms that stole electricity and never paid any taxes; that decreased our total hashrate. Or last year when had a weird electricity crisis for 2-3 months it slowed down the industry's growth.
But the industry is still growing every day, it just takes time for farms to build up.
Additionally the real statistics about Iran's economy is never going to be known, just like nobody knows how much oil we sell and how. Since mined bitcoins are also used officially as one of the currencies for international trades, the official hashrate will definitely not be made public.

My estimate is somewhere around 10% at this point and the mining community is working with the energy ministry to increase their capacity for example by building facilities that could use wasted gas flares for electricity generation, installing more solar panels, etc. and in the next 4-5 years we could easily be looking at a quarter of total hashrate.

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franky1
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December 18, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
 #50

Let’s say 10 years for the remainder. At 144 blocks per day that is 6,307,200 blocks in 10 years.  Divide 2.4 million BTC by that many blocks to get about 0.38 BTC per block.
there are 210,000 blocks per ~4 years
so 420k=8year
so 525k blocks for 10 years.... b'coz, math

also there are 1765275 coins left.
meaning 3.36 coins per block to share over 10 years

Create and maintain a list of all the bitcoin nodes that have been active for some period of time, maybe a year or some other time period.  Node owners must have a certain amount of time invested before becoming eligible for payments.  

ID registration in a pseudonymous world.. um. not gonna work.
and you cant just use a nodes user agent or IP. as thats just going to get cloned/spoofed.. change over time naturally thus untrackable reliably. unless you use some at worse  ID registration (or at best.. staked address)

As each block is completed, select one node, maybe at random, and the owner of the node gets 0.38 BTC.  Take that node off the list to received block rewards for some period of time to allow for sharing the wealth.

removing a cost mechanism for coin creation makes a coin no longer a value asset. but a lottery

if you want random payments based on length of staying in a system. go play the PoS lotto
bitcoin has already forked many PoS variants. so you already have systems that offer what you want.

Plus in a PoS design anyone can stake to cover the fees.  Wink
Oh you're so wrong about this, though!
In Ethereum PoS at least, you first of all need 32ETH and be approved by the current group of stakers. They can just decide not to let new people stake if they want.
Also: 32ETH is roughly $35,000 USD; if you can afford that, you can also afford 10 (!) latest-gen Bitcoin ASICs.

people can 'pool' stake...
.. just like PoW no longer functions with solo-mining.. just saying

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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December 18, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
 #51

Your suggestion for an alternative method for distributing new bitcoins is an interesting one. One potential issue with this approach is that it relies on a central list of eligible nodes and a process for selecting them to receive new bitcoins. This could potentially lead to problems such as centralization, where a small group of nodes is disproportionately selected to receive new bitcoins, or manipulation of the selection process by node owners.

Another alternative approach that has been proposed is to use a proof of stake (PoS) system, in which new bitcoins are distributed based on the amount of bitcoin that a user holds, rather than the amount of computing power they contribute to the network. This can potentially be more energy efficient than proof of work, as it does not require miners to perform resource-intensive calculations in order to earn new bitcoins. However, PoS systems can also have their own set of challenges and trade-offs, such as the potential for users with large amounts of bitcoin to dominate the validation process and increase their control over the network.

Ultimately, the choice of which method to use for distributing new bitcoins is a complex one, and there are pros and cons to each approach. It is important to carefully consider the potential impacts and trade-offs of each approach in order to determine which one is the most suitable for a particular cryptocurrency.
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December 18, 2022, 05:20:58 PM
 #52

Your suggestion for an alternative method for distributing new bitcoins is an interesting one.

...

Ultimately, the choice of which method to use for distributing new bitcoins is a complex one, ...

Get your chatGPT autogenerated post out of this thread.

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December 18, 2022, 05:59:45 PM
Merited by n0nce (1)
 #53

Interesting how two btc supporters are only able to talk about ethereum.

Maybe start a new topic and quit derailing this one.

Topic is Replacement for POW in BTC.

Try and focus.

Let say this as simply as possible.

There is no replacement for pow for btc.

so lock the thread and call it a day.

BTW I would argue that the pressure on energy use caused by pow is yet one more reason we are a step closer to boundless energy in the form of fusion.

Pay attention to this old quote

"necessity is the mother of invention"


POW is one more example of humanity's war on entropy.

So to restrict POW is to sit in the fucking corner with your face to the wall and wait for death.



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December 18, 2022, 11:56:09 PM
Merited by philipma1957 (1)
 #54

There is no replacement for pow for btc.
BTW I would argue that the pressure on energy use caused by pow is yet one more reason we are a step closer to boundless energy in the form of fusion.
Pay attention to this old quote
"necessity is the mother of invention"

POW is one more example of humanity's war on entropy.
So to restrict POW is to sit in the fucking corner with your face to the wall and wait for death.

Funny thing, the ability of people to survive is
not dependent on strength
not dependent on speed
not even dependent on intellect,

It is dependent on the people ability to adapt to a changing environment.

You are stating as a matter of fact , that BTC network is unable and unwilling to adapt to a world where energy resources are strained.
You're basically predicting BTC death.

Personally , I see PoW as a ridiculous outdated design , that should be thrown out as soon as possible.
Even I would point out , if you wanted to keep the outdated PoW design,
your options are only.
1.  Worldwide Regulation limiting who is allowed to mine and a limit on how much energy they can draw.

Hardly a solution about freedom, but if you wanted freedom BTC would evolve to the superior Proof of Stake design.
Due to BTC supporters desire to keep the old proof of waste design, regulation and control , is BTC network only survival option.
Either that or just wait for the government bans to kill the PoW networks.
 
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December 19, 2022, 12:20:01 AM
Last edit: December 19, 2022, 12:31:17 AM by n0nce
 #55

Plus in a PoS design anyone can stake to cover the fees.  Wink
Oh you're so wrong about this, though!
In Ethereum PoS at least, you first of all need 32ETH and be approved by the current group of stakers. They can just decide not to let new people stake if they want.
Also: 32ETH is roughly $35,000 USD; if you can afford that, you can also afford 10 (!) latest-gen Bitcoin ASICs.
Just as proof of waste miners join pools to earn more,
Proof of Stake users join staking pools, where even as little as $50 of ethereum earns.
That's not comparable, though. When you pool mine, your hardware stays in your custody at all times, meanwhile if you do pooled staking, you don't have custody of your coins. It also doesn't solve the problem that in PoS, existing validators can deny access to a new (pooled or not) staker.

Pooled staking has a significantly lower barrier to entry when compared to solo staking, but comes with additional risk by [!!!] delegating all node operations to a third-party [!!!], and with a fee. Solo staking gives full sovereignty and control over the choices that go into choosing a staking setup. Stakers never have to hand over their keys, and they earn full rewards without any middlemen taking a cut.

[...]

The gold standard for staking should always be individuals running validators on their own hardware whenever possible.

Point still stands that Bitcoin mining is much more accessible to join. There is no restriction on who can join; as long as they submit valid blocks. No matter if it's one per second or 1gazillion per second.

the superior Proof of Stake design
It can't be superior and it never will, because it doesn't work. PoS is not a decentralized consensus mechanism, therefore it cannot be a replacement for PoW, and it definitely can't be better.

I don't understand the purpose of this thread; we have 13 pages of [Megathread] The long-known PoW vs. PoS debate.

There is also: 'Why btc cannot move pow to pos?'.
It can move, and actually, it does have forked to Proof-of-Stake, which failed miserably: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoinpos/

The reason why reasonable people don't want it to switch to Proof-of-Stake is because they're reasonable. Proof-of-Stake, if you didn't know, comes with significant downsides. Here's a useful thread: [Megathread] The long-known PoW vs. PoS debate.

Also, the TL;DR differences between these two mechanisms:
Quote from: me, stackexchange
Proof-of-Work

 1. Entrance of new voters can't be forbidden. All that's needed is energy and machines that are capable of calculating hashes. Therefore, a miner who once owned 1% of the hash rate, can't make sure he'll maintain his percentage forever.
 2. You can't try to cheat without being punished, because you're spending energy. For example, if a malicious miner, who owns 10% of the hash rate, tries to reverse a transaction 6 blocks deep, and fails, his real cost is equal with the income he could have had if he had chosen to mine bitcoin; he spent energy for nothing.
 3. It's very difficult to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network (e.g., ASICs, GPUs etc.)

Proof-of-Stake

 1. Entrance of new voters is down to the stakers' permission. A staker who owns 1% of the total coins in circulation (presuming the total supply is fixed) can retain the same voting power overtime, if he just chooses to hold them.
 2. You can cheat without being punished. That's known as Nothing-at-stake problem[1].
 3. It's much easier, compared to Proof-of-Work, to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network. For instance, say an attacker hacked an exchange. He'd instantly gain a lot of voting power.

One more core difference is that Proof-of-Stake doesn't give a solution to the Byzantine Generals' problem[2]. That's why it suffers from producing consensus, and that's why it's commonly referred to as "subjective mechanism"[3]; not objective as Proof-of-Work.


  [1]: https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/2402/what-exactly-is-the-nothing-at-stake-problem
  [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20090309175840/http://www.bitcoin.org/byzantine.html
  [3]: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity

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December 19, 2022, 05:35:25 AM
Last edit: December 19, 2022, 06:53:53 AM by LegendaryK
 #56

Quote from: me, stackexchange
Proof-of-Work

 1. Entrance of new voters can't be forbidden.
     All that's needed is energy and machines that are capable of calculating hashes.
     Entrance is forbidden because of the Costs required to purchase ASICS, Costs to House ASICS, Costs to Power ASICS.
    Tell someone making $13 per day that they can be a bitcoin miner.   Cheesy
    


2. You can't try to cheat without being punished, because you're wasting energy.
     PoW miners go bankrupt without cheating,
    the danger is the 3 mining pool operators that can cause a loss of trust in BTC and
    make an insanely larger profit in shorting BTC thru other markets.


 3. It's very difficult to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network (e.g., ASICs, GPUs etc.)
    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Hardly:  https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/malaysian-police-steamroll-1point25-million-worth-of-bitcoin-mining-rigs.html
    Malaysian police destroying 1,069 bitcoin mining rigs with a steamroller
    Due to PoW energy waste the ASICS are incredibly easy to locate and steamroll / steal.



Proof-of-Stake

 1. Entrance of new voters is down to the stakers' permission.
    A staker who owns 1% of the total coins in circulation can retain the same voting power overtime, if he just chooses to hold them.
    If PoW supporters ever bothered to learn anything about PoS , you know that most PoS coins go dormant after staking for a
    predetermined time, this would be akin to turning an asic off for a few hours,
    their is no constant control over the network like in the PoW design.


 2. You can cheat without being punished. That's known as Nothing-at-stake problem[1].
      Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
     The N@S Myth, that has yet to occur, reasons why it does not occur is
     1 way of forking and preforking and more preforking over and over does nothing but waste energy
     FYI:  for this little myth to even be attempted required a Multi-staking PoS client
     There are none, and I believe someone in the past even asked Maxwell to write one to prove his N@S theory,
     and we have yet to see one.
     Simple truth a Multistaking PoS client would do nothing but be a bigger waste of energy than your PoW.
     Letting a coin stake, then rest the predetermined time, lets you earn more faster.
     As far as cheat / double spend which is not the same as N@S.
     Ethereum put in code that destroys your coins, if you doublespend, destroying your entire investment,
     it would be as if a PoW miner tried to doublespend and their warehouse full of ASICS just blew up.


 
 3. It's much easier, compared to Proof-of-Work, to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network.
     For instance, say an attacker hacked an exchange. He'd instantly gain a lot of voting power.
    If an Hacker took an exchange coin PoW or PoS, he sell them .
    If a Hacker was dumb enough to steal a PoS coins and tried to be a staker,
    his stolen PoS coins and IP address would lead to a faster arrest and recovery of those coins,
    staking would be the dumbest thing he could do.
    Plus any blockchain can have code added that refuses transactions for a specific address,
    leaving the coins in an address until such an update could be put out would cut the thief off from his funds,
    until he was captured and he be forced to return the coins.
    PoS or PoW coins, selling is the smart hacker only real option.

    
One more core difference is that Proof-of-Stake doesn't give a solution to the Byzantine Generals' problem[2]. That's why it suffers from producing consensus, and that's why it's commonly referred to as "subjective mechanism"[3]; not objective as Proof-of-Work.

Your BTC Proof of Waste design is depending on 3 people.
Dude PoW has no real security anymore, just hope and pray , those 3 guys don't decide to screw you.

Ethereum switch to PoS has been very smooth, they have no problems with consensus.  Smiley
Algorand PoS achieves transaction finality in 4 seconds, and their can never be a doublespent coin with their PoS design,
Bitcoin PoW can never achieve transaction finality and doublespends forever a danger in the PoW design.

Sorry PoW is a technical dead end with no real evolution for years.
Which is why the btc community should really start looking for a Replacement for POW.

It does not have to be PoS, but time is growing short and something else will be needed soon.

BTC could always survive as a token on the ethereum and cardano blockchains.  Cheesy


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December 19, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
Merited by n0nce (1)
 #57

You are stating as a matter of fact , that BTC network is unable and unwilling to adapt to a world where energy resources are strained.
You're basically predicting BTC death.

As a matter of fact, the world doesn't fucking care about crypto algorithms in a bear market. Why do you think all the spotlight is on FTX and not on "the latest botched attempt by the EU to ban proof-of-work mining" (which by the way was scrapped after fierce opposition to it)?

Expect a state of irrelevance to debates like these until at least 2024.

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December 19, 2022, 12:10:26 PM
Last edit: December 19, 2022, 12:45:42 PM by n0nce
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #58

~
First of all, please learn using proper quotes.
Secondly; you can't be this stupid. I'll answer these questions one last time, but I do feel like wasting my time already. This has been answered to you enough times. You seem proper brainwashed.

1. Entrance of new voters can't be forbidden.
     All that's needed is energy and machines that are capable of calculating hashes.
    Entrance is forbidden because of the Costs required to purchase ASICS, Costs to House ASICS, Costs to Power ASICS.
    Tell someone making $13 per day that they can be a bitcoin miner.   Cheesy
   

It's beyond me how you can think something being expensive is the same as being forbidden. Does this mean you believe it's forbidden to buy luxury cars or what?
Also, I said this already: someone making $13 per day can't afford native / solo staking. If they're going to put their money in someone else's hands, they can actually also 'stake' BTC on some platforms just the same or rent hashrate.

2. You can't try to cheat without being punished, because you're wasting energy.
    PoW miners go bankrupt without cheating,
    the danger is the 3 mining pool operators that can cause a loss of trust in BTC and
    make an insanely larger profit in shorting BTC thru other markets.

This is way too vague and incorrect to even be considered an argument. We explained the basically non-issue of pools many times before; and you even advocate for staking pools yourself. In fact, pool staking drives centralization, towards fewer large pools, more than pool mining. I hope it's obvious, why. Mining BTC doesn't give you more ASICs out of thin air

3. It's very difficult to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network (e.g., ASICs, GPUs etc.)
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Hardly:  https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/malaysian-police-steamroll-1point25-million-worth-of-bitcoin-mining-rigs.html
    Malaysian police destroying 1,069 bitcoin mining rigs with a steamroller
    Due to PoW energy waste the ASICS are incredibly easy to locate and steamroll / steal.

Only because it's been done, doesn't mean it's easier to accomplish. A call to Vitalik suffices to freeze your millions of staked Ether, meanwhile the effort to tear down someone's business and steal their hardware needs at least some high-level court orders.

Let's put it this way: if the police is able / allowed to steal a whole mining operation, they're also allowed to get your PoS coins frozen.

Proof-of-Stake

 1. Entrance of new voters is down to the stakers' permission.
    A staker who owns 1% of the total coins in circulation can retain the same voting power overtime, if he just chooses to hold them.
    If PoW supporters ever bothered to learn anything about PoS , you know that most PoS coins go dormant after staking for a
    predetermined time, this would be akin to turning an asic off for a few hours,
    their is no constant control over the network like in the PoW design.

How does this respond to the criticism that 'Entrance of new voters is down to the stakers' permission' at all?

2. You can cheat without being punished. That's known as Nothing-at-stake problem[1].
      Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
     
     Ethereum put in code that destroys your coins, if you doublespend, destroying your entire investment,
     it would be as if a PoW miner tried to doublespend and their warehouse full of ASICS just blew up.

Destroying someone's investment if they do something wrong is a huge risk; I can definitely see some investors preferring to buy ASICs; where if they misconfigure something, run old code etc., they only lose electricity but nobody comes to steal their ASIC installation. So I don't see slashing as a very positive point for PoS.

3. It's much easier, compared to Proof-of-Work, to steal the units that contribute to the security of the network.
     For instance, say an attacker hacked an exchange. He'd instantly gain a lot of voting power.
       If an Hacker took an exchange coin PoW or PoS, he sell them .
    If a Hacker was dumb enough to steal a PoS coins and tried to be a staker,
    his stolen PoS coins and IP address would lead to a faster arrest and recovery of those coins,
    staking would be the dumbest thing he could do.
    Plus any blockchain can have code added that refuses transactions for a specific address,

Did you just admit that your preferred PoS coins not only aren't usable without leaking your IP address (terrible for privacy) and that you can just blacklist addresses? These are terrible features for a decentralized digital currency!
   
One more core difference is that Proof-of-Stake doesn't give a solution to the Byzantine Generals' problem[2]. That's why it suffers from producing consensus, and that's why it's commonly referred to as "subjective mechanism"[3]; not objective as Proof-of-Work.

Your BTC Proof of Waste design is depending on 3 people.
Wrong. Pool operators can disappear; it's literally no problem, there are many more pools which we can switch to in a matter of seconds and we can even create our own pools at any time. You're totally overestimating the importance and risks of pooled mining, meanwhile have no concerns leaving your actual keys with a pooled staker.
If I remember correctly, some mining software even allowed you to enter multiple pools' details and it would switch by itself if a pool had some downtime.

Meanwhile un-staking and re-staking PoS coins is a whole ordeal, involving existing stakers having to approve you.

Dude PoW has no real security anymore, just hope and pray , those 3 guys don't decide to screw you.
Absolutely wrong. How do you think pool operators can screw us? Care to elaborate? In my book, they're completely dependent on the miners, so they have to do their best to keep miners with them, in terms of performance, fees and customer support.

Meanwhile, PoS staking pools literally own users' coins and can just run with them. No mining pool can take away our hardware.

Ethereum switch to PoS has been very smooth, they have no problems with consensus.  Smiley
Algorand PoS achieves transaction finality in 4 seconds, and their can never be a doublespent coin with their PoS design,
Bitcoin PoW can never achieve transaction finality and doublespends forever a danger in the PoW design.
Only because they work fine (for now), doesn't mean they have a working decentralized consensus mechanism. Banks, PayPal and WeChat also allow you to transfer funds without working decentralized consensus algorithm.
Proving that an algorithm works is an academic / scientific task; it's proven by cryptography and not by 'it works' or 'it runs smooth'.

It does not have to be PoS, but time is growing short and something else will be needed soon.
Why so? And why are you so in a hurry? I don't see anything that would make a switch more urgent right now than anytime in the past.

BTC could always survive as a token on the ethereum and cardano blockchains.  Cheesy
Let me put it this way: If Bitcoin were to go bust, Ethereum and Cardano would cease to exist. Watch market trends; beyond your altcoin bubbles and especially beyond the cryptocurrency bubble as a whole. People see this whole space as risky assets for investment.
Any time there was a crypto bear market, altcoins as a whole crashed much harder than Bitcoin. Some people take out their crypto investment completely back into fiat, and others shift from alt to Bitcoin.

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philipma1957
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December 19, 2022, 02:04:38 PM
Merited by Cricktor (1)
 #59

There is no replacement for pow for btc.
BTW I would argue that the pressure on energy use caused by pow is yet one more reason we are a step closer to boundless energy in the form of fusion.
Pay attention to this old quote
"necessity is the mother of invention"

POW is one more example of humanity's war on entropy.
So to restrict POW is to sit in the fucking corner with your face to the wall and wait for death.

Funny thing, the ability of people to survive is
not dependent on strength
not dependent on speed
not even dependent on intellect,

It is dependent on the people ability to adapt to a changing environment.

You are stating as a matter of fact , that BTC network is unable and unwilling to adapt to a world where energy resources are strained.
You're basically predicting BTC death.

Personally , I see PoW as a ridiculous outdated design , that should be thrown out as soon as possible.
Even I would point out , if you wanted to keep the outdated PoW design,
your options are only.
1.  Worldwide Regulation limiting who is allowed to mine and a limit on how much energy they can draw.

Hardly a solution about freedom, but if you wanted freedom BTC would evolve to the superior Proof of Stake design.
Due to BTC supporters desire to keep the old proof of waste design, regulation and control , is BTC network only survival option.
Either that or just wait for the government bans to kill the PoW networks.
 


You are an amazing gaslighter.  I will actually merit your post for its brilliance in gaslighting.

"It is dependent on the people ability to adapt to a changing environment."


The above quote is is perfectly true.

The problem is you are not stating this below:

and the adaption will be the development of fusion supplemented by solar driven by the need for power to mine pow.

You are trying to prevent invasion.

POS = piece of shit

it is simple an unregulated bond backed by nothing.


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December 19, 2022, 05:58:32 PM
Merited by philipma1957 (2)
 #60

Tell someone making $13 per day that they can be a bitcoin miner.
Lol. Tell them to stake then. Oh wait, they can't. That requires you to have a shitload amount of money; you hand over custody otherwise.  

If PoW supporters ever bothered to learn anything about PoS , you know that most PoS coins go dormant after staking for a predetermined time, this would be akin to turning an asic off for a few hours
You can't sleep at night, knowing that people use energy in manners you disapprove of, can you?

The N@S Myth, that has yet to occur, reasons why it does not occur is
And a 51% has yet to occur, but you're the one who's asserted that it will sometime. You're contradicting yourself.

Did you just admit that your preferred PoS coins not only aren't usable without leaking your IP address (terrible for privacy) and that you can just blacklist addresses? These are terrible features for a decentralized digital currency!
Not in Legendary's fantastic, not dystopian at all world where the government knows the best for every individual. Privacy is just an illusion. You think you need it. You don't. Period.

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